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Water Pump packing


HarryJ

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There is nothing wrong with generic steam packing. Most marine places have graphited packing but usually it is square or rectangular in dimension. If you buy the smallest one available you can wind several pieces around the shaft and the gland nut will squeeze it together. I was able to find some thin flat packing rings that were the right diameter for my pump shaft. I just used three of them back to back. I cut them and spaced the cuts equadistant aroung the circle. The seem to work fine but certainly no better than common cotton string with graphite and oil worked into it. The main thing to remember is that these pumps were designed to leak. A small drop of water seeping out kept the shaft lubricated and it didn't wear out then. A single drop a day is sufficient.

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HarryJ,

Tinindian is correct. Graphite packing is self lubricating, and works exceptionally well with a little waterproof grease.

Use the largest square you can fit into the gland and angle (scarp) cut your own rings to fit the diameter of the pump shaft. Offset the cuts and snug the gland nut until the leak just stops. It will leak a drop or two per minute after it wears in. Shoot one shot of grease into the gland (if you have a fitting & don't overdo it) and you are done.

Teflon packing will work as a temporary fix, but will not hold it's shape. It requires repeated adjustment which often results in wearing grooves in the shaft.

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Tinindian,,,Mark,,,,thanks !!!! To be honest I have only packed two water pumps in my life and, true to form, neither one is properly done. The one on the Model "A" I can live with; however, the unit on the "L" Lincoln leaks like ...well. I have tightened it several times since I restored it six years ago. Water still pores out both packings. I used Teflon rings to pack this pump. Tinindian, thanks for the tip reguarding a drip every once and a while. Did you use something like an 1/8" string to pack a pump? Mark, recently I got to look at a '27 Marmon water pump, it has a grease fitting connected to the packing chamber. The other cars I have don't have this feature. I was not aware of the need to lubricate the packing area. I need to repack both the '21 Studebaker and the '28 Lincoln. I need ya'll to talk me through this job. The last picture shows the five different packings I have in my possesion.

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The multi strand one is what I would use if I had any. The big trick in using it is to wind it around and around until you cannot start the threads of the packing nut by hand. Then I put an open end wrench over the shaft and use it to press the gland nut towards the threads while I turn the nur wigh another wrench or spanner. This way you only have to tighten the nut part of a turn to stop the coolant from running out. I drive my car about a thousand miles a month and find that I have to tighten the gland nut about one eighth to one quarter of a turn every five or six months. I have to repack mine about every six years. about eight times since I have been driving the car. Also I always use a 50/50 mixture of antifreeze and change it every three years. Until 2000 I always used ethyelene glycol antifreeze but since my wife's car uses the new yellow stuff I changed to it (I didn't want to be bothered with two kinds) and have had no problems at all.

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The multi-strand packing clearly states it is for valve stem use. Think how many revolutions over a day a faucet valve stem turns, now how many turns does your water pump shaft turn in an hour of driving? Use the packing type without the string because the strings will eventully cut into the shaft and then you will need a more expensive fix to keep the pump from leaking. When the Ford Model A was new, Ford warned against using stranded packing for this very same reason

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After 490,000 miles I would still use the string packing. Easiest to use, easiest to add to and I still hav't marked my pump shaft. Using 50/50 mixture of antifreeze helps because it has rust inhibitors and water pump lubricant built into it.

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Tinindian thanx I am leaning toward the small diameter graphite impregnated cabled yarns. DavidAU thanx, can you reccomend a grease? Mark Shaw thanx for the McM reference. I will proceed to attempt to repack the "L" Lincoln pump. I will publish my attempt here.

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Hi Harry

I would be using a waterpump specific grease such as listed on page 11 of Restoration supplies catalog. http://www.restorationstuff.com/

but any of the major grease suppliers would have a waterproof type grease. just smear enough on the graphite string to make it bind togeather. Some English books recomend tallow however I think the calcium based grease would be better.

I am shortly going to fit a new waterpump shaft in my 31 Rolls Royce P2 and it uses 2 glands that look like small donuts made up from graphite impregnated string. They are kept apart by a spring loaded device and the gap between them is filled with waterproof grease.

The glands can be made in a small press that consists of turning up a section of rod the same dia as the pump shaft, two end sections that slide on the shaft with an external dia. the same as the pump body and an outer tube with the same size as internal size as the pump body.

The two end sections are placed on the shaft, greased string is wound tightly around the shaft until the approx. required mass in achieved and then the outer tube is slipped on. The end sections are pushed in with a vice or press and the string will become a solid lump (little donut.) If the gland is not wide enough, a further section of string can be added by unraveling the string, adding more in and re-pressing it or if it is too big, just cut a section of string off and re-press it.

I will try to add a photo to show what I am trying to explain.

David

1923 Metallurgique

1931 Rolls Royce Phantom 2 continental

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DavidAU..............That is awesome,,,,, Rolls had a very good design for it's time. Just this afternoon I ordered several feet of packing from Restoration Supply in both the 1/8" and 1/4" sizes. When this order arrives I intend to rebuild the "L" pump. An antique car friend nearby has agreed to share some of his water pump grease with me. Here are some pictures of the water pump as I pull the front end bearing off and a close up of the brass gland nut.

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Today, I completed dismantling the "L" water pump. I rebuilt this pump along with the one on the car some six or seven years ago. My memory failed me as it took a bit of study to remember the proceedure. When I rebuilt the two pumps I packed them with teflon packing; and, as I said, at the start the unit on the car has leaked from the day I installed it no matter how tight a turn the packing nut. So now I am going to remove the new teflon packing and install old fashioned graphited cabled yarn. A friend of mine and fellow restorer shown me a "Skinned Knuckles" article which recommends against teflon; concurrent with that everyone that has responded to this post has also refered me to the old fashioned packing. Also, when I rebuilt the pumps I failed to ram down or form the packing to the space in the gland chamber. The first picture shows the proceedure for dismantling the rear bearing assembly. This is one of the proceedures I had to figure out again. Turns out there are two tapped holes in the rear hub/plate in which you screw in a couple of bolts which push the hub off as they press against the underlying bearing housing. The second picture shows the packing chamber filled with the teflon packing. The last shot shows the teflon rings removed.

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How about some pictures of the Rolls water pump? It sounds like an interesting unit.

I have a 27 Marmon E-75 that has some interesting design features. It is an aluminum unit that mounts on a gearbox which also turns the generator and distributor. The pump does not have any bearings itself as there are two ballbearings in the little gearbox. There is a ribbed brass bushing on the shaft where the pump packing seats. If you were to get any bad wear you could just change the bushing instead of the whole shaft.

The packing is rather wide, being about 3/4". In the center of the packing there are two brass washers with little nibs that keep an open space between them. This line up with a screw in grease cup and allows the shaft to be lubricated. The width of the packing allows the ends to be tightened down and still retain a reservoir of grease between them. The orginal packing was a series of woven cloth washers (asbestos?). I will be replacing this with the graphite type , being careful to keep the brass washers lined up with the grease cup.

The aluminum water pump housing has seen better days. Galvanic corrosion has put some fairly large pits on the interior surfaces. Fortunately the housing is still structurally sound. I have coated the interior of the pump with an epoxy bathtub refinishing product. This should prevent any future galvanic corrosion and has filled the rough pits.

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Well this is the P2 pump. Not a pretty sight when I got inside. It has not been run since about 1959 and is very corroded. When I tried to pry the two halves apart after drilling out the bolts and two weeks soaking in penetrating oil all I did was break off part of the flange. Two weeks more in the oil, mount it in the vise, put a 3' length of tube in the outlet hole and swing. Nothing. Heat up pump body with Map gas bottle until it was nearly melting and after 20mins. it finally moved and started to rotate and I could work it back and forward until it came apart. The two parts had literally grown together. The inside of the pump is very corroded and these I will weld up and reface. The bronze impellor is also slightly worn as the thrust block was long gone and this will be built up also. The broken flange will also be welded back on and cleaned up so should be like new when finished.

I'll add another post with a few more photos

David

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DavidAU.....thanx, these pictures are quite interesting. I feel your pain on the broken flange. On one of the Lincoln pumps and one of the light six pumps "Mr. Badwrench" broke a flange. Nickelroadster, thanx for the views of the Marmon pump. I need to study these pictures further. The following pictures are of the two pages in the Lincoln service bulletins reguarding packing the water pump. (for some reason my scans are coming out blurred). Basically the bulletins say ram down 14.5" of 1/8" packing with the Tool No. 5Z-1446.

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DavidAU, I just re-read your description of dismanteling the RR water pump. I'm sure this issue has been addressed in this forum before. Could it be done without noticable damage to the castings? The guy that does automotive machining for me recently "Deep Fat Fried" a Ferrari engine to get it apart! It took four or five heat-cool cycles to finally break it free. It was literally boiled in penetrating oil. ( each heat/cool cycle took 6 to 8 hours)

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Harry, I hadn't read about the "Deep Fried" method before but I tried everything I could think of. At the start I tried spraying the inside section with Locktite "Freeze Release" to try to shrink this section. This product I have found to be brilliant for the release of frozen bolts and nuts etc. but the fact that one section of the pump slides about 3/4" into the other was just too much for it to work. This is a machined joint about 3 inches in dia. X 3/4" deep with minimal clearance as it has no gasket to keep the water out. When I gave it the freeze treatment and drove steel wedges between the flange and the body it came out about 1/8" and then stuck solid. After a bit more pressure on the wedges the flange cracked and it was after that I embarked upon a process of heating it up and dropping it in penetrating oil. I did this about 4 times over two weeks and it still would not move. After that I got desperate, decided I had nothing too loose as it was no good the way it was and gave it the superheat and big lever. When it finally did move and come apart you can see the sections where the two sides have fused togeather through corrosion and then torn apart with my efforts. When I re-assemble it I will consider machining a groove it the end and fitting a large O ring to prevent water penetration in the future

David

1923 Metallurgique

1931 Rolls Royce Phantom 2 Continental

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DavidAU, I,ve never heard of "freeze release". The water pumps of the "L" Lincoln and the '21 Studebaker light six are of the same basic design as the Rolls with the concentric 3/4" deep joint. In my opinion you had a really tough joint to break...............Aluminum/aluminum. The "L" Lincoln is Iron/Iron and the "light six" is aluminum/Iron. I don't guess Rolls Royce still has the patterns for the water pump or the drawings ?

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Harry, This is the Freeze & Release product http://loctitefreezeandrelease.com/ Really is great stuff and reasonably priced. I believe that a new waterpump can be ordered through one of the English RR parts dealers however no prices are avalible and I believe they would be very, very expensive and would therefore be the final alternative. A simple short cast aluminium tube coming from the pump to the block costs 220 English pounds so the pumps would be right up there. Not only that, mine has the original engine number stamped on it (like every other part on the motor) so I would prefer to keep it if I can.

David

1923 Metallurgique

1931 Rolls Royce Phantom 2 Continental

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  • 2 weeks later...

Note of provenance......The water pump on the car I am " preserving" came from a parts engine I acquired several years ago. The serial # of the parts engine I am refering to is #49498. The car I am preserving is #49600. The water pump on the workbench in the preceeding photos are of the pump off #49600. When I rebuilt a water pump for the " driver/preservation ", I practiced on the worst pump first. That was the pump off #49600. I then rebuilt the best of the two pumps #49498; which is on the car.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Friday, I received the 1/8" packing from Restoration Supply. The 1/4" is on back order. This morning I picked up where I left off in the water pump rebuild. The work bench had not changed much since the last post. I started out cleaning up some mating surfaces and studying what I had, in anticipation of restoring it. Today I have cleaned up the mating surfaces on the "L" pump and have packed one water pump gland. It seems the 14.5" of packing required called for in the early Lincoln literature is 1/4"; as it took ~ 30" of 1/8" to pack the chamber. Here we go again! Alright folks,What kind of goooop do you recommend to seal up the water pump joint?

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Today Nickelroadster came over bringing some water pump grease and plenty of good car talk and we finished rebuilding the Lincoln water pump. He brought some 1/4" packing; however, I stuck with using the 1/8". Note, when I packed the rear gland I used some old fashioned wheel packing grease. I used the water pump grease on the front gland. I hope to swap pumps on the car sometime in the next week. I will continue this post once the rebuilt pump is on the car; keeping you informed as to it's performance. By the way, I used "The Right Stuff" to seal up the pump and David AU, have you got any recent pics of progress on the RR?

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  • 1 month later...

I am also rebuilding the water pump for my E75. the casting is in excellent shape. The only thing is that I did'nt even realize that I was missing the ribbed brass bush that is on the waterpump drive shaft and the brass washers that allowed grease to reach the shaft.I was puzzled by the packing and grease zerk until I saw your pictures now it all makes sense to me. I do have a box of about 3 dozen new graphite water pump packings that fit the E75 pump as well as a number of other cars. Is there any way I could get some pictures and or measurements from you to make the missing parts I need?

regards,

oldsobsolete

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The pictures I have posted before pretty much tell the story unless what your talking about is the bronze bushing that screws in the back of the water pump and tightens the packing material around the water pump shaft. If this is what you are missing then I can give you detailed measurements so that you can get it machined. The two brass washers are just sized to fit the annular area around the shaft. It would be relatively easy to get a couple of brass washers at the hardware store, resize them and then put five or six small dimples on them so that when they are placed together , there is a space for the grease to go through. What is the rest of your car like? Do you have an old Olds also? I have a 1915 model 42.

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What you are referring to as brass washers with holes or dimples is called a lantern ring.

Any good industrial supply or pump company should be able to sell you one to fit your pump. Just make sure you pack the gland so the lantern ring lines up with the grease fitting when the packing is adjusted correctly.

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I am working with another Marmon club member to recast the big 6 waterpump and thought it would be neat to reproduce the bush and washers as well.My thinking was that there were others that need them like me.I guess what I really need is to have a clear understanding of what the function of the ribs in the brass bush were as well as what their location was in relation to the waterpump packings and the brass washers.Having the width and height of the ribs would be nice.I am sure the Marmon engineers were a lot sharper than I am. I am just starting a ground up restoration of a 1927 E75 2 Passanger Coupe with rumbleseat. It is an untouched origional that was sold in WW2 to be used to power a sawmill and some how excaped destruction and has sat until a former Marmon club member sold it to me.It is all there except for a pair of Parabeam headlight lenses,the clock,and the latch locks and bezels for the rumbleseat lid. I even found a paper instruction label on the Marmon Self Lubricator that I am trying to reproduce for other Marmon owners. Part of the label was illegible and I am hoping another partial lable will surface.I also have the instruction label for raising and lowering the top for open cars, It is in perfect shape.All of the body wood is in poor shape and has to be completely replaced.I have the main rails all ready to cut out but I am a little neverous and will verify my measurements before I proceed.I do have an oldsmobile. In fact I have several: a F31 coupe,F34 coupe,1941 98 Convertible coupe,1941 78 Deluxe 2 dr sedan,1958 S88 2dr Hardtop,a 63 & 4 Starfire,as well as a 28,29,30 Olds for parts and a 54 Lincoln 2dr Hardtop for parts but should be restored. but that is not why I am called oldsobsolete. I have 5 to 6 semi loads of NOS oldsmobile parts,also other GM carlines as well as 800 NOS ford mldgs for 40's & 50's.hope this answers some of your questions.

Regards,

oldsobsolete

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Oldsobsolete,

Here are some pictures and some measurements of the brass bushing that is around the pump shaft. Now I am about 75% sure that the ribs or grooves on the bushing are from wear. They are very regular and in some places look like they were machined but show some wear in others when looked at with a magnifying glass. What is the purpose of the bushing? It increases the diameter of the pump shaft from 9/16" to 11/16" and may provide a wear surface which can be replaced instead of replacing the whole shaft which also drives the generator and distributor. When the pump impellor is screwed on the shaft, it also serves to position it at the proper distance from the pump housing. At least that is my take on the design. I would make a bushing that is 1&9/32" long with an inside press fit for the 9/16" shaft and an outside diameter of 11/16" to ride on the water pump packing. Let me know if you have any more questions.

My car has been parked since 1940 and still has 1940 california plates on the car. The engineering of these cars is very interesting and in many cases unusual. I too am missing a clock but this is not a problem as the Waltham movement used is quite common. There is a set of Marmon headlights that has been coming up on Ebay several times in the last three months that never seems to get to the sellers reserve. He originally wanted $775 as a buy it now price but the last time that had dropped to $375. That seems a bit pricey but I would keep an eye open for them. He labels them 1925 Packard, Marmon as I don't think he is sure of what they are. The last time they were up was last week and he usually waits three or four weeks before trying again. Just look under Marmon to see if they are up again.

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Yesterday, Nickelroadster came over and he helped me swap out the water pump on the Lincoln. It took us a while as there is some disassembly required, and the water pump mounts from the bottom. We also had to study the situation. I have not refilled the cooling system yet and probably won't for a couple of weeks. When I refill it and test it out I will keep this post informed. The shaft on the pump I removed when examined spun freely; indicating the teflon packing was not sealing the shaft. The top two photos show the pump I rebuilt at the first of this post mounted on the car; the bottom one is of the pump I removed.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Today, I invited Nickelroadster over and I took the Lincoln on a sortie to test the H2O pump rebuild. I checked the air in all the tires, put a quick charge on the battery, and filled the cooling system. I drove the car on a 60+ mile round trip. Initially, when I started the car, I tightened the rear packing. Nickelroadster and I monitored the pump for leakage thruout the trip. Both front and rear packing nuts required tightening at least twice during the trip. When we returned to the shop it appears the water pump issue is resolved; more anon.

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  • 3 weeks later...
  • 3 weeks later...

It is not weeping either. It needs to weep slightly, Tonight I drained the car of 99.9% of it's coolant.I will let it stand for a few days with the radiator cap off and the drain open. This should dry it out reasonably well. I will refill the car in a day or two with an anti freeze/corosion coolant (ie, not tap water).

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  • 1 year later...

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