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Jeff (or Dick) ,

What Peerless' are CCCA full classics and why?

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Some Peerless with special bodies built in the late 20's and early 30's are considered classics but I am not sure which ones. You would have to find that out from someone in the Classic Car Club. They keep changing their rules and I'm not sure what is considered a Peerless classic today.

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Hi- the "what" is easy, the "why" is, as always, more elusive.

1925 Series 67

1926-1928 Series 69

1930-1931 Custom 8

1932 Deluxe Custom 8

Those are the Classics.

Peerless was a grand car early on, then as times changed, began making more marketable (read smaller and cheaper) in an effort to survive. Packard did the same thing in the late 30's, with the 110 and 120 series (not Classics), and it enabled them to survive for years. Peerless was not so fortunate, and the smaller series of cars did not enable them to survive past the mid thirties.

CCCA recognizes the higher dollar, more elite cars. There were over a million CCCA recognized Classics built (go to CCCA website to see article about this), so it is not as exclusive as one might think. dc

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It's not listed on the CCCA list, but the V16 Peerless in the Crawford Museum is also Classic, and has been for a LONG time.

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Bryan,

Thanks for bringing up the subject of the models the CCCA considers full classics. As Green Dragon, trimacar and West said, there are a few models already accepted. Maybe someday a few more will if some individuals apply with the right cars.

I was looking at the CCCA's site a while ago and found a listing of how many classics were built of each make and model. The estimates for Peerless were 6,445 cars ( 6% of production ). Some other carmakers in the Full Classic fraternity ( and production numbers of Classic models ) were:

<ul style="list-style-type: disc">[*]Cord ( 6,749) [*]Packard ( 336,749 ) [*]Duesenberg ( 1,161 )counting all model A, X and J [*]Pierce-Arrow ( 50,603 )

Back in the middle of May, I started a thread on the Packard Forum asking how many surviving Packards there might be. One Classic Car Club of America member, Owen Dyneto, wrote in and gave me the list of Peerlesses in the current CCCA directory:

1927 8-69, in NY

1931 8-69, in MI

1931 8 Custom 8 Sedan, in MO

1931 8 7-P Limo, in NJ

1931 8 Custom Brougham, in WI

1932 8 Deluxe 8 Sedan, in MO

As to the "why" part of your question, I think their club tries to focus on the really exceptional cars between '25 and '40, which I find admirable. I'm not a CCCA member, but if I were and wanted to champion some other Peerless models for approval, I would include the 6-70, 6-72, 6-90, 6-91, 8-125, Standard Eight, Master Eight, and Master Deluxe Eight.

Back in 2005, some people on the CCCA Forum - General, were discussing the Buick Series 80 { West, Matt Harwood, JDLee, K8096, and Buicksplus 9/16/05 }. Here is what Jon Lee said:

"West,

The reason the six-cylinder Peerless has not been considered is not quite the same as the Buick saga. There was an application a few years ago for one of the later sixes on the 116" wheelbase that was declined approval. It was either a 6-60 or a 6-80, both modest cars in the $1200 to $1500 price range. The earlier 6-70 and 6-72 was a much more substantial car, priced just under the six-cylinder Packard, about the same size, with more power. To the best of my knowledge, no one has ever applied for either the 6-70 or 6-72. The Committee sometimes instigates its own considerations but the preferable method is by an application from a member.

This may be your chance to pick up on one that has been overlooked.

Jon Lee"

Quite an encouraging thing to say regarding the possible eligibility of Peerless sixes as Classics. Mr. Lee wrote that while Chairman of the CCCA Classification Committee.

----Jeff

pict0070_original.jpg

Photo courtesy of Mr. Philippe Mordant. Image taken at 2008 "Circuit des Ardennes" tour in Belgium, where the Peerless Six-72 on the right was in company with this Packard and many other veteran, antique and classic autos.

P.S. : I should add that I may have padded the figures a little for Duesenberg: I'm not sure the CCCA counts the Model "A" and "X" Duesenbergs as Classics, though I think that they have as much right to the title as the four Peerless 6 ( 289 c.i.d. Peerless motor ) and four Peerless 8 ( 246.7 and 322 c.i.d. Continental straight-eight motors ) models I suggested above.

Edited by jeff_a (see edit history)

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Guest BJM

Thanks Jeff. As you know, between my 2 jobs and other duties, I don't have much time to delve into the list, so Iappreciate the assist.

As for the why, the reason I asked was what seperates those on the list. I know the CCCA's rules (generally, not specifically) My thinking was - for those to be on the list, they must be, well, classics - possibly the longer wheel base cars and such.

So my next task to decipher the model numbers and try to see what made these cars significant.

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jeff_a</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

P.S. : I should add that I may have padded the figures a little for Duesenberg: I'm not sure the CCCA counts the Model "A" and "X" Duesenbergs as Classics </div></div>

A's and X's are definitely Classic and have always been. Back to 1921 for the A's when the first one was sold (it is often mistakingly called a 1919, even by its owner, but the A wasn't introduced until 1921).

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This conversation has been very interesting. I started out being disappointed that the 1925 6-72 was not on the list of CCCA cars, however was glad to know that with an application it could be possible. At some point i may have to apply to have it included. I'll post later about my 25 6-72 Phaeton. I would love to have it included in the CCCA registry at some point if it complies to their rules.

Cheers

Devon

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When going through the application process, keep in mind that any models pre 1925 can also be considered, as long as they are identical to the 1925 and later models.

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I read that on the CCCA site. I won't be applying for a while since my car needs a full restoration. It is in very good shape for an unrestored 25 but i don't think i'll apply until it is ready for such fine company.

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Guest BJM

Devon,

My apologies for not returning your phone call. I am very interested in knowing more about your car, one of one known left in existense. I am one of the rare individuals that is fully employed in 2 jobs and when not working I have a 3rd job - a 7 year old daughter!

As for the 6-72, an easy case can be made for that car. Yes, it is a 6 cylinder, but it's the Collins 289 cid 6 cylinder, it's a rare and unique bodystyle that was hand massaged by Peerless - although not coachbuilt, all long wheelbase Peerless' were basically handbuilt.

The added wheelbase, seating for 7 in an open car. I think your car has the unique fixed fabric roof (I may be mistaken - Jeff?) hydraulic brakes (rare for 1925) - all add up to a full classic candidate.

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Bryan,

I understand being busy, so no problem on the phone call. I work from home so feel free to give me a ring anytime i am usually around the phone.

I would love to talk to you more and learn more about my car. I can tell that you know much more about it than I do. I didn't know the body was hand massaged.

No the roof is not fixed it folds down.

Here is a link to some pictures of the car.

http://picasaweb.google.com/devonhorning/Peerless#

Cheers

Devon

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Welcome to the Peerless Forum, Devon,

Thank you for contacting us about your 1925 Peerless! I didn't think that there were any like yours around any more. I looked at the pictures on your CCCA post yesterday. A 6-72 manual from about 1926 I read talked about a "permanent" soft top on the 5-Pass. Touring Phaeton that didn't go up & down. Yours has the brackets or "saddles" to hold the top irons that convertibles have.

More later. ----Jeff

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Jeff Thanks for the welcome.

It is great to find a community of fellow Peerless People. I have been enjoying learning about Peerlesses and also doing research in proper restoration and preservation techniques. My dad and I are very excited about our car, especially learning that it is the only one. We have not been involved in Classic cars previously but my great uncle had the Peerless for the past 25?? years and i always like the car so much that one day we told him we would love to be able to purchase it from him someday and he said sure, so we ended up with the car. At that time (about 3 years ago) we really knew nothing about Peerless or Classic cars for that matter so it is a very fun learning experience.

Anyway the car is out in CA at my parents house so when my wife and I fly out in a few weeks i'll get a bunch more pictures of the car and the accessory parts and post more then.

Cheers

Devon

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Here are some interesting things about Peerless 6-70's and 6-72's.

To my knowledge, the '25's were all "6-70's"; the Standard Catalog of American Cars 1805-1942 says that in 1926, the long w.b.[133"] versions were "6-72's" and the short w.b.[126"] were "6-70's"; all of that line for '27 were "6-72's". I could be wrong about all of this, of course. I didn't start studying Peerless until two years ago myself.

*** CORRECTION*** Further study leads me to believe that the 6-70 was A 1924- and EARLY-1925-ONLY Model. The nearly-the-same 6-72 model appeared in early 1925, mechanically similar...but with the new radiator shell replacing the 1923-1924 Cadillac Lookalike shell and a flat area atop the hood near center. The Standard Catalog is in error in making 6-72 denote longer wheelbase length and the 6-70 shorter in 1926. By that year, the 6-72 had replaced the 6-70...though the same 289 Cu. In. Superb Six motor was used.

If you send me a PM ( click on my display name, look for "send Personal Message" ) with your address, I could send you a few pages of the 6-72 sales manual that Peerless Club member Philippe Mordant mailed me. Have you seen the photos of his beautiful 1927 6-72? Look under "Peerless 1927 6-72" and "Peerless Wins Class in Show" here in the Peerless Forum.

If you look under your Peerless you might notice that there are two driveshafts, kind of. One is a drive shaft and one is a torque arm. I believe the car has Lovejoy snubbers, and Lockheed Hydraulic brakes. The crankcase and transmission housing are Aluminum. "Snubbers" is a quaint term for shock absorbers. Speaking of quaint -- do you know what goes in the braking system? Alchohol and castor oil. Seriously! Probably another excuse to have

some booze around during Prohibition.... More later.

Your great uncle doesn't by any chance live in San Diego, does he?

Edited by jeff_a
Corrections (see edit history)

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Guest BJM

Jeff,

Great minds think alike. smile.gif I was wondering about the San Diego connection as well. Devon, generally, there are 3 "convertible" (for lack of a better overall term) 1925 Peerless cars known to exist. One in California, one in Montana (that is in deplorable condition but still recognizable) and yours, which I thought previously was in Tennessee/Kentucky.

Now maybe yours is the other one we know about in California, maybe not.

The one in Montana and the one in California we presumed were the shorter wheelbase "open" cars in the six cylinder line up. The one in Montana definitely is the shorter wheelbase car, there is no evidence of a jump seat and I believe Jeff as run the numbers on that car. The car in California is a bit of a mystery but is believe to be the shorter wheelbase Peerless open 289 cid 6 cylinder car.

One thing about Peerless is there isn't always the best information either in resources or from the owners. A lot of owners are elderly. Transactions were typically handshake deals and there is a big seperation between brass era and post brass era Peerless cars. Brass era Peerless cars can still sell for six figures easy, and bring out the bluebloods at big national auctions.

The post brass era Peerless are a mixed bag. You can still pick up a nice V* closed car for under $50,000. As Jeff says, more later....

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That is very interesting about the brass era vs. later model cars. Although I just love the car so the value of it wasn't why we got the car or why we plan to keep it for the long term.

You bring up some interesting points about the car, As I have stated, I am learning about Peerlesses on the go so have a long way to go but this is more of what i know about our car.

It is the 7 pass. phaeton. straight 6. There are two fold up seats right behind the front seats. Also it has a second "windshield" that is mounted to the back of the front seats and can be folded out and swung back all the way to the back seats to protect the rear passengers. I have not measured the wheelbase but can do that in a few weeks when i am out at my parents in CA. It is in amazing condition as far as I am concerned for a 25. There is nothing that i see that is missing or modified, even the original leather is all there and not rotten away. It is definitely in need of restoration as you can tell by the pictures but i think that it will be as easy as could be for a complete restoration.

The heritage. Out in CA we have the records for ownership that if i remember correctly go back to the original owner which would place us as the 4th owner if i remember correctly. and no my great Uncle is not from San Diego so this should be a new car to the registry. When we got the car about 3.5 years ago my dad briefly contacted someone with the Peerless Club and talked about the car but we have not stayed in touch with anybody since then.

When I am out at my folks for the holidays i'll dig up all i can about it and post back here to let you know what I do. It is great to find a group that is knowledgeable and interested in such a unique marque

By the way sorry for highjacking this thread. I didn't meant to take over the topic from the CCCA it just caught my attention and i got carried away.

Cheers

Devon

http://picasaweb.google.com/devonhorning/Peerless#

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Have enjoyed all the information about your family's Peerless. Don't worry about thread-hijacking. That would be if you started talking about classic cars and then I tried to change the subject to the time Byron Nelson and I were at the golf course the same day, etc.

Neat photo of you and your wife and the '25 Peerless when you got married. The second windshield is a plus, and visible in the picture. The car runs, too, I gather.

You and Bryan were talking about Brass Era cars. I was shocked this week to see a big auction on TV (this Tuesday on ECL) that actually had a Peerless for sale. It was a taped segment of the RM Monterey auction held at the same time as Pebble Beach. A 1912 Model 36 was featured -- and sold for $335,000. If you had gone to the Pebble Beach area this August, you could have seen six Peerlesses: two 1903's, a 1909*, a 1912, a 1913, and a 1932 V-16.

One thing that a person could do with an auto like your 1925 Peerless is show it in the HPOF class that some shows feature. Historical Preservation Original Features is for the very rare examples of antique cars that are almost a time-machine look at the past because they have patina ( rather than new wool/new glass/new paint, etc. ) and tell us something about what original finishes were, like yours.

Sorrry for the long message. I put some more stuff on my last post, too. --Jeff

*I read that this unrestored Mod. 19 went for $170,500

Edited by jeff_a (see edit history)

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1928_6-91.JPGBryan,

Some more thoughts on the Classic Car Club/Peerless subject.

As trimacar pointed out, it's ironic that a lot of Peerless' triumphs in car design were early. Three-fourths of the company's history (car manufacturing, anyway) was BEFORE the Classic period. Too bad so few people know anything about it: 1-cylinder cars, 2-cylinder cars, 4-cylinder cars (one Green Dragon race car had an 11-liter 4 in 1903!), 4-cylinder trucks used in WWI, 578 cubic inch sixes, 825 cubic inch sixes, and early V-8's (1916-1928).

There are a couple of photos I've seen of Peerless models that aren't regarded as Classics but tend to make me think that no one in the CCCA has ever seen one. I'm not trying to be critical of the club -- it's that the car stands on it's own as beautiful, rare, impressively-designed and...Classic. It's really difficult for me to get pictures on the web, but if I can, I'll put some up.

Peerless cars that come to mind are:

1 1924 Model 6-70 5-Pass. Phaeton for sale in Montana

2)1927 Mod. 6-72 Sedan, 126.5 w.b., owned by Philippe Mordant in Belgium

3)1928 Mod. 6-91 Sedan owned by Don Elliott in Massachusetts

4)1929 Mod 8-125 7-Pass. Sedan, 138 w.b., owned by John K. in Canada {!!!Approved in 2011!!!}

5)1930 Standard Eight 5-Pass. Sedan, 118 w.b., owned by Peter S. in Missouri

JOHNS_CAR_004.jpg

1928_6-91.JPG

----Jeff

post-49853-143138108497_thumb.jpg

post-49853-143138108498_thumb.jpg

post-49853-143138110308_thumb.jpg

Edited by jeff_a
Photos are -- 1928 Mod. 6-91 (black car), 1924 Mod. 6-70 (close-up), 1929 Mod. 8-125 (green car). (see edit history)

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The HPOF idea has crossed my mind but there is one problem with my car for such an event. If you noticed in the pictures the hood is different than the rest of my car. My great uncle told us that the owner before him was thinking of restoring the car and repainted the hood as a test. then left it at that. Other than that the car is completely original. Because of this i have never pursued showing it in this class. Also for the past three years I have been out here in Tennessee while the car is in CA. so this kinda makes it hard for me to do much with it.

You ask if it runs. Well... My uncle told us he drove it home when he got it 25?? years before we got it from him. It then sat in his garage under cover pretty much untouched. So that would mean that it has been almost 30 years since it has been run. Since we have had it i have not tried to start it for two reasons. One, we got the car soon before i got married and moved away, and have not had the time to go through the basics to make sure it is ready to run. And two i have not worked with cars this old, so have not wanted to go messing around until i know what i am doing and what procedures need to be followed with these old cars. I really have no reason to believe that it would not fire right up because the engine spins nice and smooth and every thing is there. I have just rotated the engine and oiled things up every holiday when i am out there to make sure that no deterioration happens. I am sure that the carb. would have to be cleaned out from the dried/lacquered gas and a few things but i am sure that it could run very easily. The only "problem" that i know of at the moment is the steering froze up from sitting all those years. I know that this could be remedied quite easily we just have not done it at this time. Like i said time and distance have been an issue for me. Also I have not gone through checking the insulation on the wiring so i would not want to put any juice in the wiring until I have very thoroughly checked it over or preferably replaced for safety.

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Jeff I just looked up the 1925 models and there were 7 8 cylinder models "Equiposed" and 7 6 cylinder models "Superb". The 6's were a 2 seat roadster,5 passenger phaeton,7 passenger phaeton,5 pass. coupe,5 pass. sedan,7 pass, sedan and 7 pass. Berline Limousine. The 8's were a 4 pass. phaeton, 4 pass. Victoria, 5 pass. sedan coupe, 5 pass. sedan,5 pass. town Brougham, 7 pass. sedan and a 7 pass. Berline Limousine. Jeff I also have plans when my 8-125 is restored. To apply for Classic status and I believe it meets the requirements of large engine,long wheelbase and many luxury features. Still unable to contact the other 1929 8-125 owners.

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Guest BJM

John,

Welcome to the forum. Thse are impressive cars, the one you have. Can you add a digital photo of it?

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Hello Devon and Jeff,

You could may be use the serial number to known if you have a 6-70 or a 6-72 :

Car serial number ....... Motor number ............. Model ..... Series

For 6-72 :

B720,001 to B720,279 .. 62,801 to 68,054 ............ 72 ...... Second

302,501 to 307,788 ...... idem ......................... 72 ...... First

(in addition, on the top of each door, you could find a stamp begining with "Six 5S" maybe the pre-number for 6-72)

For 6-70 :

299,505 to 302,291 ...... 60,005 to 62,791 ............ 70

(See the post "How to identify your Peerless...from a Spare parts catalog from Peerless").

I hope this could help you ?

But 6-70 or 6-72, you have a beautifull open car !

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Phillepe,

Thanks for the info on the serial numbers In a couple weeks when i am out in CA. I'll get my serial number and post back here again so you all can have a bit more detailed info on my car.

Cheers.

Devon

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John,

Thanks for sending the list of the Peerless 6 & 8 line-up for 1925. I have a <span style="text-decoration: underline">Saturday Evening Post </span>ad from '25 that shows all 14 models.

Good luck in applying for Classic status someday. I've never seen an 8-125 in person, but every time I see a photo of your green Peerless, I think: "If that's not a Classic Car -- then nobody else must have made a Classic Car that year, either". The photos you e-mailed me are great, but there were also some color photos of your Peerless on antiquecar.com and trocadero.com .

Here's what someone said in a letter-to-the-editor to Hemmings Motor News after seeing a picture of your '29 back when the previous owner had it for sale:

" <span style="font-weight: bold">I happened to see a classifird photo-ad </span>for a 1929 Peerless in June HMN. We have all heard of the 'Three P's--Packard, Pierce-Arrow and Peerless.' I have certainly seen a ton of Packard articles and photos and more than a few related to Buffalo's best, Pierce-Arrow. But I have never seen an article devoted to Peerless. Couldn't even tell you where they were built, or when the company went belly-up. The small black-and-white ad photo shows quite a road locomotive. After a good deal of head-scratching, that may be the only photo of a Peerless I have ever seen." -Rick L. Fines, Logansport, IN, 8/1/06

I don't know how you feel about the "road locomotive" description, but it seems your car made a positive impression. Nobody refers to the typical cars you see at a mall parking lot by that term!

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