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jeff_a

"New" Peerless Discovered!

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Bryan~

The engine is located just about 10 miles from my Huntingdon Valley Pa home here just outside Philadelphia.

I have some cellphone camera photos of this engine & sawmill set-up~~~

The owner does NOT want me to post these photos on the internet ?

He was NOT happy that I wanted to take these four photos.

The real problem is he needs a very high torque at a very low engine speed as his sawmill's pully ratio & belt is now set-up .

The long stroke & large displacement bore of the Peerless 60 seems ideal for his set-up.

The 454 Chevy, or 455 Olds, V8s make their high torque at a much higher RPM range I believe ?

The old Peerless 60 engine is run at a much slower speed and makes great toeque power much like an old stationary steam engine.

This sawmill rig takes up to 2 1/2 foot diameter hardwood maple & oak complete tree trunks and moves them into a 2 foot , or optional 4 foot, diameter circular saw ripping blade .

If someone can find the owner a more modern gasoline engine/drive setup & help the owner install it; they can then have the old rare Peerless 60 engine!

The engine now is sitting on a cut-off stub chassis frame with it's original Peerless clutch, flywheel & gearbox & original Peerless radiator.

The owner & his family have been using this Peerless powered lumber sawmill for decades since the late 1930s.

It is still very much in use today for quality hardwood lumber & slab & firewood..

If someone can supply this owner with a replacement more modern powerplant~~~

They can have this Peerless set-up for free !

They must prove a real serious need for this Peerless rig however.

No "Speculators" , or fast buck $$$$ "Flippers " !

Any potential buyers must be vetted as to an actual need before they are allowed to see, or know the location of this rare Peerless 60 engine/driveline set-up.

Sounds like it could be a Win-Win deal for everyone involved.

For the "Right Person" with a real actual need for this engine to restore a Rare early Peerless 60 Automobile.

Edited by Silverghost (see edit history)

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An old Mercedes 5 cylinder turbo diesel engine would get the job done. It produces 185 ft lbs of torque at about 2400 rpms. It can also be run on used fryer oil as long as it's filtered well.

They can be had for about $500 and can last almost forever.

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Brad,

The conversation we had on Saturday was indeed good. Thanks a lot for joining us again on the Peerless Forum. You sound like a great candidate to be a Peerless owner someday... particularly an early Peerless!! I often hear about vehicles that come into the "for sale" category. When I first became interested in Peerlesses, the conventional wisdom was that they didn't change hands enough to be listed in price guides and that when they did, it was privately, not by auction. Without spending hours tabulating all the cars up for sale I've read about, I'd guess that 20 or 30 have been for sale in the last year and a half.

By all means, I think the restorer I was telling you about who has parts of three Peerless 60 H.P. cars should be the person to acquire this powerplant. I called him up after I talked to you and told him to call you. Hopefully he has. We're not certain yet if it is from a Model 37, 140-inch-wheelbase "60-Six", of course, but everything you've said so far is consistent with that.

----Jeff

Edited by jeff_a (see edit history)

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Bleach,

You can gear down anything, but I'm guessing that the 2,700 rpm of that modern Mercedes engine is 1,000 over the redline of the 7-inch-stroke Peerless. I've never seen one of these 825s or ridden in a car with one, but I assure you they are low-RPM engines.

Interestingly enough, the owners of the only complete Peerless with this motor, the Crawford Auto-Aviation Museum in Cleveland, took theirs on a tour once. They drove their 1914 60-Six on the Spirit of '76 Transcontinental Reliability Tour from Seattle to Philadelphia.

----Jeff

Edited by jeff_a (see edit history)

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Jeff~

Do you happen to have any photos of the Crawford Museum's Peerless 60 Six engine ?

I'd like to compare it to the Big Peerless Six engine that I just inspected at this fellow's sawmill.

I am convinced that is is indeed a Peerless 60 engine ~~~

And so is the current owner.

In the distant past 50-60s several "Antique" auto collectors have indeed inspected this engine.

He remembers his late father showing this powerplant to the late Mr. J. B. Van Sciver Jr. & others in the early to mid 60s .

It would seem that this sawmill Peerless engine was well known to a number of Philly area collectors some time ago~~~

It is far from a new undiscovered find.

But~

It seems to have fallen of the collector's radar in the last 20-30+ years or so.

I suspect this is because there was never another unrestored or partial Peerless 60 Six auto found that needed this Rare engine/gearbox package ?

Any photos of this engine, or the Crawford Museum's Peerless 60 Six auto itself, might also be an interesting view.

With only one known extant complete original Peerless 60 Six auto ~~~

This engine might well end up as a running , or static, auto musuem display ~~~

Unless there are enough stray Peerless 60 Six auto parts floating around out there to piece another auto itself together around this powerplant & gearbox ?

I really doubt that that is the case~~~

BUT~

You would know if this is in fact the case much better than I .

This engine is hands down the Biggest 1913-1915 auto engine I & my late father had ever set our eyes on.

It is indeed massive~

A real Beast.

Brad H.

Edited by Silverghost (see edit history)

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A 2 foot blade should not need all that much torque,,I had a 34" blade on the old Farmall regular,,a 1927 model,,,A McCormack P-300 unit should be overkill I think,,crank start,,magneto / no battery needed ,burns gas or kerosene,,,,Cheers Ben

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You have to remember that this sawmill rig not only runs the circular saw blade itself but actually moves, and feeds, the entire weight of the tree log into this blade back and forth.

A four foot blade can also be used; if this rig is re-configured for larger diameter trees.

This old Peerless engine just breezes along with little effort.

Who knows what power & torque he really needs to use here ?

I am not a sawmill expert by any means.

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It appears that there has only been one known complete original Peerless 60 Six in collector's, & Museum, hands for many decades.

Jeff a here just put me in touch with a noted brass-era restorer who is now in fact building-up not one~~~

But TWO additional Peerless 60 Six autos from a very large chache of old parts.

This restorer will now investigate this eastern Pa. area sawmill Peerless engine for a possible acquisition for one of these two ongoing restoration/recreation projects.

Lets' hope that this very Rare 13.5 Liter/ 825 Cu In six cylinder monster of a Peerless engine/flywheel + gearbox, and radiator can be acquired & saved for one of those great Peerless 6- Six projects.

This Peerless saga may indeed have a very happy ending after all !

Edited by Silverghost (see edit history)

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Update~

Since Jeff & I posted about this very rare Peerless 60 SIX I have been contacted by six people .

Four are Dealers who have no real valid need for this rare engine.

Their only real interest is to buy & "Flip It" to make BiG BUCKS $$$ off this rare engine.

Another is a noted & well known auto Museum who wishes to put this engine on static display.

The last is a noted Brass Era auto restorer who is trying to put two additional Peerless 60 Six autos back togeher again.

Several wanted to look at this engine during the upcomming AACA Hershey Meet week in October.

The Sawmill & current engine owner, and I, insist that it not go to a dealer who has no real valid immediate need for such a rare engine to finish a Peerless 60 Six restoration.

You must also be willing to meet the sawmill's owner demands that a new more modern gasoline, not diesel, low speed high torque powerplant be set-up by the new engine buyer; at their cost for re-powering his old sawmill rig.

If you DO NOT have a real valid immediate need for this rare engine please do NOT contact us .

The sawmill owner will NOT sell it to you !

You MUST PROVE you really have an immediate valid need for this rare engine.

Please also keep in mind that I do NOT own this rare Peerless engine.

I am simply trying to find a proper new home for this very rare & unique Peerless engine; before it becomes lost to future geneations.

The sawmill owner has set HIS terms.

&

Keep in mind~

I wish to make NO money at all from this engine swap.

Edited by Silverghost (see edit history)

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Brad,

I mailed you copies of my only 2 photos of the 60 HP engine in OH in a letter about 2 hrs ago. After a leisurely 2 days riding on a truck to SLC it should get to you in another 2 days. Tried to add some additional mat'l on the golden age of Peerless to the letter to give you some good reading matter!

----Jeff

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Guest BJM

Brad

Thank you for your efforts. The issue is the monumental amount of work that has to be done to satisfy the present owner. There are a lot of possible points where the plan could fall apart. It would take a lot of planning, talking and then execution on the plan and (still more planning) then troubleshooting.

This owner sounds....a little difficult to work with.

The brass era guy sounds "invested". Everyone else, not so much.

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Guest BJM

I did go back and read all the entries now that I have had a bit more time.

My fascination with this and the Pierce Arrow version are how the heck do you get it going? Sure, I understand low speed v high speed operation but this thing had to have a TON of friction compared to a modern engine and LOTS of blow by because of the low quality of piston rings and long stroke at LOW speeds.

I'll bet the owner doesn't have a mosquito problem! :eek:

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Most of these really big engines have a compression release,,,,,ex valve stays open til about 11o'clock on compresson stroke,,,and they turn really easy,,,only the momentum of it all,heavy flywheel etc,,

Cold oil would only be the problem,,Ben

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Brad

Thank you for your efforts. The issue is the monumental amount of work that has to be done to satisfy the present owner. There are a lot of possible points where the plan could fall apart. It would take a lot of planning, talking and then execution on the plan and (still more planning) then troubleshooting.

This owner sounds....a little difficult to work with.

The brass era guy sounds "invested". Everyone else, not so much.

You have to remember that quality hardwood lumber is the sawmill owner's family business.

It has been for generations.

It is still very much a working sawmill.

One of the very few left in Penna.

He supplies quality hardwood, oak & maple for home builders, timberframe lumber & the hardwood scrap "slab wood' with the tree bark still on for firewood.

He also sells quartered firewood.

This sawmill must remain in operation.

I think he owner is smart in demanding that a newer more modern powerplant be set-up by the Peerless engine buyer BEFORE he gives them this old beast.

The very last thing he wants is to be left without a powerplant on this sawmill rig.

He wants the Peerless 60 Six buyer to have all the headaches of re-powering this sawmill set-up in exchange for this very rare Peerless 13.5 liter 850 Cu In engine.

He wants a turn key powerplant installed in place of the almost 100 year old Peerless 60 Six.

I also believe he is afraid that one day this engine may just fail , or be stolen, leaving him out of business & without any family income.

He also wants to see this Peerless engine saved & put to good use in a restored/reconstructed Peerless 60 Six Antique Auto.

Re-powering this sawmill with a more modern gasoline engine & trans rig is really the only BiG problem issue here in my opinion.

If someone really wants, & actually needs, this Peerless 60 Six for a Peerless restoration/recreation he will try to work with this sawmill owner to make him happy.

It would be a Win-Win for everyone involved.

Edited by Silverghost (see edit history)

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Guest BJM

Absolutely fascinating. One in a million circumstances.

We as a community are a little hamstrung because we can't see the set up. It sounds like it would take a mechanical engineer to assist in the new set up. The new set up would have to built, installed and sort of run along side the Peerless set up for a period of time to show reliability before the Peerless 60 goes in a new direction.

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I was just told by the noted Brass-Era auto & Peerless restorer Temple Baldwin, who is in fact working on these two Peerless restoration/recreation projects, that this Giant 13.5 Liter /850 Cu In Peerless 1912-1914 engine only has a top speed of 1200-1300 RPM max.

As it is used on the sawmill now I am guessing it only runs at about half it's rated top speed.

I will use a hand heald tacometer to see for sure.

The real issue for Temple Baldwin is what the heck would you replace it with today in a more modern powerplant that would have enough torque to run this ancient sawmill rig at such a slow operating RPM ?

I was told by the owner that it was once powered by a stationary steam engine & a boiler that burned the mill's scrap wood before the Peerless 60 Six replaced it sometime in the late 1930s .

It has been powering this sawmill ever since.

You can still see the mounting pad for the steam engine with holes for the old base mounting bolts.

Now keep in mind that the mill owner does not like diesel engines ?

This is indeed a real problem.

If this rain ever clears here in Eastern Penna. this weekend, and the owner will allow me, I will take a few digital photos to post here of this entire ancient sawmill rig & this fantastic Giant Peerless engine currently powering it.

Brad H.

Edited by Silverghost (see edit history)

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Most modern engines are made for gear reduction etc,,,

First engine to come to mind is a type 12 [?] American LaFrance, 6cyl ,,a common engine and someone available to fix it,,

TheAhrens Fox is good but has a funney drive for the pump on front,,

I saw a 1350cid Van Blerk a few years ago,,,Looked like a 48 Loco,,BIGGGGER tho,,Cheers,Ben

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The issue is the monumental amount of work that has to be done to satisfy the present owner. There are a lot of possible points where the plan could fall apart. It would take a lot of planning, talking and then execution on the plan and (still more planning) then troubleshooting.

This owner sounds....a little difficult to work with.

I would suspect the closer one gets to satisfying the requirements, the more insurmountable the requirements will become. This tends to be the case with "owners" who keep moving the finish line the closer you get. Just a hunch....

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I would suspect the closer one gets to satisfying the requirements, the more insurmountable the requirements will become. This tends to be the case with "owners" who keep moving the finish line the closer you get. Just a hunch....

Lets hope this is not the case here.

Perhapps the restorer/future Peerless engine buyer Temple Baldwin can get some sort of contract written up with the sawmill owner that outlines everything that must be done before he can take delivery of the Peerless engine. ?

My only part in this entire saga is just to get these two guys to finally meet-up in person so THEY can sort-out any possible transaction details themselves .

I really do not know the Peerless restorer Temple Baldwin at alll; and only know the sawmill owner from buying firewood from his late father & him for many years .

I will however try to help in any possible way I can ?

I am however also a bit worried about exactly what more modern gasoline engine will be able to do the very same job as this almost 100 year old Peerless beast ?

As it stands now~

I don't have any real clue of exactly what engine will be able to run that slow with all the torque & power at such very low speeds ?

What about an electric motor run through a gearbox to gear down it's output speed ?

If one can in fact do this job it would be much simpler to set up in my opinion .

Finding & setting-up a new powerplant for this sawmill set-up IS a real problem issue.

Edited by Silverghost (see edit history)

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Just got off of work and had a few moments to comment. Bryan, Bleach and cben09 had ideas that might be going in the right direction. Please bear in mind that I'm not an engineer or even an "engine guy". Thinking that firetruck engines are big and lots of them are probably out of service...maybe one of them would work. Does anyone know the working rpm range/hp/torque of, say, the engines mentioned so far, and the V-12 engines Seagraves and American LaFrance had in the 30s/40s/50s?

Re: the 2 pictures of the Crawford Museum 1914 Peerless "60" HP I sent Silverghost

I'm told by the restorer that a photo of the engine exterior won't help much. The reason is that the 3 T-Head engines from 1914 have the same layout, but the dimensions are different. The dimensions which the Canadian Peerless owner sent (for a 578 Cu. In. 48-Six, posted earlier on this thread [post# 39]) could be compared to the sawmill engine and could at least establish if some of the dimensions were the same as that of the 48-Six.


Edited by jeff_a (see edit history)

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I talked to Temple Baldwin, the Peerless 60 Six restorer, several times late last week, and he did not seem to wish to talk at all about ANY possible ideas to find, & eventually rig, a replacement powerplant to this old ancient sawmill.

As I have stated this is the mill owner's #1 concern before letting this Peerless engine go to anyone.

Temple Baldwin the restorer said also said that he had a fellow "Greg Cohen", an "engine expert", that was supposed to contact me about inspecting this engine late last week for Temple. Greg in fact called me at almost 11:00 PM while I was already sleeping , and left a 15 second message that he had cellphone battery troubles & would call me the very next day when he would in fact be passing through my PA area on his way home to Washington DC from a trek to Indiana. He wanted to inspect the engine for Temple Baldwin sometime the very next day. He left me NO contact phone number & no way at all to contact him however ?

I waited around the house all day & night the next day and he NEVER called me back.

I just wasted my entire day & evening sitting around waiting for him to contact me !

I also later, the next day, contacted Temple who said that this fellow in fact passed through my area yesterday at 3:00 PM but "Greg" never bothered to call me back again ???

And remember~

I had NO way at all to contact him.

A missed opportunity~

I then offered to take photos & measure this engine for Temple myself on Sunday to help get a positive ID on it if he supplied additional info on exactly what to measure & look for, and what exactly to photograph; ie: casting numbers, model & serial number plate series etc.

Now~

I am NOT a Peerless engine expert but would do my best to help him ID the engine since he lives such a long distance away from PA in Idaho.

Temple never contacted me back on Sunday yesterday with any additional info that I could use myself to help HIM ID this Peerless engine as he had stated he would in fact do.

At this time, because of all of the issues above,

I will now "Bow-Out" as acting middleman and let these two guys sort this all out directly themselves.

I have given Temple Baldwin's contact phone numbers to the old sawmill's owner.

From all of this I must assume that there is no real interest in making any deal here for this engine on the sawmill owner's terms of finding him, & setting-up, a new replacement sawmill powerplant .

It would appear there IS however interest in the Peerless engine itself on the part of the restorer.

But NOT providing a new powerplant as this sawmill owner had wanted all along.

Also~~

No interest in any talk on the restorer's part of providing any ideas for a possible replacement powerplant.

I will now let these two fellows sort this all out themselves~~~

I feel I have now done my part to try to save this historic Peerless engine~~~

The rest is entirely up to them now.

I will now sit this one out on the sidelines !

Edited by Silverghost (see edit history)

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Guest BJM

Brad

You have done more then enough. I would personally NOT get involved further. As I stated, the changing of the engine requires a "perfect storm" of execution to successfully move this engine into another's hands.

How rude for this one guy to call you at 11pm, then not follow up the next day.

I tried to be a go between on a more modern car, a 1960 Electra, that turned out badly. A person can only do so much.

It's an interesting story, I would leave it at that.

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I would suspect the closer one gets to satisfying the requirements, the more insurmountable the requirements will become. This tends to be the case with "owners" who keep moving the finish line the closer you get. Just a hunch....

It's probably not too much of a stretch to think that maybe Mr. Higgins may have been clairvoyant on this one...Just saying...

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Brad,

Thank you for all of your work so far. Bryan is right that it is a fascinating engine and one in a million. Without you and your father's skills of observation -- coupled with a great background in Brass Cars and the AACA Forums -- none of us would ever know about what may very well be a Peerless 60-Six engine. If I had gone over there to get firewood, and spied the powerplant for your firewood supplier's mill, I probably would have thought: "I wonder what train that motor came out of?"

The difficulty in all of this is that everyone is 1000s of miles apart. If that weren't the case, I'm sure we all would have established what the motor was, effected a perfect replacement, and gotten the new motor chugging away.

----Jeff

Edited by jeff_a (see edit history)

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