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DONE WITH HERSHEY?


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Hey everyone i just got my judges score sheet today!This was my 2nd year showing my 65 Newyorker!I'm now the proud owner of 2nd junior trophy book ends!Last years score sheet highlighted the areas i needed to work on & i did so!However it would appear that they have now found other areas that they take issue with!This years score sheet now shows even more highlighted areas!So it appears that i'm going backwards!Is that possible?With that said i do not see any reason why some of the deductions were taken at all! I,ve spoken with Steve Moskowitz & he suggested that maybe a judge in the Harrisburg-Hershey area might be able to look at the car & tell me what improvements i need to make!So if anyone out there fits this description & you are willing to help please reply!I may just decide to not show the car at Hershey anymore!I really don't need another 2nd Junior trophy!

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Your car was almost certainly judged by two different judging teams - the likelihood of the same exact judges looking at your car both times is pretty remote. Given that, each person sees a car differently and so what one sees this time might not been seen by another one.

When I went for my 1st Junior on my Model A, I made it but when I saw the judging sheet I had several deductions - obviously small ones but deductions nevertheless. Before I went for my Senior award later in the year, I went through every area to ensure I covered those. When I got my Senior award and later my judging sheet, I had one area for dedcution and it was a max 1 point deduction and in an area that had not been deducted at the first show. Now that tells me a couple of things: (1) either I corrected all the previous deduction areas, (2) they weren't seen this time or (3) a little of both. And when I looked at the area where I lost the deduction for my Sr award I could find absolutely nothing wrong but obviosuly the judge did.

Hershey is a little tougher to win at IMO since you usually have a lot of cars showing up in your class and so not only does your car have to score well, it has to score within a certain number of points of the highest of the top score for the appropriate award. I won both my 1st Junior and Senior on my Corvair at Hershey which I consider a bigger honor than the Junior and Sr on my Model A that was won at other meets.

Keep working and keep trying.

BTW, when I try to get to your homepage it tells me it doesn't exist

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When I got my Senior award and later my judging sheet </div></div>

Exactly how did you get your judging sheet if you achieved the award? Or has the system changed?.......Bob

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I requested a judges after last year's Hershey, and probably will again...for kicks.

I was frustrated to see highlighted "deduction zones" on items my car didn't even have or items no judge could see unless they went really digging.

Don't get hung up on the awards...bring it out to share with people, that is far more rewarding!!

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I'm not in your area or I would volunteer. I have offered in the past for our area and even did a couple of cars in trailers at Hershey before Saturday in years past. Every judge sees different things, so it is not surprising that the areas change a little. Since you don't see the point deduction you don't know if you traded some big point deductions for a few 1 point deductions.

The other problem you may be bumping against, is the point spread. In a large show in a popular class you have a better chance of have a high point cars that raised the bar on you. It is possible to point high enough for a first, but the point spread pushes you down to a second.

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bhigdog</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When I got my Senior award and later my judging sheet </div></div>

Exactly how did you get your judging sheet if you achieved the award? Or has the system changed?.......Bob </div></div>

You can request (or could then I assume it isn't any different now) the scoring sheet whether you win or not (well not actually the sheet but one that shows wehre deductions are made) so you can prepare for going further. But maybe I got them and wasn't suppose to - I don't remember as it has been a while since I got the Sr on the Model A (1995) and I never took it any further other than Preservations

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jim Bollman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The other problem you may be bumping against, is the point spread. In a large show in a popular class you have a better chance of have a high point cars that raised the bar on you. It is possible to point high enough for a first, but the point spread pushes you down to a second. </div></div>

That happened at Hershey this year. We had one car that set the bar high for all the rest. And the subject that I posted a thread about on this forum about one point making all the difference, bit one owner and shoved them into being the highest point second place winner. Probably at another show they might have been the one to take first. So that point spread does matter and even one point deduction matters.

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Hey guys thanks for the replys!Ok 1st this was my 2nd year at the show & i'm pretty familiar with everything!There were only 5 vehicles going for 1st Junior in my class 27F.Now i guess it's possible that one of these scored really high!There were also 6 cars with DNJ on them maybe i'll do that & just show the car!The thing about all of this is that there's no chance of getting the same judges each year!This to me means they will likely find different deductions each year!This could end up being a real battle trying to get a 1st Junior or Senior award!I would like to get my 1st Junior at the Hershey show & i will not go to a regional show!Sorry about my webpage not working it's starting to frustrate me but i'm trying to get it back up!If you would like to see some pics of my car i have some posted in the photo gallery at aaca.org Chrysler page 1-4-&5.You can request a judges sheet after the show.For the Hershey show you must send a self addressed stamped envelope to the Vice President of judging.They will highlight the areas in which deductions were taken.It's very non-specific!Again if there is a judge in the Harrisburg-Hershey area willing to help me please reply!

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 65Newyorker</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> You can request a judges sheet after the show. For the Hershey show you must send a self addressed stamped envelope to the Vice President of judging. They will highlight the areas in which deductions were taken. It's very non-specific!</div></div>

Here is the name and address to send a request, along with a S.A.S.E., for a highlighted copy of the judging sheet.

Joe Vicini - V.P. - Class Judging

3 Robbins Nest Drive

Perrineville, NJ 08535

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You are welcome. Be sure and come back and let us know what you find out.

I always suggest to folks that get a highlighted copy to make a copy of it so that they can mark on the copy and not the orginal that they get. Walk around the car and look at it with the sheet not as if it is their vehicle, but as if it is a car that they know nothing about. Act as if they are judging the car. Put down honestly the deductions that they feel are correct for what they find. 0 is perfect and the max deduction is if it is non-authentic, missing or cannot be used for it's intended purpose.

A vehicle does not get a single point for non-authentic anything. i.e.: Let's say the car has a modern battery. They lose all 3 points. It does not matter if the battery is new, it is as if it is not there.

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Don't give up. With the 10 point spread, you could easily have a car nice enough to win a 1st Grand National Award, but a 400 point car in your class can bite you every time. The cars that beat you out this year won't be there next year.

There are a few things to consider:

1. Think about going to the AACA Library and Research Center - Trying to obtain copies of all the documentation on everything on your car. The documentation would give you the knowledge on your vehicle as well as information to give to the Team Captain if there are any questions.

2. Consider leaving your car home for a brief time - Getting involved with the Judging process. If you're looking at learning what's wrong with your vehicle, do some judging. You might be lucky enough to judge the class that your car would be in if it were there and it gives you the chance to pick the brains of your fellow judges as well as be able to see what they're looking for. The problem is you can't judge a class if you have a vehicle in it, so that's why leaving your vehicle home might be the trick until you learn what's wrong.

3. Don't go to Hershey - Hershey is a large show, and many times the competition and judging are tougher. Going to a smaller meet might give you that edge that you need to be a success in winning your First Junior. Winning at Hershey is a prestigious thing, and the bragging rights last for a long time, but Hershey can often be much more difficult than other shows. Losing at Hershey is nothing to be ashamed about, but the 10 point spread of your competition might be what's been hurting you.

- I hope I've helped you find solutions to your answers. By doing one or all of the three things that I mentioned, may be what it takes to win the awards that you're going for. <span style="font-weight: bold">JUST DON'T GIVE UP.</span>

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65 Newyorker,

I suspect that the 10 point spread got you. You would certainly have a better chance for that elusive First Junior at a smaller meet. But, that might not be the best approach.

You describe your vehicle as "It is a complete original".

I have a Restored 1929 Model A Ford Phaeton and an Original 1976 Ford Country Squire Wagon. The Phaeton is a Senior Grand National Winner that got its Senior at Hershey in 2006. The Country Squire is a great original car that I bought for touring, but there is no way it would ever come close to a 1st Place award on ANY AACA showfield. I plan to either wait 3 years until it is 35 years old and take it to a meet in the Historic Preservation of Original Features (HPOF) class or else I may take it to a meet in Driver Participation Class (DPC). There are only 2 small parts on the Country Squire visible in the engine compartment that are obviously not original Ford Parts. Most people could not find those 2 parts, but the car's condition is such that it would never win an AACA First Junior. I love the Country Squire, and it is great fun to drive, but it is not a show car. It is a great historical time capsule, but it will never be on a showfield trying to compete with restored cars.

If your car is original, but showing the normal wear that you would expect from its age, you might want to consider HPOF.

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65Newyorker - I'm in Ephrata, PA and would be happy to take a look at your car and make some suggestions. I've been in your shoes a couple of time with the 73 Ford that my grandfather bought new. I've decided not to restore the car but I did do some cleaning in order to get my Senior a few years ago. Drop me an email at iceman5@ptd.net if you are interested.

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Windjamer,

I don't know what you are talking about... but I would suggest that over restored cars in your class SHOULD NEVER cost anybody any points. If the judges PROPERLY understand and follow the judging guidelines, the overrestored cars do NOT get any extra points. The problem is that it is difficult to get people to follow the rules on this matter.

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Matt I dont think I said anything wrong, but will try to explane. There is no deduction for overrestored,also no premium,But and this is where the cheese gets runny,too many times a judge looks at a car that has had a hundred thousand doller restoration and thinks they should all look like that. My first atempt for a GN was at Buffalow. I watched a team spend 12-15 min. on my car,I rec a second. They spent about the same time on the car next to me and moved to the car next to him. I swear to God they looked under the hood as if in auh and where gone!! Never opened a door never droped to a knee, where there just long enough to write the name and number on the sheet and GONE!!! The engine compartment was fabuless, I think you could use any part to comb your hair, I worked for a dellership, they didnt leave the fac. like that. My second attemp was at Dover, I think thats where I saw Stans Ford. There where two vechs. that where so over restored I cant evan describe it . All three cars I mention rec. a first, I watched as the team took pts. from I think Stans car for a paint run inside the right front fender,yet its pretty obvious his car has never been repainted. You are right, over restoration should not influence the judges, tell that to some of the judges.

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The point that I was trying to make was that if a car correctly restored, or in original (not worn) condition, received a deduction because it did not look as "good" as an over restored car next to it, the judges made a mistake.

The guidelines and all of the training that I have attended certainly try to make sure the judges understand that. The problem is the judges are all individual human beings. Unfortunately, No system has yet been designed to make those individual human beings function exactly as intended all of the time.

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I agree with windjamer. I know when we first started showing my 'cuda at the Chrysler Classic events we were consistantly getting beat by an all original 69 Plymouth GTX with 20k on the odometer. I have always felt that original, low mileage cars don't seem to get the respect that they deserve in the AACA. I know when my 'cuda was being restored, we were looking at any original cuda we could find to figure out what was correct and correct assembly procedures.

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Hey guys thanks for all of the info!I would like to encourage everyone to take a look at the pics i have posted in the aaca photo gallery!Chrysler heading pages 1-4&5!I've owned this car for 28yrs & have some "DOCUMENTATION" but no judge has ever asked to see any.I also have been showing the car at the ALL CHRYSLER NATIONALS in Carlisle for the past 18yrs.It's been in the SURVIVOR SERIES & has won 1st place in it's class many times.What this means is i'm not a rookie when it comes to Chrysler-Dodge or Plymouth autos.Maybe the judges don't have an issue with the correctness but with condition?With that out of the way i contacted AACA headquarters & spoke to Steve Moskowitz.He said that my car scored a very high & respectable score,but did not get the 1st Junior because of the 10-POINT RULE!I'm getting frustrated because there is another 65 Chrysler that has been restored & has received a 1st Junior a Senior & a Repeat Preservation!This car is not & never has been in my class at Hershey!I'm not going to mention what class it was in or name the owner of this car because i feel like that's not fair to him or her.The owner of that car looked at my car & was very impressed with it.He said this car should get a 1st Junior "NO PROBLEM"!I had another owner-judge look at it & he said the same thing.Maybe it's just me?

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 65Newyorker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Maybe the judges don't have an issue with the correctness but with condition? </div></div>

This is most likely the reason. You might have been out by just one point. And it does happen. It happened in the class I was Team Captain of at Hershey this year.

Get a copy of the judging sheet and look at the highlighted areas. Be honest, what is the condition of that area when you look at it in good light?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">With that out of the way i contacted AACA headquarters & spoke to Steve Moskowitz.He said that my car scored a very high & respectable score,but did not get the 1st Junior because of the 10-POINT RULE!I'm getting frustrated...</div></div>

Now set about fixing what you find if you are able to do that. You will start chipping away at the points being taken off. Look hard, is all of the vehicle free of old dirt, oily/greasy grime and corrosion? If not then get out that rag and cleaner and get to work. Many people overlook the antenna and it is pitted and covered in filth. There goes a point right there. Also, people don't clean the rain gutters on cars that had them. There goes another point or two. See how it adds up fast?

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Newyorker I rec a second at the Grand nat. in Buffalow, took the car home and had both rear quarters replaced with fac. nos.New trunk mldg and if i remember right 1200 bucks for new paint. Took it to Dover and rec. a 3ed. Dont give up,thats my advice. New Bern 2010, here I come.

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MCHinson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Found it.

Lots of good advice here: </div></div>

Thanks for finding it. I just got back home from giving out Trick-or-Treat candy for a friend so that she and her husband could both go out with their kids.

I started that thread to help people understand how easy it is to lose points. And that even one point can cost them the award they were going after. And many times it is as simple as cleaning the grime off of the radio antenna, clean the rain gutters, use a soft toothbrush to get that extra bit of wax out of the script on the fenders, make sure the headlights all match by brand and era within the brand, etc.

Let the details slide and so will your chances of that dreamed of First Junior or Senior award.

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Did the guys at your flea market space tell you I stopped by? They said that you had mentioned me and that they would tell you.

I am not sure about the Gettysburg show. But I think we are thinking of going to it.

I will have to ask Bill what he might be looking for. I know he tries to find whatever he can before it all disappears. Sooner or later the NOS parts have to dry up.

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I've owned this car for 28yrs & have some "DOCUMENTATION" but no judge has ever asked to see any</div></div>If the judge's don't ask, tell your Team Captain when they come to judge the vehicle. Tell the team captain that the car has x,y,z options and you have the documentation. Get your scoresheet, review it, and look to see where there's something wrong. If you tell the Team Captain about something with the car <span style="font-style: italic">before</span> it's judged, then he can correct the judge when they go to make a deduction.

I have a Ford fire truck that has a red frame, and was later told that the frame was supposed to be black, therefor it was wrong. For a Ford truck, I know it's wrong, but for an American LaFrance fire truck, it is correct. To avoid getting nailed for an incorrect frame color, the first thing I tell the team when they arrive is that American LaFrance painted their fire truck frames the body color. I have the original pictures of the truck, and I have documentation to prove it.

There was a recent incident where someone tried to deduct for a 1951 Chevy truck with a black engine. The person who restored the truck told the team captain that the engine was assembled at the North Townawanda plant, and they painted the engine black. Had the restorer of the vehicle not told the team that, the vehicle would've gotten a deduction for having a black engine and not a gray engine. Your car may have something unique to it that the judges aren't aware of, but you're getting a deduction because you're not telling them of the item in question, and they don't know about it. Tell the Team Captain before they start judging your vehicle. That may be all it is.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">my car scored a very high & respectable score,but did not get the 1st Junior because of the 10-POINT RULE</div></div>As I said before, that's part of the problem with Hershey. Hershey tends to run so much bigger, where there are often more cars than the other shows. If you really want to agonize, try having a car that has enough points to win a Senior Grand National, but you lost your First Grand National over <span style="font-weight: bold">the 5 point spread</span>. That hurts even more. Going to a smaller meet may be all that you need. There are members of this forum that won't bring cars out to Hershey for the exact reason that I'm telling you.

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 65Newyorker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The thing about all of this is that there's no chance of getting the same judges each year!This to me means they will likely find different deductions each year!This could end up being a real battle trying to get a 1st Junior or Senior award!

If you would like to see some pics of my car i have some posted in the photo gallery at aaca.org </div></div>

You really can't tell anything from the pictures (though I hope you didn't have the fuzzy dice at Hershey). It would be interesting to see what condition the engine compartment is in.

And if the next year another set of judges see more deductions, then fix those if you want to still compete. I would think that is the fun part about competing. However if you do not want to fix the flaws than DNJ and just enjoy the car. I have found out the closer I take my car to perfection, people still find things to point out as they are more obvious as the flaws get fewer and the car gets in better shape.

Also don't expect human judges to find everything that is wrong. I was at a small concours this year competing aginst a 29 LaSalle. The owner mentioned that he was highly confident in his car as it had won a first palce at a National Cadillac LaSalle meet. Well these judges found his left rear fender radius was different than the right one. It had been in an accident and not fixed correctly. I wouldn't had noticed, but it was noticable once it was pointed out. He also had polished stainless steel bolts all over in the engine compartment. That should had been a major deduction in both events. I ended up winning against him, but might had not if the fender hadn't been noticed.

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I was involved in a similar situation where a new antique car owner did not understand why he could not win an award. Was very awkward trying to explain to him that it was the general overall condition of the car that prevented him from winning and that his scoring sheets varied because the judges would concentrate on different, less than show quality, details at each judging.

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">the judges would concentrate on different, less than show quality, details at each judging</div></div>It could be the same judge judging something different than the year before.

I don't always judge chassis. There are times when I'll judge exterior, one occassion where I've judged interior, and never judged engines. There have been times where I've judged the same vehicle in both the chassis and exterior over the years.

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Also, they may be up against a judge that has that very car sitting in their garage at home, or used to have it. They know it like the back of their hand and catch all kinds of things that another judge won't catch.

Case in point, tire size. The owner has put tires on that are one size up or down. If they are the correct style tire then they might get away with it. If they get a judge that knows the size is wrong they are going to lose a ton of points, tires, wheels, hubcaps etc.

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shop Rat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Case in point, tire size. The owner has put tires on that are one size up or down. If they are the correct style tire then they might get away with it. If they get a judge that knows the size is wrong they are going to lose a ton of points, tires, wheels, hubcaps etc. </div></div>

Susan, I ran into this issue at my first attempt at having my '63 Buick Electra judged in AACA in 2007. I received a 2nd Junior and wrote to the VP of Judging to get the judging sheet with the deduction areas marked on it. I was surprised to see the tires received a deduction as they were correct Uniroyal, same brand as the never used original spare in the trunk, bias ply tires with the correct 1" whitewall width. Only difference was they were 8:20 X 15 instead of the original 8:00 X 15 size since no one makes the 8:00 X 15 with a 1" whitewall. They are only available with a 3" whitewall according to Coker and Universal tire.

If I understand the judging manual correctly, I have to write to the VP of Judging with proof from a couple of tire dealers indicating the exact size tire is not available? Is that correct?

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  • 5 months later...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: windjamer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Stan, if your Ford is blue with a paint run on the inside fight front fender (from the factory)the only reason you dont have your Grand Nat. is due to over restored cars in your class.Your car deserves a Gn award </div></div>

So preference is being given to cars that are OVER restored than cars that have runs and orange peel and such that definitely left the factory that way? Lets face it, these cars were produced on an average of one car a minute (at least thats what a factory worker said in an interview for my Mopar) Back then, they didn't care if the car had runs or looked good, they were built to get them sold and out on the road.

I too have been burned and lost out on a deserving award at a GN show cause of over restored cars. Just burns my arse that AACA focuses on "factory" yet gives awards to cars that are over restored to factory conditions. mad.gif

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Over restoration does not garner any extra consideration or points. It also does not cause points to be taken off. Those are the rules.

Over restoration is hard to avoid. Think about it, if you saw work come out of a resoration shop/paint shop that was as bad as you yourself describe that came from the factory, would you spend your hard earned money there? I don't think so. People want top quality for their dollar. That is one reason why over restoration is hard to avoid.

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resq302,

While any thing involving human beings is subject to human error....

Susan is right. I have only been judging since 2006 so I do not have anywhere near as much experience as Susan. I assure you that judging "by the book", will make sure that overrestoration does not gain any points. If you did not receive the award you sought, I hope you wrote the VP of class judging to get information on where deductions were taken. I would also suggest you find a friendly judge to go over your car with you and see what a judge can find. It is amazing what a "fresh" second set of eyes can sometimes find.

I have been lucky enough to take a Model A Ford that was restored in 1989 through 1st Junior and Senior in 2006 to Grand National in 2007 and Senior Grand National in 2008 without having any trouble.

I did that by doing a lot of work to improve the old restoration after I bought it in 2006, having an experienced judge go over the car to point out things that were wrong that I had not noticed, and by getting involved in judging to learn more about the system.

Find somebody else to look over the car and help you find some of the small items that might have escaped your attention. I would also suggest that you get involved in judging. Understanding the system assists you in working your way through the system. Good luck.

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Both of our cars, the 70 el camino SS 396 and the 69 Charger have received their junior and Senior awards out at the Hershey shows. Granted, when we had our el camino to the GN show at Dover, DE a couple years ago there were a couple cars in our class that had the satin black engine compartment painted a gloss which to me is not correct. Some view it as over restored but in all essence, is NOT correct as it is not the correct sheen or shade. From what I have heard, again, only here say, that vehicle scored a perfect score while we got a second due to the 5 pt rule. Again, I have no proof since the scores are not technicallly given out, but that is what I heard. It just disappoints me that you go all out to make things correct to the way they were supposed to be only to get beat out by something that looks pretty and pleasing to the eye compared to something that is factory correct.

I am not saying that our el camino is a perfect 400 point car. I am sure that it is not since we drive it to most shows (unless it is out of state, then we trailer it) as it does have some stone chips and rash that have been touched up. I can assure you that if it was not for the 5 point rule, our car would have had its Junior GN award since it did score over the minimum amount to receive a first. However, the 5 point rule did us in. If it were the 10 point rule like the national shows have, we would also have had our Junior GN award. Bottom line is that it seems like consideration is not given to originallity or factory correctness versus what the car has. My case in point is the above argument!

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The problem is that if you did not request the highlighted judging sheet, you have no real idea where you lost your points. It may have not had anything at all to do with what you think you lost points on. If I were you, I would go ahead and write the VP of Class Judging (even at this late date) and request the information. I suspect that they will still get it to you. Then, have an experienced judge go over the car with you. A fresh set of eyes may be able to show you something that you have missed.

Case in point...

My local highly experienced judge is not really a Model A Expert, he is a Mustang Expert. He helped me find many things wrong with my Model A and it helped me go all the way to Junior Grand National.

After I had received my Junior Grand National, I met a very experienced Model A Judge at another National Show. I had him take a look at the car and he pointed out something to me that I had not noticed. It looked good, but it involved the wrong finish on several bolts. I went home and looked over the all of my literature and discovered that the original restorer had made a mistake and I had not noticed it. I sure got that corrected before I went for the Senior Grand National. If that judge had not looked at the car, I suspect that I would not have received the Senior Grand National.

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