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What happened to the Model T Ford SPEEDSTER Ban at AACA National


1937hd45
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Bob, this was the one I talked about when we met in Hershey. He had a spot in the flea market just behind me and I saw him pull it out of the trailer around 7:00 AM. I went to look at it, since it was similar to mine. It was VERY nice, but a Rootlieb speedster none the less. It was done up as a Fire Chief's car with repro brass and a completely repro body from Rootlieb. It ahd step plates, brass moto meter with wings and fire accessories such as siren and axes (NONE of which came from the Ford factory). When I leaned close to the car to hear a particular noise, He yelled, "DON'T TOUCH THE CAR, I'M PUTTING IT IN THE SHOW!!!" Now don't get me wrong, I have a similar speedster and it's not nearly as nice as his. But why did they let it on the show field?????

Frank

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I don't think that they are "banned". You just lose major points for nonauthentic body components. Perhaps the appropriate deductions (or at least some of them) were taken? I am guessing this is the vehicle...

Class 10B

Third Junior

1914 Ford........................Charles T. Gagel, Orange, CT

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The non-authentic body rule is described on page 18 of the Judging Guidelines. </div></div>

A must have for AACA and Forum Members discussing Judging issues. $5.00 or free, if you attend Judging School! wink.gif

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MCHinson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't think that they are "banned". You just lose major points for nonauthentic body components. Perhaps the appropriate deductions (or at least some of them) were taken? I am guessing this is the vehicle...

Class 10B

Third Junior

1914 Ford........................Charles T. Gagel, Orange, CT </div></div>

How in the world did a car with a incorrect body, incorrect suspension and incorrect engine get a Third Junior? confused.gif

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Not only did it have incorrect suspension, body, and engine, it had step plates, motometer, wings, incorrect color, and non-factory accessories. With all of the comments from the career judges on the 'Etiquette' thread, I wonder why none have given their two cents on this one....

Frank

PS, I'm not a judge, but I know Model T Fords, and I could count at least 200 points in deductions for incorrect stuff on this car. "As it left the factory??? Yeah, Really.

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oldford</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"As it left the factory??? Yeah, Really. </div></div>

Just a few months ago we lost a long-time friend that knew probably as much as there is to know about Model T Fords. He learned to drive in one. He bled Ford Blue if you cut him. He was the Service Manager of the largest Ford dealership in our area. His ashes were transported to the cemetery in a Ford when he died.

According to him, it would be hard to find very many Model T's that are 100% correct. People modify them to make them run better, climb hills better, easier/safer to start, be a color they like better than <span style="font-weight: bold">BLACK </span> and the list goes on and on.

And we are slowly losing this knowlege as folks like him pass on. frown.gif

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I'm not a Model T expert so I will not argue on any of the discussions of as it left the factory. I was surprised to see it in the stock class. I expected to see it with the fire trucks where modifications after the factory are expected.

I know the owner, mainly because his Mother and Father were are Chocolate field neighbors for years and I would see Charlie most years when he came down to help them out. I looked at the T when it was in the trailer, not as a judge but just someone that appreciates a unique car. It was Charlie's first attempt at a high end restoration and it was a Father/Daughter project. It sounds like he should have done more homework and perhaps the team captain for that class should have given him some advice (maybe he did since I saw Charlie after the judging and he didn't expect to win anything).

I believe some of the comments are getting a little nasty and would certainly discourage someone from trying to restore a car for a National show. It certainly isn't the only car being showed that has a lot of new parts.

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I think I may have been misinterpreted. I thought the car was restored very well. It is far better than my 1912 Ford touring and anyone would be hard pressed to find any cosmetic flaws. The point of my discussion was authenticity, remember, this is being shown in the premier AACA show and was billed as a 1914 Model T Ford. I know there are many, many Model T's that have later parts on them, mine included. But it should have been judged as a 1914 Ford as it could have left the factory. Do we forgive modifications in AACA shows for Fords, since "People modify them to make them run better, climb hills better, easier/safer to start, be a color they like better than BLACK!" I also have some parts on my Ford that are later,

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oldford</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...this is an AACA show that demands the highest standards. Why do we settle for less?</div></div>

Oldford, many members share your curiosity as well. There's been more than enough inconsistency with this type of thing in the last few years.

As for the judges weighing in on this matter...that's another interesting question. sleep.gif

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I hope that what I have said and am about to say does not seem mean spirited because it is not meant in that manner. I am sure the owner restored his car the way he wanted to restore it. I am glad to hear that it was a Father/Daughter restoration. That is an excellent example of what this hobby is all about. Perhaps DPC would have been a better class to register it in.

I know Model A's and can really be a pain in the butt when I judge Model A's (even though I try not to be too nit-picky). I am not a Model T expert but I have had an occasion to judge Model T's before. I have not seen this car, as I was unable to attend Hershey this year.

I think that the basic thing to remember is that AACA Judging will never be perfect because the judges are all human beings and not robots. It is an imperfect system, but it strives to be as good and consistent as possible. Judges will give the benefit of the doubt when they are unsure. I am sure that I have let some incorrect stuff get by me in the past when I was judging a class that I did not know as much about as I would have liked. The benefit of the doubt always goes to the car. You don't take a deduction unless you are SURE that something deserves a deduction. Obviously some major deductions were taken on this car for it to receive a 3rd Junior. I am sure that all of us who have been around AACA for any time at all, have seen examples of cars that appear to have received awards that they should not have received. Hopefully, we have not seen too many cases where a car incorrectly was denied an award that it deserved. Sounds like the system worked for the most part in this example. Anybody who is unhappy with how the judging system works should get involved in judging and work together with everybody to improve the quality of judging.

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Restorer32</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For several years I have thought AACA judging has been becoming too lenient. I, for one, want an AACA trophy to continue to mean something. </div></div>

I agree 100%. For every trophy given out to a car that is <span style="font-weight: bold">obviously</span> incorrect, it lessens the "status" of being a AACA National Winner.

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I have been debating for several days whether or not to comment. I hope my comments aren't viewed as argumentative.

First, how is this car different than the Model T Ford Depot Hacks that have won 1st Junior and Senior awards, aside from the incorrect chassis components?

Second, my guess is that the owner and his daughter are proud of the restoration, and justifiably so; it looks great. I applaud them for bringing it out while most of the rest of us left our cars at home in the garage.

Typically, there is a lack of early cars shown, so good for them. My guess is that most people that looked at it on Saturday didn't know about the incorrect items.

In light of these things, does the 3rd Junior hurt anyone?

Respectfully,

Chris Paulsen

McPherson, Kansas

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I'm not a T expert by any strech. But was the T availble as a chassis with engine, hood, etc, no body for the purpose of being a truck? that would be the differance compared to being made into a speedster which I don't think Ford intended to be.

Just a thought.

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Depot Hacks and Hucksters are allowed (in my opinion) via section 5B of the Exterior judging guidelines.

"Precise identical duplication of a complete body or any part of the vehicle’s original body, as fitted to the chassis of the original vehicle when purchased new by the original owner is acceptable, provided such duplication is reasonably required by the absence, destruction, or deterioration

beyond repair. This would also include the duplication of a “First” body, supplied by a recognized outside source to a vehicle that was originally offered as “Chassis only”. Such an example would be the Commercial and Station Wagon bodies mounted on the Ford Model T Chassis."

Frank

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There has never been a ban on showing a Model T Speedster at an AACA National Meet. However, if the judging team does its job correctly the point deductions should easily add up to enough to take the vehicle below the minimum required for any of the various awards. Note I said "IF" the judging team has done its job correctly. The greatest majority of the time that is what happens. Sometimes however as humans we do make mistakes. There is no excuse for it on this well known speedster. It is mentioned in virtually every judging school every year. Although I can recall one around 1985 that actually wore a First Junior badge. Truthfully that should have been one of those rare occasions that the award is "officially" revoked. though it wasn't.

The problem isnt that the "Speedster" is encouraged to be shown. AACA certainly does not do that. The problem is that when an owner fills out the car registration it often reads something like this...

1914 Ford T, 4 cyl. Roadster

sounds quite legit, right... then enters the field long after registration has accepted the entry card. The people on the field parking cars are volunteers and may or may not be aware, nor could it matter at that time anyway. So no one is encouraging them. There is simply no rule in place that says if they are properly registered they cannot enter the show field. When they do manage to get in though, we are hopeful the judging team will do its job and take the appropriate deductions.

As for the questions about the Depot Hacks and station Wagons on the "T" chassis. As most of you know "T"'s were available and could be bought in "Chassis Only" form. On rare occasion T's have been shown in the T class as Chassis Only. This is legitimate. The various Ford agents of the day in cooperation with Siverson often advertized the availability of the Siverson Wooden Body Hack. Ford also used such ads from time to time. Dealers even offered to install the "Factory Authorized" Siverson wood body on the newly purchased chassis for the customer. Thus this type of body was "Grandfathered" into the AACA judging system long before any of us became judges. Even had it not been by virtue of Ford's occasional use of the advertizing a sufficient argument could have been made for the "Factory Authorized" part which we would today accept as authentic. While it is certainly possible though awfully remote that such similar advertizing could have established something similar for the "Speedster" body, the judging committee has never seen it. Even if it did exist the other modifications that generally take place on the speedsters should still score it down to beyond contention for any award.

Now to the reality of the Model T speedster.... They are a really fun car to own and drive, albeit a tad risky for an unaware passenger as my wife can attest to! I agree they should not be awarded judging prizes but I would have one in a minute just to have a good time with it.

I hope this info will clear up some of the speculation on this vehicle.

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Thanks for the info Dave, NEVER knew Siverson was making bodies in the 1920's while Ford was turning out Model T's, ya learn something new every day. All this time I thought they started in the 1950's when the cabinet shop had some free time. AACA judging was better years ago, I threw in the towl after 30 years of it.

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I do not recall any talks of any type of modified class for the Model T. The closest that ever came up as I recall was several years ago when the "Historic Street Rod" display only class was being talked about. That group was more for later pre 49 vehicles but could have included the T, I imagine.

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  • 3 weeks later...

I have known Charlie Gagel and his family for over 30 years and first saw his beautiful "Fire Chief's" car last August. However, at Hershey, I was surprised to see it listed as an entrant in Class 10B (1913-1916 Model-T). When I met Charlie there, I asked why he did not enter his car in the Commercial class where I thought he would have a better chance of receiving an award. He replied that in over 40 years of attendance at Hershey, no one in his family had ever entered a vehicle and he was glad now to be able to do so. Winning an award was of minimal importance. After being judged, he related to me that the Team Captain repeatedly pointed out the evident mandatory deductions which Charlie acknowledged. Apparently the judging was done "by the book", yet provided the necessary points for a Third Junior. FYI to all concerned: The vehicle was pre-registered as: "1914 Ford, 4 cyl, <span style="text-decoration: underline">SPEEDSTER</span>", NOT "Touring" or "Roadster". Had the Region questioned this initially, and perhaps suggested the Commercial Class or Fire Apparatus Class, all this controversy could have been avoided and Charlie would be just as satisfied, award or not! Personally, I could not be happier for his achievement!

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