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Asbestos in old cars?


Guest jumpinjivinjoe

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Guest jumpinjivinjoe

I have a 1936 dodge and a 1957 mercury and we all know that brake linings have asbestos but what else in our antique cars contain asbestos? I suspect the firewall insulation and the woven wire insulation contain asbestos. Are these suspicions correct? And what else in our cars contain asbestos?

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  • 3 weeks later...

Asbestos containing items can be found just about anywhere. From brake linings, clutch facings, undercoating, sound proofing, exhaust and other gaskets, cloth tubing covers, body putty (I hear that angel hair was not really angel's hair) and cloth-like wiring insulation.

The key is not to make dust. Do not use compressed air to “blow” out brake drums. Try to wet the material prior to disturbing it. Clean up with wet towels (then throw them away). Do not use a regular "shop vacuum." Purchase a good quality respirator with HEPA filters. Make sure your healthy enough to wear one.

Do not panic, we all have been around asbestos at some time. The one thing most of us have going for us regarding “new” exposure is that we are old. Asbestos related diseases typically have a long latency period (30-40 years).

Oh almost forgot, do not smoke. Smoking increase your potential for developing an asbestos related disease up to 100 times more than someone that does not smoke.

Don't forget that some paints contained Lead. Wear respirator & wash hands prior to eating.

Oh what a fun subject.

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you will find a minute amount of asbestos in all old cars ,in my opinion not enough to worry about ,most of it is in the brake linings. my father inlaw was a mechanic all his working life he must of changed thousands of set of brake linings in his life time , he died at 86 and not from asbestos poisining . a few years ago i found a coil of asbestos string at a swap meet and bought it, i have since used it on three cars to wrap around the fuel line to help with vapour lock and am not worried one bit about it

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I volunteer in a transport museum here in Scotland and we have just gone through a full program of asbestos removal from all our transport related objects. All of our vintage cars, railway engines, streetcars, motorcycles, trucks and buses had dedicated teams brought in to remove every last particle of the stuff - it was wild.

What became very apparent was that these young professional conservators had no idea just how much asbestos was used in the manufacture of old vehicles. When I pointed out, much to their surprise that it wasn't used only around things that got hot but also used for insulation and sound deadening hidden inside body panels it opened up a whole new world for them - and of course increased the costs to remove it.

The quantities varied, for example, the Albions used sheets of the stuff all around their engines for heat insulation, the Stanley had it sprayed around the boiler, the steam railway engines had most of their pipes and boilers lagged in it, and on and on. The vintage Rolls Royces had very little in comparison to some of the less expensive contemporary cars of their day, but it was still evident.

At the end of the day most of our old vehicles will have asbestos in one form or another in them, it comes down to safe handling and suitable alternatives if we decide we don't want it in our cars. But I feel it'd be a big job as it used everywhere, for example would it be considered necessary to remove oil soaked asbestos crankshaft seals?

One last thing, and I'm only speaking for my end of the world, once the asbestos is removed it can't just be thrown into the trash, it has to be collected by specialist companies - and these guys know how to charge!

Argyll. wink.gif

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There is a difference between a life of exposure to something in a factory setting where there was much dust and what goes on now. Asbestos is not going to kill on contact. In fact, you could probably grind it off and it wouldn't do you any harm. Spend the next 10 years grinding the stuff and then maybe there would be an issue.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb5617/is_200205/ai_n23624265

"Jan. 1990 edition of Science magazine concluding the health hazard presented by casual exposure to asbestos building products was miniscule to nonexistent. Various public policy commentators made the same case, but sensible analysis was drowned out by the combined forces of junk science, bureaucratic inertia and news media blather."

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: alsancle</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There is a difference between a life of exposure to something in a factory setting where there was much dust and what goes on now. Asbestos is not going to kill on contact. In fact, you could probably grind it off and it wouldn't do you any harm. Spend the next 10 years grinding the stuff and then maybe there would be an issue.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb5617/is_200205/ai_n23624265

"Jan. 1990 edition of Science magazine concluding the health hazard presented by casual exposure to asbestos building products was miniscule to nonexistent. Various public policy commentators made the same case, but sensible analysis was drowned out by the combined forces of junk science, bureaucratic inertia and news media blather." </div></div>

smile2skull.gifskull.gif <span style="color: #FF0000"><span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">This is dangerous misinformation!</span></span></span> skull.gifsmile2skull.gif

Media and Science: Harmless Dioxin, Benign CFCs, and Good Asbestos (Environmental Health Perspectives V.102, N.1, Jan94):

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The 19 January 1990 issue of Science carried a well-publicized report that asbestos exposure in public buildings is being over-regulated. The argument is made by Mossman and others (<span style="text-decoration: underline">most associated with the asbestos industry</span>) that chrysotile fibers are less toxic than other forms and pose minimal risk at low doses.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Ignored in the Mossman account are countervailing human data on the carcinogenic effects of chrysotile asbestos (including large numbers of mesotheliomas among Canadians) and the finding of mesothelioma, largely from chrysotile asbestos exposure, among family members of workers who are exposed to low doses. Moreover, asbestos seldom appears in a pure form, and a threshold of effect has never been found.</span>

There was little, if any, press coverage of the refutation of the Mossman article in letters to the editor of Science. With the New York Times accounts, it seems that not enough knowledgeable scientists were interviewed to get the whole story. Certainly, few were named. Ties to industry were not explored. Few of the many letters to the editor challenging the factual basis for much of the material were printed.

The coverage in Science is somewhat more complicated. Too few scientists with special expertise on key issues were given the opportunity to express their views at the same time and in the same issue with equal prominence and space. After-the-fact letters to the editor have less likelihood of coverage in the popular press. More careful peer review would have helped.

How do we correct these mistakes in editorial policy and reporting? Most of the public does not read Science, the Journal of the American Medical Association, or any other professional journal. But journalists and publicists who specialize in these issues do. The first line of defense against bad science and medical reporting is, then, an internal review of editorial policies and practices of professional journals with a better focus on the fact that part of the readership is the lay press. A renewed effort to balance controversial views in the same issue and to invite letters and commentary for publication in the same issue is a necessity. The presentation of views by scientists requires vigilance not only on what is said, but on how and when opposite views are published. These actions could assist in ensuring that the public is well and accurately informed.</div></div>

When looking for business information, look in business publications (like the publication that repeated this absurd misinformation in 2002, here linked by alsuncle). When looking for scientific informartion, look in scientific publications. In either case, <span style="text-decoration: underline">always</span> look at enough to get a consistent consensus.

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The EPA web site has a very good synopsis of the health effects of asbestos. <span style="text-decoration: underline">It <span style="font-style: italic">is</span> bad stuff!</span> See: Asbestos and Astestos Health Effects.

One of the cancers most often associated with asbestos is mesothelioma. You effectively can't get this form of lung cancer any other way. Steve McQueen lost his life to the disease. His exposure driving race cars was relatively small (much like our own), but in the Marines he was assigned duty for several months stripping asbestos insulation from ships. Given the gestation time for the disease it was probably this exposure that killed him. It killed many people who simply lived with those who came home from this kind of work with fibers on their clothes.

There is no safe level of exposure to air borne asbestos fibers. <span style="text-decoration: underline">Any</span> risk can kill you. It's best to minimize all possible exposures, and <span style="text-decoration: underline">never</span> invite any new exposures.

If you're grinding away at asbestos, you're killing yourself and anyone else you're with or will come home to. <span style="font-weight: bold">DON'T DO IT!!!!!!!</span> shocked.gifeek.gif

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So, define "Any risk can kill you". Every house built prior to 1950 in this country was filled with asbestos in the basement and I'm willing to bet that 75% of the members of this board grew up with their basements full of the stuff. We are all still here. Is it going to kill me when I'm 90?

If you want to talk risk mathematically, you are 100000 times more likely to get killed driving to work then by asbestos exposure from your antique car.

I'm not saying you should eat the stuff but I question the notion of death on contact. I think there is a bit of irrational fear mongering at work.

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further to what i said before about my father in law , my wifes uncle was a builder , he used to cut asbestos roofing with a circular saw without a mask , when the big scare came in about asbestos , his words were oh s... i suppose i'll die fom it , then he was about 80 , when he passed on he was 88, he died from cancer, but was it because of the asbestos or was it his time

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> So, define "Any risk can kill you". Every house built prior to 1950 in this country was filled with asbestos in the basement and I'm willing to bet that 75% of the members of this board grew up with their basements full of the stuff. We are all still here. Is it going to kill me when I'm 90? </div></div>

The issue with asbestos is with its friability (it's easily crumbled into smaller and smaller sharp particles) which then become airborne and inhaled where they slice the hell out of your lungs. These particles don't get cleared from your lungs and will continue to cause damage. That's why it is particularly dangerous; Asbestos that gets in there stays there slicing and dicing away at your lung tissue.

Asbestos-wrapped pipes and the like should be professionally removed or encapsulated to eliminate the risk of the microscopic particles of the material becoming airborne and yes, undisturbed within a firewall or inside your old oil burner doesn't pose much of a risk, but for your own sake please don't buy into the notion that the dangers of asbestos are some overblown conspiracy cooked up by trial lawyers and egg-head academics.

Anecdotes of people who had exposure to asbestos and managed to die from something other than asbestosis or mesothelioma does not indicate that the risks are being hyped any more that the story of "old uncle joe" who smoked 3 packs and ate a pound of bacon every day and lived to 90 provides evidence of the prudence of such a lifestyle.

I'm in construction and deal with asbestos on almost a daily basis. This is serious stuff, and having a cavalier attitude towards it is foolish in the extreme.

post-30931-143138007118_thumb.jpg

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So, define "Any risk can kill you". </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The issue with asbestos is with its friability (it's easily crumbled into smaller and smaller sharp particles) which then become airborne and inhaled where they slice the hell out of your lungs. These particles don't get cleared from your lungs and will continue to cause damage. That's why it is particularly dangerous; Asbestos that gets in there stays there slicing and dicing away at your lung tissue.

</div></div>

What Roger says is true, but it's also true of fiberglass, glass wool, and many other fiberous materials. However there's a big difference between the kinds of problems this can cause (e.g. silicosis) and cancer. Asbestos goes one step further.

In order for something to cause cancer, it has to interact with the body at the molecular level. The fact of the matter is that a single molecule of any carcinogen is what it takes to get cancer, and that exposure is simply a numbers game balancing the mutagenic and/or biochemical interactions against the body's ability to rid/cleanse itself of the foriegn substance. (And as Roger noted, this is ne impossible to do with asbestos.)

One fiber of asbestos <span style="text-decoration: underline">can</span> kill you. It'll take about 20-40 years, but it's very possible. The more you allow yourself to inhale, the more you move that sentence from "can kill you" to "will kill you".

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This is serious stuff, and having a cavalier attitude towards it is foolish in the extreme. </div></div>

I'd go further than Roger would. Having a comfortable or complacent attitude towards asbestos is foolish in the extreme. Being cavalier enough the allow unnecessary exposures (i.e. by using old, now banned materials) is beyond foolish. Stronger, potentially insulting words are called for. eek.gifshocked.gif

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One fiber of asbestos <span style="text-decoration: underline">can</span> kill you. It'll take about 20-40 years, but it's very possible. </div></div>

And, as I've heard many times before here and elsewhere, <span style="font-weight: bold">should the second half of this statement give comfort to the senior citizens among us, just remember the first half the next time you hug your grandchildren.</span>

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One last thing, and I'm only speaking for my end of the world, once the asbestos is removed it can't just be thrown into the trash, it has to be collected by specialist companies - and these guys know how to charge! </div></div>

One thing I should've noted here, Argyll's statement here regarding professional disposal is generally not applicable in the U.S. to <span style="text-decoration: underline">amateur</span> restorers (at least in the areas I'm familiar with).

If you restore old cars <span style="text-decoration: underline">as a hobby</span> (<span style="font-style: italic">usually defined by the number of cars and whether you derive <span style="font-weight: bold">any</span> compensation for it</span>), then waste asbestos (brake linings, clutch linings, wrappings, undercoating*, etc.) is most likely defined in your area as a "Household Hazardous Waste" much like waste paint/fuel/pesticides/etc. Check with your local authorities for disposal requirements, which they probably will have even for old brake shoes. As long as 15 years ago there were communities in Pittsburgh that would refuse to pick up the garbage at your home if there were identifiable brake shoes in it.

For a good general safety procedure for this stuff, here's a link to the disposal procedures used in San Francisco. Bear in mind that while it may be still legal to throw these things away willy-nilly where you live, you'll still have the potential liability for it. If you're known to throw a lot of this stuff away irresponsibly and your garbageman happens to come down with mesothelioma, get ready to be sued even if it's part of a class action or a nuisance suit.

====================================

Also, here are 2 links to antiqe car asbestos articles from the U.K.:

Asbestos in old car components

Asbestos in Vintage Cars

=====================================

Here's something else I saw while googling, a MASTER LIST OF ASBESTOS MATERIALS listing for all applications. The automotive applications in the list surprised me, and I'm fairly knowledgable on the subject. Among the ones not listed so far on this thread:

1. Some automotive plastic decal stripes,

2. Plastic automotive air conditioner housings,

3. Rope gaskets,

4. Some spark plugs,

5. Inside some electrical motors/generators.

The first three are most likely non-friable if left alone. However they could easily be made friable during removal/modification/restoration. In particular the tape/decal stripes, which most of us would simply strip off with a Scotchbrite disc or something similar, need to be watched for. I have no idea how to tell if there's asbestos in a tape stripe, but hopefully the information is out there for your particular application.

Also drilling into an older plastic a/c housing could create some exposure as well. My 1960 Buick had a plastic housing around the heater controls on the firewall which had a fiberous texture to it. I'd be willing to bet that this was asbestos fibers embedded in the plastic as well.

=====================================

*Finally, I noted that disposing of stripped asbestos undercoating would be a household hazardous waste. However I seriously can't imagine a safe way to do this in a non-professional setting. If your car has a fiberous undercoating and you determine it to be asbestos (as you should before touching it), this should be removed professionally at a site distant from your home.

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  • 2 years later...
Guest kjleitch

I have a 1938 Plymouth - first time restore. Does anyone know if asbestos products were used on interior components for sound proofing?

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Guest De Soto Frank

The only use of asbestos I'm aware of in old cars was for boiler / piping on steam cars, and exhaust muffler wrap on racing cars. Oh, and friction material for clutches & brakes.

Chrysler Corps' sound proofing was either a thick tar sprayed / spead on the inside of door skins, or a waffle-type fibre board impregnated with some sort of water-resisting compound; Agasote comes to mind.

I have never heard of "asbestos abatement" regarding old cars. (Beyond older brake and clutch friction linings/dust.)

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Here's an old thread on the subject: ( http://forums.aaca.org/f169/asbestos-old-cars-251218.html ). There's a link in my post of 10/29/2008 to a master list of asbestos applications, including many automotive parts.

Besides the obvious brake and clutch surfaces, I be mainly wary of any fibrous material in exposed areas (i.e. line wrappings, wire insulation, coatings, etc.), as well as fibrous material inside electrical components.

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Guest Silverghost

My 1927 Springfield USA Rolls~Royce's original wool carpets have a very heavy 1/4" woven asbestos backing that is fastened to the carpet itself by the fancy edge binding !

The car was a "Barn-Find" and the carpets are heavily moth-eaten !

There is a thread on this forum about the carpet ~

In the 70s I used to restore early Corvettes.

At that time I would buy bags of Asbestos boiler cement to use with polyester resin to make a thickened body panel bonding strip adhesive~~

The asbestos boiler cement thickened and reinforced this adhesive.

You were after a tooth paste thickness for this adhesive.

This was a very common thing to do at this time.

Corvette restoration suppliers sold this pre-mixed mixture~

But I used so much I mixed my own large batches...

I bought asbestos boiler cement in 10 lb bags.

Early solid Axel Corvettes used this asbestos thickened bonding adhesive mixture at the GM Corvette factory from 1953 to 1967 !!!

All early vettes used this asbestos material throughout the entire fiberglass car body !

I cannot tell you how many times I sanded and used a heavy grinder on this stuff !

We were often covered from head to toe with this sanding dust ~

At least I am still here alive today~ I am 55 ~

That's about all I can say about it~

Check-back in a decade or two~ To see IF I am still alive ! ?

Edited by Silverghost (see edit history)
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Guest Jim_Edwards

Wow, you guys are going to have kjleitch totally paranoid about working on his vehicle.

I would suggest there are only four potential circumstances he may find asbestos on his '38 Plymouth. They are engine compartment cloth like insulated wiring, exhaust donuts, brake shoes, and possibly floor and firewall insulation, if any. Probably not anything in sufficient quantity to represent an asbestos health hazard unless ground up and intentionally inhaled.

Jim

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not anything in sufficient quantity to represent an asbestos health hazard unless ground up and intentionally inhaled.

I realize many of you are self-styled skeptics when it comes to anything relating to science, environmental hazards or health warnings, but I'm in construction and lemme tell you asbestos is not to be taken lightly.

The issue with asbestos is the particles you can't see. They're like microscopic razor blades and when they get into your lungs they never leave, they just keep slicing away at your lung tissue, and that's in addition to being highly carcinogenic.

At a minimum, 'cause one thing I've learned over the past decade here is that nothing is going to dissuade you guys from diving in.... work away from homes, wear an approved respirator (MUST have purple filters), and a disposable Tyvek suit with booties and a hood.

DO NOT just go in your home in the work clothes you were wearing and your hair loaded with microscopic particles, you may be comfortable with the risk to your old self, but it getting into the lungs of the younger just gives it more time to do its damage.

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I realize many of you are self-styled skeptics when it comes to anything relating to science, environmental hazards or health warnings, but I'm in construction and lemme tell you asbestos is not to be taken lightly.

Given the severity of this issue in the hobby, I'm going to bring the previous thread on this back to the top so that more people can read it.

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And I'm sure San Francisco has a good sensible approach to asbestos.

Did you actually click the link and read the single page? It boils down to a 6 step set of simple instructions. Actually only 5 steps as #5 is for small businesses and #6 is for residents. The instructions seem pretty reasonable to me (I am not a resident of SF):

  1. Wet the asbestos with water.
  2. Place the asbestos in 4 heavy duty trash bags (1.5 mils thick), one inside the other, and close with duct tape. (If you can find them, you can also use 2 special plastic bags for asbestos or "contractor bags" (3 mils thick) available from safety supply companies. Whatever type of bag you use, the total thickness of these bags must be 6 mils. Ducts and pipes must be no longer than 5 feet. If you can't find bags that are large, double wrap the ducts and pipes with heavy duty plastic and tape all seams with duct tape.
  3. Each bag should weigh no more than 30 pounds.
  4. Write "Waste Asbestos" on each bag.
  5. The disposal fee is 25 cents per pound for small businesses, and they must schedule an appointment in advance. Only San Francisco businesses that generate less than 220 pounds of waste per month may use this program. Call (415) 330-1425 for more information or to schedule an appointment.
  6. There is no fee for residents bringing asbestos from their homes, but there is a limit of 125 pounds per trip. The facility is open for residents Thursday - Saturday. Call (415) 330-1405 or visit our household hazardous waste page for hours, directions, and policies.

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just some food for thought, two and a half years ago my father an avid classic car collector/restorer and industrial plumber died from mesothelioma, asbestos is not something to be taken lightly. was it from his job or the exposure from his old cars?? it is unknown, but I can personally attest it is not an easy was to go, be careful, take reasonable precautions, not everyone who is exposed, will get mesothelioma, but why take the risk.

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Guest Jim_Edwards
just some food for thought, two and a half years ago my father an avid classic car collector/restorer and industrial plumber died from mesothelioma, asbestos is not something to be taken lightly. was it from his job or the exposure from his old cars?? it is unknown, but I can personally attest it is not an easy was to go, be careful, take reasonable precautions, not everyone who is exposed, will get mesothelioma, but why take the risk.

Sorry to hear about your Father, but a minor consolation might be knowing it was probably the job not the car hobby. Asbestos pipe insulation was used indiscriminately in all sorts of building and industrial applications for decades. No telling how much asbestos dust he might have been exposed to cutting that stuff to fit. Looked like harmless blackboard chalk reinforced with a cheese cloth like fabric and when cut the dust would fly just like beating a chalk board eraser. Far deadlier exposure than the amount that might be encountered by the removing of old brake shoes, which are the biggest and maybe the only major source of asbestos in a vintage car.

But then asbestos brake linings haven't been produced for now decades so the encountering of them will be on a pre 80s car that has been sitting for years and never having a brake job after asbestos linings were removed from the market. The old brake shoes themselves are not really all that much of a potential hazard, but the brake dust in the drums can be. Best not to blow that stuff out like we used to commonly do. Wash it out, or better yet dump it into a heavy plastic bag and dispose of it properly, then wash out the drum.

Jim

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  • 1 year later...
Guest bellaluna

unfortunately i have become quite knowledgeable about asbestos and Synthetic fibers used in the automotive industry. according to the very long toxicology reports online at the cdc, products that had been in use since the 1950's or longer were exempt from the new laws passed on Asbestos. and are still Wdely used in the automotive industry today. also to note that scientists have found that the synthetic fibers also used in the industry are almost as toxic as the asbestos they tried to replace. its not just that 57 chevy you need to worry about,its your 2009 one as well. Bella

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  • 4 years later...
Guest Mandy Younce Trujillo

my grandma used to work in an automobile Factory in the seventies and she died of lung cancer two years ago she was a smoker butt she quit smoking back in 96 and her lung cancer specialists told her it was not from smoking and he couldn't figure out why she got it could this be the reason that she got her lung cancer and is that the reason she declined so rapidly in 3 months please let me know

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My father is going through some lung problems right now. He was in the Navy and worked in construction all of his life. Asbestos was used in far more places then just in cars. I do not think a person could ever pin down where a person came in contact with a product that caused  lung problems, when looking back over the course of ones life. Sorry for your loss Mandy 

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