Carburetors Expoding? Whats with that?

[Tom Laferriere]

I was having a conversation with someone about today and the topic came up about Carb explosions. It could be as bad as shrapnel flying, dented hoods and people getting severely burned or possibly death.

I have not heard of this before. Being a Stanley Steamer owner, I am fully aware of "explosions", but from carbs??

OK, discuss.

[RocketDude]

I'm sure you will hear from more qualified people on the subject, but in my over forty years of turning wrenches professionally, that would be a new one on me. I have seen numerous batteries explode, but never a carb. Perhaps the guy was running hydrazine for fuel?....

[Reatta Man]

Sounds like some facts are definitely missing.

Could he have been using E85 in a car that was NEVER intended to run on nearly pure alcohol?

Hmmmm.......

[Rusty_OToole]

Since carburetors have now been superseded by fuel injection for some 20 years, I can see how some green mechanics could be kidded into believing carburetors can explode (they can't) just like people used to believe Stanley boilers can explode (they can't either).

[Guest stude8]

A long time ago in 1955 a highschool friend had a customized 1950 Ford with a V8 engine and in the customization the carb had its factory air cleaner replaced with a "Hotrod" style flat filter that was clamped to the carb inlet body.

One hot summer day his father wanted to move the car over in the driveway to use another vehicle. When he started to crank the engine accumulated gas vapor in the manifold, carb and filter "backfired" and the resulting explosion blew the filter assembly upward hard enough to dent the newly painted hood with a nice 6 or 8 inch round impact mark.

Stude8

[JohnD1956]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: stude8</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A long time ago in 1955 a highschool friend had a customized 1950 Ford ..." and the resulting explosion blew the filter assembly upward hard enough to dent the newly painted hood with a nice 6 or 8 inch round impact mark.

Stude8 </div></div>

He probably went on to design and sell the first raised hood scoops on the T birds.

[Tom Laferriere]

The Carb in question is an older pot metal updraft carb. The conversation was about using this carb can be dangerous and "many" have exploded over the years. The person advising me of this problem has been in the auto business 40+ years. I have only turned wrenched for 25 years and I never heard of this, but I do have an open mind.

[jscheib]

With all due respect to Rusty, after spending about 40 years in the insurance loss prevention field, I would never say something " can't happen".

There may be no Stanley Steamer explosions, but there have been other steam engines at exhibits, etc that have "gone off" and injured people.

I also think backfire incidents of auto engines have been involved before, resulting in carburator or at least air cleaner explosions.

While indirectly related you might want to check your fan blades also, as I heard of one blade leaving the fan and with the hood up it pierced the fender. Don't want to be having your head over that engine either. A radiatoir man will not stick his head under the hood if a radiator pressure problem is expected either for fear of steam/hot water from a ruptured hose. Just some safety tips for this week, from an old safety engineer. Remember, what can happen, will happen (at some time or other)

John

[CarlLaFong]

Didn't a Stanley explode at Knott's Berry Farm in SoCal a number of years ago and kill it's owner.

[Rusty_OToole]

I am perfectly aware that you can get a backfire thru a carburetor but I don't see how it is possible for a carburetor to explode.

In order for a carburetor to explode it would have to be sealed tight. No carburetor is sealed that tight, if the gas inside was ignited it would escape as for example in a backfire situation.

Stanley boilers can't explode either. They are wound with layer upon layer of piano wire.

The Stanleys proved that their boiler cannot explode, many years ago they dug a pit in back of the factory and put one of their boilers at the bottom. They connected it to a steam pipe and built up pressure.

When the pressure reached more than twice what the boiler was rated for, it started to leak.

A tube inside the boiler collapsed, releasing steam pressure. They forced more steam in and another tube collapsed. This continued until the boiler was so leaky it was impossible for it to contain any pressure.

It never did explode. It was designed not to explode and it didn't.

[CarlLaFong]

Did some research. It was not the boiler. It was stupidity

http://www.steamcar.net/phorum/read.php?3,858,894

[R W Burgess]

Link doesn't work, John!

W.

[MCHinson]

Try cutting and pasting it into your browser. I had a little bit of trouble cutting and pasting it into my browser but it did eventually work that way. I tried to make it a clickable link, but gave up...

http://www.steamcar.net/phorum/read.php?3,858,894

[MCHinson]

And if you do that... this is what it will tell you....

Propane and the Steam car

Posted by: SSsssteamer (IP Logged)

Date: May 22, 2008 12:51AM

Discussion has recently been made on the Stanleysteamers web site about the use of propane fuel in the steam cars for pilot lights. Jim Crank did us the favor of recalling what can happen with propane fuel and the steam car. Location...Knotts Berry Farm, California.

Jim writes:

Bill Marsh and I were there the weekend before, and I

know what happened. The accident was directly the result of Wayne's

stubbornness and probably his ignorance of how to use propane tanks.

Described as a chain of events.

Wayne had a huge propane tank in the back of his garage property to

fire his heat treating furnace.

His Stanley used kerosene for the main burner; but he had a long

small diameter propane tank in the floor of the tonneau for the pilot

light. The tank was up against the back of the front seat and thus

right over the cylinders.

Wayne filled this tank from his big one; but not the right way, I saw

this happen, I watched as he did this. He inverted the propane tank

and filled it until a solid stream of liquid propane came out of the

vent on the pilot tank. THIS is his big mistake. That vent valve has

a tube inside the tank that goes down and provides about a 20% gas

volume at the top of the tank when it is used in the proper way with

the valves on top. It starts spitting liquid propane when the level

comes up to the bottom of this tube. Then you are supposed to stop

filling. The void is to take care of liquid propane expanding in hot

weather.

We went out in the Stanley and I remarked to Wayne that I smelled

propane in the rear seat of the car, a lot of it. I opened one rear

door to try to let the cloud of propane out of the car after we got

back.

Wayne got mad and told me that he damn well knew how to use propane

and not to mention it again.

When we were about to leave, I told him: "Wayne, that pilot tank is

venting raw propane out the safety valve because you overfilled it

and this was very dangerous. Fran Duveneck and I also use propane for

out pilots; but we don't deliberately overfill the tank like you

do." He didn't want to hear this for sure and got quite mad that I

brought this up again. I told him: "Wayne, this is going to cause an

accident, so think about that." Then we left.

At Knott's Berry Farm, it was a very hot day and the parade was just

creeping along, so there was not even a breeze to dissipate the

propane from the tonneau. Not only a hot day; but remember the tank

was right over the hot Stanley cylinders.

The tank vented again and filled the tonneau with propane. Mrs. Bill

Schutz and her two children were in the back seat. She lit a

cigarette and the propane in the tonneau blew up. The Nuttings were

killed from their burns, Mrs. Schutz was very badly burned and the

kids less so. I was told that she could not be seen in public until a

lot of skin grafts and other reconstructive surgery was done.

Bill Schutz sued the Nutting estate for a lot of money and that is

how he got into the vintage car business, from the payment by the

insurance company.

When we got home, both Fran and I dumped our propane pilot tanks and

went back to using white gas.

On the several Steam Car Tours in Idaho and Colorado, only the hand

torch to warm up the pilot light was permitted. Any car using propane

for main or pilot fuel was denied entry to the tours, as you should

remember.

There was also a propane explosion on one of the London to Brighton

runs. The car was a 1904 White, which has the gas tank under the

floor right next to the steam generator and burner.

The idiot replaced it with a propane tank and, of all things

possible, used a rubber hose to run the main burner at full tank

pressure, about 250 psi. The hose froze up and broke and the car was

enveloped in a ball of flame. The driver and passenger were not

seriously burned.

A friend of mine was only two cars down line when this happened. He

said that people ran in panic and several fell down and got badly

skinned up.

I was asked to and provided a report to the Veteran Car Club on this

by a friend of mine who was then the dating chairman. Why this

happened, propane tank next to the steam generator and rubber hose. I

recommended that the owner be banned from any club event until he put

the White back as it was made. This happened.

As far as I am concerned, any steam car that uses propane for either

the pilot light or the main burner, should not be allowed on any tour

or even in the parking lot. Hand torches are OK, not much else you

can use.

Anyone who wants to use propane in any steam car is an idiot. There

is no where the BTUs per gallon compared to gasoline of kerosene and

it is just plain dangerous to use.

If they can't figure out how to burn liquid fuel, then take up

another hobby.

Hope this helps.

Regards

Jim

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Re: Propane and the Steam car

Posted by: Tim Senior (IP Logged)

Date: May 22, 2008 06:40AM

Propane is a perfectly safe fuel if properly installed using commercial fittings, valves, metal pipes, etc. Keep the replaceable gas bottle and regulator at the other end fo the car to the boiler and away from the exhaust. Always turn it off (at the cylinder) when not in use.

Propane has been used in boats and caravans for over fifty years and I'm sure if it was that dangerous it would have been banned by now. I do appreciate that accidents happen but with intelligent use they can be avoided.

I do agree that I must be an idiot, after all I do have two steam cars.

Are all the users of LPG fuelled vehicles idiots as well or does it just apply to us steam car drivers?

Regards Tim Senior

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Re: Propane and the Steam car

Posted by: Mark Drake (IP Logged)

Date: May 22, 2008 07:50AM

Jim & All,

I feel that I may, in part, have catalyzed the recent dialogue on the Stanleysteamers website forum. If anyone wishes to read my post placed on 21st May they can find it there. I’m sorry if I caused offence, it most certainly was not my intention.

Jim, thank you for the detailed description - I cannot express how truly shaken I am to hear of the details of the terrible accident which took place with the Nuttings. After your description, I can clearly see how a poor installation, and possibly lack of understanding of handling propane (thermal expansion, poor choice of position etc.) conspired to give fatal results. Similarly the installation in the 1904 White sounds most ill considered, also with disastrous consequences.

The intention of my previous post was to share my experiences of using propane in a number of different applications – Steam boats, LPG conversion to a car, my pilot conversion on my 735. All of my experiences have been positive, and all the installations have been professionally and carefully executed; with well considered professional advice taken at every stage and only certified materials and fittings used; I certainly would not attempt to refill the cylinders myself.

These are clearly not the actions of an ‘idiot’.

However - fortunately I made no permanent changes to my car for my propane pilot installation, which can be removed in about 10 minutes. The original liquid pilot fuel installation is completely unaffected and can be reconnected in about the same time. (Having professionally designed gas turbine combustion chambers, I do know how to burn liquid fuels)

I respect that if propane in steam car use is banned, then so be it – I’m happy either way.

Regards,

Mark

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Re: Propane and the Steam car

Posted by: James D. Crank (IP Logged)

Date: May 22, 2008 11:34AM

Mark,

As with anything connected to steamers, one simply has to use proper procedures all along the line. No offense at all.

Approved fittings and professional guidance with propane installations is only being smart.

Wayne did not fill his pilot tank properly and the safety valve did just what it was supposed to do, vent with over pressure. It was indeed a poor installation, the tank should have been on the rear of the car, or hidden in a tool box. Plus, I wish Wayne had listened to us; but he was very stubborn.

The newspaper photograph was horrifying, a huge ball of flame enveloping the entire car. Only the tiny arc at the bottoms of the tires could be seen, the rest was fire. It was a miracle anyone survived at all.

Indeed propane is used all over the place; but accidents do happen.

On a yacht cruise from San Francisco down to Santa Barbara, as we rounded the point, a large yacht in the harbor simply blew up, nothing but toothpicks. The Coast Guard later said the the propane stove in the galley had leaking plumbing and filled the bilge with gas. When the owner turned on the bilge blowers, the yacht went up.

Personally, I think steamers should be restored and operated as they originally did. My 1910 White ran with the original system all its life and after some 2,000+ miles it still used the original pilot with good success.

Jim

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Re: Propane and the Steam car

Posted by: Kelly (IP Logged)

Date: June 22, 2008 08:04PM

Another data point -

I've just returned from a US steam car tour; 35 cars attended. At least 2 use propane for their pilots. One uses a regulator and feeds the propane into the fuel fitting of a Stanley pilot. The other uses a modified Bernz-O-Matic torch tip. Both mount the tank on the running board in a ventilated enclosure. The first car drives extensively on steam tours and brass (Edwardian?) tours. Neither owner has encountered discussion by tour organizers of their choice of pilot fuel.

Kelly Williams

Mount Joy, PA

[Matt Harwood]

I've seen plenty of carburetors go up violently when overfed a shot of nitrous...