1920 Cole V-8 Coupe

[swhowell]

This weekend I came across what I believe to be a very rare car. It is said to be a 1920 Cole with a V-8 engine. It has a two passenger coupe body and appears to be very complete and in good condition. Does anybody out there have any information on these cars? I found very little information on the web. Thanks Seaton

[nickelroadster]

Seaton,

Coles were early competitors of Cadillacs that were made in Indianapolis using a Northway (subsidiary of GM)manufactured v8 engine. Real nice cars and they don't seem to be overly pricey. Sometime in late 2006 or 2007 I believe the Horseless Carriage Gazette ran a nice article on them. I suggest you go to their website and look at them.

[Rusty_OToole]

There is a very good article on a 1919 Cole restoration in the July 2007 Hemmings Classic Car magazine, this is issue #34.

They say there are 70 Coles known out of some 40,000 built. They used a Northway engine. Northway also built Cadillac engines but there are significant differences. The Cole has removable cylinder heads, the Caddy doesn't. And, the Cole engine is larger and more powerful. 350 cu in/80HP vs. 315cu in/70HP.

It is a very rare, interesting early luxury car. Now unknown, but at one time a worthy competitor to Cadillac and Packard.

They estimate the value of a Cole to be from $4000 to $30,000.

I knew I had the article around here someplace. It just took me a while to find it.

[Guest Tarheel]

Seaton, is this car by chance located between Washington,NC and Greenville,NC on HYW 264 ?

Here are two links I found recently after seeing a Cole on a trailer For Sale by the roadside.

http://www.earlyaviators.com/ecolejj.htm

http://clubs.hemmings.com/frameset.cfm?club=colemcc

[Guest proscriptus]

That HCC article is more-or-less line

http://www.hemmings.com/hcc/stories/2007/07/01/hmn_feature13.html

[Mark Shaw]

My reference shows the 1920 Cole Aero 8 was a 127" wheel base car with 80 HP and 9 body styles. The only coup listed is a Sportcoupe.

[Ivan Saxton]

First two series of Cadillac V8, 51 of 1915 and 53 of 1916 were fixed head engines. The detacheable head blocks after that until 1924 were apparently interchangeable on the earlier engines. In 1972 I saw a 1917 number engine in Queensland with one block of each type on it. (obviously not original.)

Ivan Saxton

[Guest Graham Clayton]

One of the distinctive features of Cole cars of the 1920's were the unusual model names, such as:

• Tourosine
  
• Sportosine
  
• Sportsedan
  
• Brouette
  
• Tuxedo Roadster
  
• Aero-Volante
  

[Guest Magoo]

The Cole was a fine car... the Cadillac of assembled automobiles, as it were. There is one on display in the Auburn Cord Duesenberg Museum, if I'm not mistaken. Indianapolis-built, as mentioned earlier. Would love to see photos of the 1920 Coupe, sounds intriguing. Early closed cars invariably are.

[Guest cben09]

In 1949-50,,,on Rt 2A in Acton Mass was a 1919 [or abouts] was a 7pass Cole gigantic Sedan

I cant recall if it had a division,,All original needing paint badly,,The owner Glenn Gould was asking I think $300,,[Glenn later AACA senior judge],,,I wonder all these years if it survived??

A car like that wasnt worth much,,esp if it needed something,,

Was called BOUC,,,,big old used car,,A Murphy 1931 Lincoln,was looking for a home at $400,,

next town over,,,yes it was a disapearing top style,,

I bought a 29Packard w/4wheel brakes,,,,Cheers,,Ben

[harris speedster]

Guys, I find this thread very interesting >>>>>>>Didn't a company by the name of Hall-Scott make a V-8 engine in the US first? Do believe it tied into airplanes also. >>>>>> Didn't the first >> cadilac >> V-8 engine come from a firm in the UK which dis-mantled and studied a Dedion V-8 engine in Europe.>>>> Then came back to the US and designed and built cadilacs V-8 engine ???? >>>> truly need to know who was first for histotical research.>> I am gathering from the posts here>>> that Cole had a V-8 in 1919>> is that correct ?? >>>> Didn't the cadilac engine have articulating rods which one hinged off of the other ??? Please help me here>>>> as I truly need to get this historically correct. >>> thanks, >> John

[CarlLaFong]

Please lose the arrows. It is distracting, to the max, and makes the post ponderous to read and decipher.

[harris speedster]

Please lose the arrows. It is distracting, to the max, and makes the post ponderous to read and decipher.

58 mustang, for some reason while posting, the site will not let me go/drop to the next line, sorry that it bothered you, just trying to do some significant historical work, John Even while writing this quote, it will not let me drop a line ???

[Ivan Saxton]

In regard to Cadillacs, you need to spend a small sum on a good secondhand copy of Maurice Hendry's comprehensive book , Cadillac: Standard of the World. This is not very expensive on the internet. Their conrods through 1927 were " fork and blade", with the bronze bearing locked in the forked rod. Lincoln used fork and blade through their L series V8 into early 1930s, and may have retained that in some early V12s. I have never seen any reference to Cadillac engines being made outside by Northway. Engieering and manufacturing standards were different. You need to read that book. Articulated conrods were used in radial engines, and in the triple bank Napier Lion. Rolls Merlin of WW2 had fork and blade. Hall Scott made engine for one maker in California, and though Harrahs had a survivor, they were probably too big a monster for wide appeal. Hewitt produced a V8 in NY in 1907 approx.; and Rolls Royce made a sedate town car with an underfloor wide angle V8 just earlier, which found little favour.

[Guest Magoo]

The Cadillac V8 was not a copy or derivation of anything. That legend arose in part from a poorly grounded story in Car Life magazine back in the 1960s, and which has unfortunately grown some legs.

The documented truth: As part of its research on V8 engines, the company surveyed the state of the art, a common practice then as now. Cadillac purchased a De Dion V8 at the New York Auto Show and also contracted with Hall-Scott for a V8 engine, which was installed in a Cadillac chassis for testing by Kettering's experimental group. In the development of Cadillac's own V8 engine, these served mainly as examples of what not to do. Except for being V8s, these engines share no significant features. If one can read a drawing, one needn't take my word for any of this. Just compare the engines and one will see they have nothing in common. The chief designer and architect of the Cadillac V8 was D. McCall White.

The V8 engine itself is not an invention, as it is not novel nor unique. It's simply one type of cylinder configuration. There were dozens of V8 engines before DeDion, Hall-Scott, or Cadillac, including Levavasseur, Clement Ader, Renault, Darracq, Rolls-Royce, Harroun, Marmon, Curtiss, et al.

I will join Ivan Saxton in recommending Maurice Hendry's Cadillac: Standard of the World, which includes some historical background on V8 engines pre-Cadillac.

[harris speedster]

Ivan & Magoo, Thank you both for replying ! In doing archival research, as you wrote Magoo, sometimes you research and read things which are unfounded and incorrect, as you stated the article from Car Life in the 1960's did. One has to learn and post questions to learn, from experienced and knowledged individuals, which have read all about a certain subject. Both of You gave me good direction. Some background, as you stated in your post, located in the Cadilac book, may not be enough for me to get the timelines correct. I will research each V-8 engine manufacturer you noted above, which hopefully the articles may bring forth other V-8's built in timeline ! I am supplying my phone number, which I do not normally do, and if you would care to call and spend some further educating me, I would appreciate it. Warm regards, John 217-734-9400

[Guest Graham Clayton]

And, the Cole engine is larger and more powerful. 350 cu in/80HP vs. 315cu in/70HP.

I found a reference in an Australian newspaper to a Cole Aero-Eight setting a new speed record for the trip between Portland, OR and San Francisco, CA in July 1920. The 852 mile distance was covered in 31 hours and 30 minutes, breaking the previous record by over 7 hours. The only mechanical work that the car required was the changing of a spark plug. This record shows that the Cole had some excellent performance and speed.

Coles were imported into Australia at the same time. They were advertised as the "Rolls-Royce of America". Sales must have been very small though.

One final comment about the Cole. Company founder Joseph Cole could see that the writing was on the wall for low-volume companies such as his, so he voluntary ceased production in 1925 and liquidated his assets, rather than let the company go bankrupt and insolvent, which would have lead to large personal losses.

[Tom Martinez]

The man behind the early Cadillac and the first Cadillac V8 was Henry M Leland, "The master of precision™ He gave Cadillac the reputation of Standard Of The World. Henry Leland and his son Wilford went on to found the Lincoln Motor Company. It's no wonder that the first Lincolns had a fork and blade rod design similar to Cadillac. The man was an industrial and mechanical genius, founding two great car companies that survive to this day. Anyone interested in American auto history should study this man.

[smithbrother]

Being an Indianapolis guy, proud to say some of the finest cars of the past were produced here in Indy, and around the state.

My uncle S.Ray Miller had a great collection and museum in Elkhart, In, and was in the process of filling his museum with ONLY cars made in Indiana when he passed.

RM Auction held the sale, October 14th. - 17th. 2004. He was my mother's brother.

I wish you well with the Cole,

Dale in Indy

[nzcarnerd]

Harris Speedster asked about conrods articlulating one off the other. The Hollier V8 from the mid teens had this feature. I have seen inside the remains of an engine. The car was built by Lewis Spring and Axle in Michigan but I don't know who designed or built the engine. There was a restored example in Ireland.

[harris speedster]

Tom Martinez, This is the basics of what I had read, and thought was true. There seems to be opinion in this topic which differs. It is very hard to get all facts, when different writers of history books, write contradicting historical stories. One can only sort through all and compile what is known. The guys that have posted within this topic, all have posted new avenues of study for me, thank you guys !! I will sort through all.

---

nzcarnerd, Thanks for the input on the V-8 built in the teens, I will explore the Hollier engine, and place it in the chronological order for histories sake. Smithbrother, Being you are an Indy guy, the builder of the Speedster I have researched for 25 years, hosted the very first SCCA racing events in Indianapolis. He hosted the events at the Studebaker proving grounds in conjunction with Mr Harold Vance, believe he was the President and owner of Studebaker? We have some neat pictures of Harold and Ben documenting these events. Ben also hosted the Government military base SCCA races in Indiana. To further this, if you jump up to Wisconsin, Ben was a stock holder, participated in design, and is the man, on Road America's history page, throwing the finish line flag with Johnson and Hill going by almost side by side at 130mph. He had a good friend, Harley Earl, bring some concept cars to this Innagurial race. This special man worked with Wacky Arnolt & Jim Kimberly to build the SCCA in infant years to the National SCCA as we know it today, all hung together and Wikipedia acknowledges and states that in infant years, it was the Chicago region which was responsible. We are working on gaining a copy of an early film, with Kimberly, Ben and David Biggs driving around the Road America track before it was paved, shaking her down !! There is much more to the racing side of this man & Kimberly like being in the first edition of Sports Illustrated for their very first racing story, Ben at the Glen, in Cuba, Bahama's, California golden gate races, Ohio, Michigan and sooooo many more, right down to them being Pres and V president of the SCCA, him and Kimberly being given special wallet sized metal cards for lifetime admittance to any SCCA event, the only ones we are aware of !! The only reason I have added the above, is to let everyone know that I am serious in getting time lined chronological order of V-8 engines. Bens Special exotic supercar, the size of an AC Cobra, had a twin cam, twin ignition, dual carb V-8 which weighed in at 160 lbs and perhaps was the first V-8 of this nature? In historical research and work, I want to set the record straight on std V-8 engines through the years which build up to the engine which powered Ben's special creation in time. I hope everybody sunderstands why it is so important to me, and why I am picking everybody's brain on V-8 engine History ! Thank you guys, BTW, we did not build this very special automobile with 15 firsts, we only report what we have found documents and pictures of, we are only the caretakers of this man and machine, which one day will no longer be obscure in Automobile racing books and design History. One of the History Channel shows will air a few minutes of the Speedster in the future, as they were here for 7 hours filming. About 1/5th of what we have has been made public. Again, thank you guys for your continued posts in assisting and setting history straight !!!!!!!!!!!!! Warm Regards, John

[Ivan Saxton]

I have not re-checked my books yet because I have other important priorities right now. For twin cam V8s you need to check Griffith Borgeson's book The Classic Twin Cam Engine, and Mark Dees' The Miller Dynasty for the V8 in the four wheel drive racing cars of the 1930s, and the V8 Novis. Apart from the postwar Spanish Pegaso of Wilfredo Rickart , V8 twincams abound in F1 GP racing, including the past F1 champion Repco Brabham engine which used an American cast aluminium stock block. Maserati made them, Coventy Climax, and they have been built until what is current or recent past.

[harris speedster]

Ivan, Thanks for the reply. The engine was built between 1931-1932, by a gentleman named Harold Swindler in Ohio. This is a street exotic car, not a race car. The Harris Speedster logged on over 10,000 miles on the street. If I were to say that it was a track race car or a land speed racer, which it was not either, then I would never make the statement I said above. That is what research is all about, as you and most others herein realize. Even though we have some very rare projector film of the Speedster on an old boardwalk race track, it is not a race car, but it is neat that Ben's special creation can be entered into 2 different classes at Invitational showings, at least that is what A senior class judge from Pebble told me. So my historical work and statements are based entirely on other street driven automobiles built by manufactures in the era and from around the world. Ben was highly involved in AAA racing as an official and as a racer before he and his friends seen that it was doomed and began their work on Nationalizing the SCCA. Another one of his good friends was Wilbur Shaw. Smithbrother, did your Uncle Ray have an early race Maserati, or a prewar blown Bugatti ordered new by Malcomb Campbell in his collection, if so, we have projector film of those race cars and about 75 more. In closing, it is street cars that we are researching and desire knowledge and historical fact on Warm regards, John

[Guest cben09]

Early V-8

H,H,Buffum in Abbington Ma Model H I think,,1905 was a not too large v-8,,

small production,,He concentrated on improvement and change,,

He also made a flat 4 in line,,ca, 1895,,,A opposed flat 4 in 1901 [prod' batch of 18]

A flat opposed 8cyl for racing,,called the Grayhound,,1904,planed to enter the Gordon Bennett,,

And in 1907 a v-12,,,small boat engine probably at Laconia New Hampshire

He favored the foundry at Laconia,for some time,,

One of the Buffum family has done extinsive research on the cars,,,info at Dyer Memorial Library in Abbington Ma,,Think he spent a couple of months on that,,He ran a machine shop

making shoe sewing machines,,and invented the nail gun,,MANY multi ++ page patents,,

French Durracq [sp? ],,1905and 06 at Daytona,,1500 cid push rod intakes

Part of the car has been found,,there are 2-3 or more vids on U/tube,,yes inches not cc

Victor Hemry and Fred Mariott became competing friends,,in 06

The Northway engine was said to have been built in a brick building in Natick Mass,,

Building still standing now National Guard armory,,,Not sure of years,,

Watch for any possible connection between Northway and Pierless V-8 engines

Watch for any crossover from air-ship engines,,,some of those are amazing,,

All this from memory,,so check details,,,but its a clue to the past,,Cheers,,Ben

[harris speedster]

cben09, Thank you for what appears to be the earliest of all V-8 engines ever built. Timeline is very important, and as Magoo pointed out in this topic, even car and Driver wrote incorrectly. I will research H.H. Buffman and the engines he built. History as written usually comes from one point of view, and often is wrong, OR, should I say, until the Fat Lady Sings, it is never over. Perhaps with what is being gathered here, the history and timelines of those individuals, or car companies, which did build V-8 engines, can finally be set straight in History books forever. Who would have actually thought, that one of the most common engines in the world, had no origins until now at AACA ?? Hopefully with what is being gathered here, I can correct my own writing, and then continue on to who built the first twin cam, twin ignition, dual carb V-8 for a street manufactured automobile ! Warm regards , John

[john2dameron]

In the early 1980's I met a Mr.Ed Cole from the Grundy, VA area that would bring a 1918 Cole V-8 roadster to a show at Fairlea, WV sponsored by the Greenbrier Valley Chapter of the AACA. I think some research told me that Cole introduced a V-8 in 1915 soon after Cadillac introduced theirs. Buried away too deeply I have a photo of the car and one of the engine. Perhaps I should attempt to dig the album out. It is one of the first two albums I compiled of antique car photos.

[harris speedster]

john2dameron, Thank you for the post !!! If at all possible, please either paste it in the topic here, or send me a copy, sure would appreciate it !! It is so hard to research all I have to research on the Speedster, that it truly has become overwhelming. About 2 years ago, and out of the blue, the Harris family members sent me over 100 pages in one fail swoop. A little after that, a fine gentleman from the ACD museum sent me a single page letter between Gordon and Ben, which also needed research in 6 different ways. The Harris family paperwork and 3 projector films and a un-opened or developed roll of film in an old yellow/green metal Kodak container, brought forth what we truly believe is Marylin Monroe in the speedster, Preston Tucker, a letter to president Nixon, info on a Brigider General at the pentagon, 5 more states Ben worked on to bring into the national SCCA he and others were working on>>> and much more. It stopped my writing at Autopuzzles and elsewhere. About 4 months ago, I was sent notification that a 1937 Russian magazine surfaced by a Historian at autopuzzles, I have it now, displayed and talked about Ben and his creation, I was also informed it further made world news via England and Germany in Magazines. The above is still a pittance. So please, when you do get the time, and if you do locate it, either paste it here, or send me a copy. Thank you sooooo much, warm regards, John

[john2dameron]

John, I will try to dig the album out with the Cole photos in it. It will be simpler for me to send them to you in an email than to post them here because I don't understand all the ins and outs of posting here. I have your email address from the email you sent. I know you have to reduce the size of the photos to post them here and then when I post them at a small number of kb's the image will not enlarge back up to where it is a decent size. For that reason, in reference to the email you sent to me, post a request here for someone to post your documents here and I am sure you will get an answer.

[harris speedster]

john2dameron, John, you made me smile, as the email I sent you explains that I myself have the same issues in cutting and pasting pictures on a site. In some recent work for a program, I was in luck that my son was on summer break from college, he did the resizing which they wanted done. Soooo, I do not feel like the Lone Stranger>>> HA !!! Is there anybody following this topic, that could take their time and post some pictures for us? My email address is shown in a post above, if you can help, just email me and I will return some pictures for posting via your email address. Thank you, John

[Guest Graham Clayton]

Here is a nice video of a 1921 Cole Aero-Eight tourer - the V8 sounds great!

<iframe src="//www.youtube.com/embed/HvmTKInJWJI" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="560"></iframe>

[harris speedster]

Mr Graham Clayton, What a wonderful film you dug out and posted for all to see herein AACA. If Mr Cole were still alive, I am sure he would be honored !! When the history does get straight for the beginnings of V-8 engines, I would actually like to include this video in the writings, if you believe that would be OK? I received a phone call from Cben09, what a walk through history for V-8 engines & a delightful gentleman, it may end up bringing forth a picture of a V-8 from 1905 !!! It is still hard to believe, that with all of the articles on V-8 through the many many decades, that the beginning's and origins of the V-8 engine has never been fully documented !!!! Regards, John

Edited September 11, 2013 by harris speedster (see edit history)

[dei]

John,

Here is a picture of what I believe is a 1915 Cole as evidenced by the date on the license plate. I took this at the Old Car Festival September 8, 2013 held at Greenfield Village, Dearborn, Michigan. Sadly the Show data card was not in the windshield and did not see your post till now so did not speak with the owner who I believe was sitting in the back seat with someone. If what I read is correct, would this be one of the V8 cars?

[john2dameron]

Standard Catalog states that Cole introduced their V-8 in 1915 but they show only 4's and 6's produced in 1915 and only V-8's produced from 1916 to 1925. I have 2 photos I dug out of a 1918 Cole V-8 Roadster and the V-8 engine taken about 1980. I reduced them down to 345 kb's. Would some one like to have me email the photos to them to post here or tell me exactly what I need to do to post them. I know there are serious limitations on the number of bytes allowed in a photo posted here but when I try to meet those limitations I come up with a miniature photo too small to view and it won't enlarge. The photos are in a Jpeg format.

[Guest Magoo]

John,

Here is a picture of what I believe is a 1915 Cole as evidenced by the date on the license plate. I took this at the Old Car Festival September 8, 2013 held at Greenfield Village, Dearborn, Michigan. Sadly the Show data card was not in the windshield and did not see your post till now so did not speak with the owner who I believe was sitting in the back seat with someone. If what I read is correct, would this be one of the V8 cars?

[ATTACH=CONFIG]213413[/ATTACH]

1914 Cole 4-40 Touring, powered by a 4-cylinder, 40 hp Northway engine. Owner Randy Mason. Photo below taken at same show last Saturday, Sept. 7.

[dei]

Thanks Magoo for the clarification. It was an assumption based on the plate date (and we all know what that means). A great looking Touring just the same.

Not to hijack this thread, wasn't it a great weekend? Hoping to attend next year with my Whippet which I happened to see and meet the owner of another one.

Now....

back to COLE's.

[harris speedster]

Magoo, Everything is up in the air at this time. We have RR maybe around 1905, Buffman maybe 1904, RR maybe around 1905, Cole around 1915 and more. The main problem is """ having""" true old archival docs posted, old pictures or patents posted. Cben pointed out the hardcore importance of Patents to me in phone conversation. Please remember, that right now we are no different than the magazine writers and book writers which have gotten it all wrong over the decades. No docs, no pics, no archival material, still shooting blanks. >> Besides the later cadilac v-8 engines, and the wonderful video of the Cole V-8 posted, Cole V-8 of 1916?, we are still far away at AACA in getting it correct. Hopefully we can, time will tell. On a different bright note today and involving other archival research, I received a call out of the blue from Barbara Buerhig, Gordons daughter. She has found more on Ben in Gordon's private diary, and the location of a last car Ben built, which neither family is for sure if Ben gave it to Gordon or sold it to him. Regardless it still remains with the family and has apparently been stored away for many decades. Gordon really liked it, and furthermore kept it until his death. Should get a copy of his diary entry, for true documentation between Gordon & Ben, >> as we are trying to accomplish on the V-8 engines, John

[Ivan Saxton]

Early flat-plane crankshaft V8susually experienced one or more vibration periods within their usual range of rpm: This became an annoyance with heavier cars with enclosed bodies which may have resonated more than open bodies. Obviously Lelands experienced this before they left Cadillac: By designing their own V8 Lincoln with the included angle between nthe the cylinder blocks narrowed from 90 degrees to 60, the uneven firing reduced that vibration.

In the early 1960s, in a back corner of Hughes brothers' wrecking yard in the Melbourne suburb of Coburg, was the floor base of a WW1 era French army tank with the air-cooled Renault V8 still attached. The engine looked untidy and was no interest to me; but Arthur Lang bought it and dragged it home. I have no idea what became of it. It may likely have been post-war.

A few years later I saved from a pile of conrod in Marwood Mckenzie's wrecking business in Geelong a set of conrods with pistons from an early V8. They were carefully machined and finished. I have always challenged knowledgable people to tell what they could determine about the engine they belonged to. The pistons were domed cast iron, emu diameter,which is just under 4"diameter. (I always refer to millimetres as "ethnic measurement units" as political protest that people who were ignorant of practical considerations forced upon us the metric system in contempt of the basic practical rule that you should measure with units that bear a sensible relationship to what you are measuring.) There were 3 plain cast iron rings per piston, about 1/4 inch wide with 45 degree end cut. Piston pin is 11/16" diameter, and cranlpin 1.750"with big ends 40 emu wide, radiused on one side only for side-by-side rods and staggered banks. Thecentre to centre length between bearings is 11 inches, which probably suggests stroke of about 5 inches. The big end cap studs, threaded into the rod and riveted to lock them, are 7/16 British Standard Fine thread. It would have been quite a large V8, and the only possible match I have been able to recognise is a larger English Adams car. They seem to have made several different V8s 1905 to 1909 about. Typical cars they built were four cylinder, and one of those survives , having been recovered and restored in the Veteran Car club by the grandson of the original owner. Maybe someone was an agent and importer for Adams at Geelong, possibly even one of the woolbrokers. There were large holdings and wealth in the grazing areas west of Geelong. Your list of early V8s may become as long as a piece of string, John.

[harris speedster]

Early flat-plane crankshaft V8susually experienced one or more vibration periods within their usual range of rpm: This became an annoyance with heavier cars with enclosed bodies which may have resonated more than open bodies. Obviously Lelands experienced this before they left Cadillac: By designing their own V8 Lincoln with the included angle between nthe the cylinder blocks narrowed from 90 degrees to 60, the uneven firing reduced that vibration.

In the early 1960s, in a back corner of Hughes brothers' wrecking yard in the Melbourne suburb of Coburg, was the floor base of a WW1 era French army tank with the air-cooled Renault V8 still attached. The engine looked untidy and was no interest to me; but Arthur Lang bought it and dragged it home. I have no idea what became of it. It may likely have been post-war.

A few years later I saved from a pile of conrod in Marwood Mckenzie's wrecking business in Geelong a set of conrods with pistons from an early V8. They were carefully machined and finished. I have always challenged knowledgable people to tell what they could determine about the engine they belonged to. The pistons were domed cast iron, emu diameter,which is just under 4"diameter. (I always refer to millimetres as "ethnic measurement units" as political protest that people who were ignorant of practical considerations forced upon us the metric system in contempt of the basic practical rule that you should measure with units that bear a sensible relationship to what you are measuring.) There were 3 plain cast iron rings per piston, about 1/4 inch wide with 45 degree end cut. Piston pin is 11/16" diameter, and cranlpin 1.750"with big ends 40 emu wide, radiused on one side only for side-by-side rods and staggered banks. Thecentre to centre length between bearings is 11 inches, which probably suggests stroke of about 5 inches. The big end cap studs, threaded into the rod and riveted to lock them, are 7/16 British Standard Fine thread. It would have been quite a large V8, and the only possible match I have been able to recognise is a larger English Adams car. They seem to have made several different V8s 1905 to 1909 about. Typical cars they built were four cylinder, and one of those survives , having been recovered and restored in the Veteran Car club by the grandson of the original owner. Maybe someone was an agent and importer for Adams at Geelong, possibly even one of the woolbrokers. There were large holdings and wealth in the grazing areas west of Geelong. Your list of early V8s may become as long as a piece of string, John.

>>> Ivan, Great write up and History on The Adams V-8. Your first hand knowledge, experience and explicit writing on the 1905- 1909 Renault engine is unsurpassed by anyone. >> Perhaps we might want to ask one of the "moderators" at AACA to cut and paste, for historical value; the military, airplane and other V-8 engines in a chronological order for all to see ????? >> What we truly need to know, was the Adams V-8 ever in a street driven automobile !!! Pictures are needed also, or we will fall back to the magazine writers and others which wrote V-8 history as we know it, but never backed it up with pictures. >> I know it is very time consuming, but again, we have initiated, and hopefully we will " get Ur Dun" for one of the most used engines in automobile history !!!! >> I am sure, that when authors and writers compile new books >they will reference "our" library herein AACA, kind of cool for a group of great guys!!!!! >>John

[harris speedster]

Guys, Need some help !! Johndameron sent me some pics via my home email. It is a real nice clean picture of a 1918 Cole V-8, which needs to be pasted in. >> He as I, are not good at cutting/pasting pics, but can email them. >> Can someone volunteer to post them in this topic? >> If so, please just email me at EMAIL="motorcarinvestments@gmail.com" >> I will forward them to you with sincere appreciation. >> In the future, and if it is OK, perhaps other's which do not navigate well but can contribute to the historical work here, Can forward their pics to you for posting? Anybody ??? >>John

Edited September 12, 2013 by harris speedster
correction (see edit history)

[john2dameron]

John, I don't know what caused the discrepancy but the photos I sent to you are of a 1918 Cole Roadster and include a clear photo of the V-8 engine.