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What's With Hydrogen?


Twitch

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9 bucks a gallon would be worth it to drive in luxury! But, seriously, what someone needs to figure out, is how to adapt CURRENT vehicles on the road and this means, any vehicle from 1905-2008 into a alt. fuel vehicle with some kind of minor modification. Because, as it is, families are not able to make ends meet, and they cannot afford a hybrid wheras they can afford a 10-15 yr. old car, also, there are not any good SUV hybrids which make a big difference. Because people need to haul stuff. The market might be saturated in 30-40 years with hybrids. The crazy thing is that my dad's avalanche has Flex Fuel, and yet we have never seen a corn gas station! Also, it wont be useful, until you can make a hybrid 18 wheeler! The influx of 200 million barrels a day or whatever from the Saudi's will run the price down. It happened in 1984 when we had a similiar situation, and in 1985 Oil crashed and we had low prices for 20 years.

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Guest Skyking

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1948Lincoln</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> It happened in 1984 when we had a similiar situation, and in 1985 Oil crashed and we had low prices for 20 years. </div></div>

Smoke & mirrors my friend...........

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Guest John Chapman

Dave,

Concur with your Civic GX comments with the following considerations...

While other areas vary widely, CNG is readily available here, although not on every street corner.

The home compressor recharge time is comparable to similar plug in electric recharge times.

Both of these limitations point out the value and flexibility of a hybrid, despite the increased cost.

JMC

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Guest John Chapman

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rusty_OToole</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My expectation was that they would be half as good as the Greenies and Naderites claimed ... </div></div>

Therein are the seeds of your disappointment. The pontifications of the environmental anarchists and the 'Lawyers' disciples are rich with exaggeration and deception.

JMC

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Therein are the seeds of your disappointment. The pontifications of the environmental anarchists and the 'Lawyers' disciples are rich with exaggeration and deception. </div></div>

...and easily confused with and/or lumped in with real data from accurate sources. Discriminating among people is bad, but among information it's a dire neccesity.

The person who tells you that a 25-50% reduction in fuel consumption is possible with a hybrid system isn't the same person who tells you that all cars should be banned from city streets. Likewise the person who tells you it'll take too long to make up the cost difference between a hybrid and non-hybrid SUV isn't the same person who advocates drilling every square inch of the earth, polar bears be damned.

I've never once thought that my Prius would do any better or worse than it has done over the last 3 years, either before I bought it or after. It took work to find the information to come to those conclusions and be so imformed prior to purchase. If I had trusted the information cherry-picked for me by <span style="font-style: italic">Fox News</span>'s editors (good and bad), or cherry-picked for me by <span style="font-style: italic">Mother Jones Magazine</span> (good and bad), I'd have had a very different impression.

The reality is they are the best short-term solution to personal transportation, and are a certain component of <span style="text-decoration: underline">any</span> long-term one.

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Well pardon me all to heck. I remember when electric cars were being touted as the solution to pollution (they aren't) and the solution to the energy shortage (they aren't that either).

Then the car companies actually built some. The next step was to promote the hybrid as having the advantages of the electric (high mileage) without the disadvantages.

Now it turns out they are no better than a conventional car.

It's the same old bushwa from the same old gang.

Now they are on about global warming. No one ever mentions that the climate today is colder than it was 1000 years ago.

True. In 1000 AD Vikings were farming on Greenland and picking grapes in Newfoundland.

There are a lot of reasons for the climate to change. Maybe 5% of it is man made, and the Kyoto Accord if fully implemented, might eliminate 3% of that. So, we are looking at destroying our standard of living to reduce temperatures a fraction of 1 degree.

Remember you read it here first.

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Look, we could put controls on what cars we drive, and maybe even ban cars altogether, but it would make NO difference! There is China and India out there, almost one third of the worlds population! And have you seen their skyline lately?! They do not have smog checks, etc.

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Smoke and mirrors? How? The same thing happened and it will happen again! Even Davemoon said a few posts back that the oil crashed in the mid 80's. The Saudis did the same thing, then Reagan deregulated the market. And instead of gas lines like the late 70's early 80's and high prices (as high as now not dollar amount but, if inflation is taken into acct). We had 20 years of good prices and easy access to fuel.

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Now it turns out they are no better than a conventional car.

</div></div>

We've already covered this.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1948Lincoln</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Lets see how the Prius holds up 10 years from now... </div></div>

We've already covered this, too.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No one ever mentions that the climate today is colder than it was 1000 years ago. </div></div>

And this urban myth is simply not true. For instance: "<span style="font-style: italic">The first recorded grapes were grown 2002, when a successful vineyard was established in Gambo, Newfoundland, 48°50'N.</span>, (Vinland page, Wikipedia).

Just like the real information on what a hybrid car is and is not capable of, the real information on climate change is out there. You can investigate the facts or just believe the first thing that makes you comfortable with your other beliefs. It's up to you.

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1948Lincoln</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Smoke and mirrors? How? The same thing happened and it will happen again! Even Davemoon said a few posts back that the oil crashed in the mid 80's. The Saudis did the same thing, then Reagan deregulated the market. And instead of gas lines like the late 70's early 80's and high prices (as high as now not dollar amount but, if inflation is taken into acct). We had 20 years of good prices and easy access to fuel. </div></div>

I said what????

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1948Lincoln</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Look, we could put controls on what cars we drive, and maybe even ban cars altogether, but it would make NO difference! There is China and India out there, almost one third of the worlds population! And have you seen their skyline lately?! They do not have smog checks, etc. </div></div>

Oil Consumption (most recent) by country (2007 data)

Knowledge is power.

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But, the consumption of those countries is going up! And it has no where to go but up! As cars become easier to come by for poorer peoples. Maybe Toyota needs to make a Model 'T' and revolutionize the industry in China, India, and Japan!

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave@Moon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Now it turns out they are no better than a conventional car.

</div></div>

We've already covered this.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1948Lincoln</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Lets see how the Prius holds up 10 years from now... </div></div>

We've already covered this, too.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No one ever mentions that the climate today is colder than it was 1000 years ago. </div></div>

And this urban myth is simply not true. For instance: "<span style="font-style: italic">The first recorded grapes were grown 2002, when a successful vineyard was established in Gambo, Newfoundland, 48°50'N.</span>, (Vinland page, Wikipedia).

Just like the real information on what a hybrid car is and is not capable of, the real information on climate change is out there. You can investigate the facts or just believe the first thing that makes you comfortable with your other beliefs. It's up to you. </div></div>

This "Urban myth" was in the history textbooks I studied at school 40 years ago. I believe it has since been edited out.

Norse sagas describe winters in Vinland as being mild enough that cattle can winter over without stocks of hay or cut feed. And they also describe picking wild grapes in Vinland, that is where the country got its name.

The site of Norse settlement excavated by archaeologists at L'Anse Aux Meadows Newfoundland, establishes the location of Vinland beyond question.

Farley Mowat has discovered a report by a French botanist who described wild grapes growing in Newfoundland in the 17th century.

Most people today never heard of the Little Climactic Optimum from 600 AD to 1300 AD or the Little Ice Age that followed, from 1400 AD to 1850 AD.

Today's so called Global Warming is within the normal range of natural climate change and well within it.

I live in Canada and can tell you that there is no sign of unusually warm weather around here. There was a series of mild winters in the 90s but the last few years the winters have been much the same as when I was a boy in the 50s.

Most of the claims of the global warming alarmists won't stand up to much scrutiny. Al Gore has advised his closest associates that it will be necessary to pick their evidence and exaggerate in order to sell their agenda to the public.

Besides, according to the peak oil alarmists we are already running out of oil. From now on oil consumption will drop like a rock because there just isn't any more of it and in 50 or 100 years there will be none left at all. So what's to worry about?

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1948Lincoln</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You said about the oil crashing in the mid 80's! Back in another one of our discussions about digging in West Texas! </div></div>

I've never heard of "digging in west Texas".

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Guest Skyking

Today's headlines........."ELECTRIC UTILITY SEEKS 21.7% RATE HIKE"

Well we're trying to save gas, now what? This is a plan. They are going to get us one way or the other. I hate to see how many house fires this coming winter...... cry.gif

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Most people today never heard of the Little Climactic Optimum from 600 AD to 1300 AD or the Little Ice Age that followed, from 1400 AD to 1850 AD.

Today's so called Global Warming is within the normal range of natural climate change and well within it.

</div></div>

Pretty much anybody's who's even informally looked at this stuff knows about the Little Climactic Optimum and the Little Ice Age. They'd also know that your statement here on global warming is <span style="text-decoration: underline">totally</span> out of whack with the facts.

I have a Master's Degree in the environmental sciences. I'm more than an informally interested person. That may be why people so misinformed upset me so.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> This "Urban myth" was in the history textbooks I studied at school 40 years ago. I believe it has since been edited out.</div></div>

Guess why.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> So what's to worry about? </div></div>

Man, have you got some reading to do (even if this was supposed to be an ironic statement)! shocked.gif

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Skyking</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Today's headlines........."ELECTRIC UTILITY SEEKS 21.7% RATE HIKE"

Well we're trying to save gas, now what? This is a plan. They are going to get us one way or the other. I hate to see how many house fires this coming winter...... cry.gif </div></div>

Energy conservation is a fact of life now. It a matter of personal subsistence and the National interest, and will be from now on. It isn't just something people do to be politically correct, or because they have an interest in saving cute little fuzzy animals.

<span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-style: italic">That's</span></span> the different world <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-style: italic">I</span></span> was talking about.

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Skyking</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Today's headlines........."ELECTRIC UTILITY SEEKS 21.7% RATE HIKE"

Well we're trying to save gas, now what? This is a plan. They are going to get us one way or the other. I hate to see how many house fires this coming winter...... cry.gif </div></div>

When the electricity rate caps expire on December 31, 2010 rates in Pennsylvania will be rising also.

Some "experts" have said electric rates will increase as much as 50% or more.

Lawmakers in Pennsylvania are looking to ease or eliminate the transition.

Time will tell how this plays out.

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave@Moon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Most people today never heard of the Little Climactic Optimum from 600 AD to 1300 AD or the Little Ice Age that followed, from 1400 AD to 1850 AD.

Today's so called Global Warming is within the normal range of natural climate change and well within it.

</div></div>

Pretty much anybody's who's even informally looked at this stuff knows about the Little Climactic Optimum and the Little Ice Age. They'd also know that your statement here on global warming is <span style="text-decoration: underline">totally</span> out of whack with the facts.

I have a Master's Degree in the environmental sciences. I'm more than an informally interested person. That may be why people so misinformed upset me so.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> This "Urban myth" was in the history textbooks I studied at school 40 years ago. I believe it has since been edited out.</div></div>

Guess why.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> So what's to worry about? </div></div>

Man, have you got some reading to do (even if this was supposed to be an ironic statement)! shocked.gif </div></div>

I don't mind reading and I would like to know the truth.

Are you saying the Norse sagas are bunk, and that they did not settle in Iceland and Greenland, and did not explore Newfoundland? Or that the Little Climactic Optimum and Little Ice Age did not take place?

Or that oil consumption has nothing to do with global warming? And that therefore, the end of oil will not reduce global warming?

Or do you think peak oil is bogus too?

I'm not quite following what you mean.

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So, Dave, what is conservation? I could be conserving more than my neighbor, someone could conserve more than me, etc.? So, what is conserving?

Global Cooling= Funky, hip, disco 70's

Global Warming= The Hot modern 00's

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Guest Skyking

Joe, I think we better keep the Global Warming in the closet. We all know how nasty this could get. grin.gif

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1948Lincoln</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You were talking about all the speculators, 'digging any hole they could' in texas and Alaska in the 1980s! </div></div>

You must have me confused with someone else. There have been a number of threads where indiscriminate drilling was discussed, but I can't recall any thread where Texas was specificaly mentioned.

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