Help needed with 1950 Buick Special Transmission Leak

[Guest ClubHabel]

Hey all. Its my first time posting here (i think, or its been a real long time). Anyway, my transmission on my 1950 Buick Special is leaking. Ive pulled the torque ball assembly, installed the gasket kit, etc and it still leaks. I'm no expert, just learning as I go so any help would be great.

The "kit" came with gaskets and shims & my shop manual wasnt too clear on the exact procedures. I put the gasket between the inner and outer retainer and didnt use any of the paper shims. The also would go in between right? Since she was leaking BAD before I pulled the torque ball assembly I figured I'd want it tight to stop the leak. Maybe I was wrong with the gasket placement and where I thought the shims should go. I gotta figure you want the gasket in between, but it seems that if I took out that gasket, there would be greater pressure there and less chance for leakage. (oh, it leaks when not running) I just started it for the first time last night!

Also, that rubber boot for the torque tube and outer housing, is that supposed to deter fluid from leaking OR is that the main thing to keep fluid from leaking?

That rubber boot, it fits snug around the torque tube and after I turn it "right-side in" it just rests on the outer retainer? Or does it go inside that retainer? My shop manual wasnt clear. It seems that if that rubber boot was "glued" to the outer retainer that fluid wouldnt be able to leak out. However, that doesnt sound like the way transmission fluid should "not leak" out.

Any ideas on what Im missing? I'm gonna try to retighten the bolts for that torque ball assembly area tonight and see if it helps.

I think I put 5 quarts of transmission fluid in and gotta guess that one full quart came out. [if I remember correctly, The shop manual says it should hold 7-8? The roadmaster more] If I release the pressure of that rubber boot against the outer retainer, I gotta assume there's some fluid "hiding in there too".

[Pete O]

The kit should have also included a seal, visible in the picture below (which is of a '56). It's the ring inside the opening at the center of the torque ball flange. The splined collar of the U-joint comes through this seal. Did you also replace the torque ball retainer? It has rubber seals that fit against the torque ball to prevent leaking.

[Guest ClubHabel]

My kit did not. Hmmm. So I'm looking for 2 things right?

1) a seal that's just inside of the torque ball flange, and

2) a torque ball retainer. (What is that?)

My kit only came with gaskets and shims, but what youre talking about sure seems to make sense. I ordered my kit from Bob's Automobilia and the sales representative I talked to made no mention of needing these 2 things. Where can I order them from?

PS - Im not real happy with the idea of having to disconnect the parking brake cable, the rear springs, axle, etc since I've alreay done it once. What a pain that was. But I'll do it to stop that leak.

Thank you.

[Pete O]

The retainer is the silver/gray bowl shaped thing in the picture above that bolts up to the rear of the tranny which holds the the torque ball in place. Bob's Automobilia has the whole kit- part number TBK-486: Retainer, shaft seal, gaskets and shims for cars with Dynaflows. When I did mine, I also changed the propeller shaft splined seal, Bob has that too, part SS-463 and the flange gasget TBF-402. (I also changed the bronze bushing in the torque ball, but that may not have been necessary. You need a press to change it, but I figured since I had it all apart, why not?)

When you put it all together, the service manual shows how to construct a wooden dowel to test the tension with a spring scale to see if there's the right number of shims. Also, it's important to really polish up the surface of the torqe ball so that the rubber seal in the retainer has a smooth surface to seal against.

Dropping the torque tube to do all this is a pain in the rump, but the satisfaction of stopping the leak will be worth it!

[Guest ClubHabel]

Just got off the phone with Bob's Automobilia and they do not think replacing the retainer with the rubber seal will do the trick. Also, my part I have now is not what they'd use/consider as a core so I'd pay $57 for the part and $100 for a core charge.

He's suggesting I try the U-joint and torque ball bushing. I dont know what I'm gonna do. While I'm thinking Im gonna try to retighten and adjust the tension on the torque ball.

[Pete O]

Can you see where the leak is actually coming from? Is the tranny fluid running down the interior of the torque tube and accumulating in the differential? If so, I'd suspect the shaft seal and the splined seal. If you clean up the torque ball, can you see fluid seeping out from the gap between the retainer and the torque ball? If so, I'd suspect the torque ball retainer. The torque ball bushing is the bronze bushing the U Joint output rides in, and unless it is so badly worn that the U Joint is really jiggling around to the point where the seal can't seal, I wouldn't think that is the source of the leak.

[Guest ClubHabel]

Im going to try to take it apart this weekend. I do know that fluid is not running down the torque tube. When I first started (prior to the shim kit) I saw fluid (coming up over and) running down the outer retainer. I have pics on yahoo with a screwdriver pointing to that spot.

This link should get you to all of my photos:

http://autos.ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/buicks/photos/browse/2af4

This link should show you the leak spot in particular:

http://autos.ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/buicks/photos/view/2af4?b=12

This last picture is called TransLeak2. Now that Im looking at it again, the leak is clearly coming from that retainer, but would appreciate your view too.

Another local guy thinks I need the O-ring replacement kit with new spline seal, a spring, and a rubber O-ring spline seal at the end on the U-joint side. Have you heard of this?

[Guest ClubHabel]

Hey, on this pic called drivetrain4:

http://autos.ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/buicks/photos/view/2af4?b=17&m=s&o=0

I see "rubber" something around the edge of the retainer. Is that most likely where the rubber torque boot rested or is that part of the vulcanized rubber?

Thanks.

[Pete O]

Looking at the photo that showed where your leak was coming from, you are definitely leaking between the torque ball and the outer retainer. I posted a copy of your picture with the parts labeled (link below). Inside the outer retainer, there is vulcanized rubber bonded to the circumference, and this seals up against the torque ball. The torque ball needs to be smooth and polished for this to make a good seal. I don't know why Bob's told you that they wouldn't accept your old retainer as a core. It is exactly what they'll send you in it's place.

http://autos.ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/buicks/photos/view/ffb3?b=1

[Pete O]

PS. Here's the splined seal and spring parts that go around the prop shaft inside the torque tube that you asked about. You mentioned you weren't getting tranny fluid in the rear end, so most likely these aren't the source of your leak. But hey, you have it all apart, and these aren't that expensive, so I'd change them if I were doing the job.

http://us.a2.yahoofs.com/groups/g_52855/ffb3/__sr_/a394.jpg?gr4nkKIBViyjRbCg

[old-tank]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Inside the outer retainer, there is vulcanized rubber bonded to the circumference, and this seals up against the torque ball. The torque ball needs to be smooth and polished for this to make a good seal. I don't know why Bob's told you that they wouldn't accept your old retainer as a core. It is exactly what they'll send you in it's place. </div></div>

Not exactly correct. The original outter torque ball retainer was a metal to metal seal using a soft metal that is probably copper. This is where you used various shims and the broom stick routine to get the right tension. Later replacement seals with the rubber vulcanized to the lip served the same purpose, but was different...you cannot vulcanize rubber to an original outter torque ball retainer...it will not work. No shims were needed on the later retainer other than to serve as a gasket. CARS sells an outter torque ball retainer without a core, but it will soon fail because the rubber is not compatible with oil; Fatsco transmission will sell without a core and is a recommended product/vendor.

Willie

[michaelmis]

I know that you are after answers but you might get a bit of a laugh at the page below.

http://buicknet.com/WorkShop/FactoryInfo.htm "They leaked leaving the factory"

I have had two of these cars one standard and one Dynaflow.

I do remember that once the mechanic had solved the problem with the stick shift car, he put a flexible rubber boot around the entire joint. The type used on universal joints.

This outer boot was to keep the joint clean/free of abrasives working into the seal, and to catch any fluid that did leak.

To my knowledge the boot was never taken off, filled up, or caused problems like flooding the diff.

[George50]

I have been wondering about that torque ball outer retainer leak?

Did you seal it up? Let us know how it's coming.

Thanks

George