Dealer rip offs

[Guest imported_Thriller]

5 gallons at possibly $1.50 / gallon profit? $7.50...I'd suggest there are other things to get a lot more concerned over. Unless the dealer also has fuel storage tanks, they had to transport the fuel to your car somehow, right? In the grand scheme of things, it's on the order of 2% of your repair bill extra for the fuel.

Considering what we've heard over the years about how much more expensive it it just to buy the parts that would be required to constitute a car, without consideration for labour to put it together, than to purchase that same car new, that shows the inflated prices for the parts. If simplyconnected is right about the price of the fuel filter, I'd get more excited about that.

You could also consider yourself lucky...in two separate events of foolishness, I've damaged my truck's bumper and the plastic beneath it...that's being repaired today and will cost me about $1400.

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 'Reatta1'</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Simplyconnected,

The gas I keep in a barrel is real regular gas. No ethanol blended in. It is specifically so that I don't put blended fuel into my mower and other small engined yard equipment. I have had that barrel for over a year and it gets treated with stabilizer to keep it from going bad. I just f@#*+d up and let it get rain water standing on the top which seeped through the bungs. Once I get the water purged from it, it will go into the shop where it can't get water on it again. The big challenge now will be to find non blended gas to use in my boat. </div></div>

OMG!!!!

Jim, you're not seriously considering indoor storage of a metal drum of gasoline! This is not a good idea.

I hope <span style="text-decoration: underline">at least</span> you are using a brass bung wrench and have the drums thoroughly grounded to prevent sparking from static electricity when opening them. No matter where they are <span style="font-style: italic">that</span> boom would hurt!

[BUICK RACER]

This dealer stuff, just burns me up! I hate going to the dealer. One of the biggest problems nowadays is there is virtually no real warranty work available, because of the increased quality across the board, and when there is it's not pretty.

In addition, the only experience the customer has with the company that made their vehicle is the dealership, and they have no real connection or responsility for representing the corporation that built it! Hence, the attitude of the customer to buy something else next, perhaps an import, but they have the same problems.

As far as, the older cars out of warranty, that is the only place the dealer can make any money anymore, so the slap it on the little old lady/man/young person that just wants their car fixed so they can go to work or whatever, and don't know to ask the questions, Like "SHOW ME WHAT IS WRONG" or give me my replaced parts so they can actually see the part was replaced by law, they just pay the bill.

In most cases, these folks, are somewhat ok, because their car is fixed, and it was cheaper than buying a new one, but did they get ripped off and didn't know, it all about asking questions, and that's free!

My Mom, put way too much $$ last year into her '95 Riviera with just around 80K, she loves the car, Creampuff, they, the "Chevy" dealler she takes it to, cause the local Buick dealer has been shizter for years, said it wouldn't pass NY inspection without a rack and pinion replacement, over $500, did she get her old parts, no, does the car still have a problem, I think so. She had a nail in the right rear tire at Thanksgiving last year, when we check it when we got home it had 9 Lbs, in it, Alica(my sister) and I put some air in it on Monday, on Wednesday before turkey day, we were going out to pick up the rib roast for dinner on Thanksgiving at 3PM. I backed the car out of the garage before we left, I said I wanted to look at that tire, and spotted the nail, we took it right to the tire store and they ended up selling her 2 new tires, we kept the good one, when I said something about the dealer just down the road, the guys in the tire store just rolled their eyes.

She needs to find an independent good mechanic to work on this car in the future, but all I can tell her is get your old parts for 2 reasons, one I know alot of folks with these cars, and if I can help them before they have a problem would be nice to do that, and so she knows they did the work she paid for!

Here's the worse part, she is afraid to drive the car to FLint in July, because of all this, and doesn't help that premium is over $4, but it still will get close to 30MPG, so it's not that.

My latest dealership issue is with a body shop, my current company car is a 2008 Sierra Crew Cab, 4x4 2500HD, it was hit in the right front bumper by a 2008 Cadillac CTS, also a GM Company Car, by the right front bumper in the GM parking lot, $907 for the truck, the CTS, don't know, new bumper for the truck and paint the fascia on the bumper, this happened on April 30th, I took the truck in on May 5, it's still not fixed. Probably ready, Monday, in the meantime, I'm driving a Colbalt 4 door sport, from the pool car fleet, I did get it to squeal the tires today, enough rant.

[michel88]

I was using a local Chevrolet dealer to service and repair my 89 Chevy 2500 pickup. This incident happened about 5 years ago and caused me to never go back. I had been going there for about 8 years and was reasonably satisfied with them. This truck was my daily driver and even though I am very easy (baby them) on my vehicles, this truck has required an extreme amount of repairs. I won't go into all the repairs but it was many thousands of dollars. One day the interior door handle stopped working. I took the truck in to the dealer to repair it. When I got it back the brake warning light was on. It was not on when I took it in. I returned it and they said they would check it out. After a while they reported back that the truck needed a complete brake job. I told them to check my records in the computer because they had done a complete brake job about a year ago. They checked the computer which verified that. They said that it would not pass inspection so they always recommend a brake job. I was not happy and I told them so. I took the truck back and started to drive home. Each time I stopped the brake pedal seemed mushy and not right. I checked under the hood and they had left the cap of the master cylinder off! I took the truck to a independent repair shop and asked them to check out the brakes, and did not say anything about the dealer. They proved to be honest and said the brakes are fine. From that point on I always take the truck to them for repairs.

[Guest Reatta1]

To answer several comments and questions.

Dave, I worked with liquid hazardous materials for many years and am quite familiar with the necessary precautions to take with indoor storage.

Simplyconnected, I don't know if you noticed the 9 dollar and change discount listed under parts. That was for the fuel filter which brings the cost down to what I could have bought the filter for from several online parts stores. No issue there. The labor is high compared to an independent shop but that is how it is at a dealer shop. The rip off was the gas. Even if they took a can to get it, the card lock station is basically just across the street from them, it's still a cheap, chincy thing to do to a customer. SO, I stand by my statement that I was ripped off on the gas. The purging of the tank was obviously done by pressurizing the tank and siphoning it out the filler neck. They did not bother to clean the dribbles that ran down the body below the fuel filler door. If anything remained after that it was probably pumped out through the line at the point where the filter goes. Just my guess but I'd bet it is accurate. Bottom line, they will not get any more of my business.

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dave, I worked with liquid hazardous materials for many years and am quite familiar with the necessary precautions to take with indoor storage.

</div></div>

Never the less this is a daunting thing to do. If your homeowners' insurance company discovers this you will almost certainly be canceled immediately. To give you some idea what'll be needed to get back in their good graces, here's a link to the Oregon Natl. Guard's indoor storage regulations. Note that the regs call for a dedicated room if you only store over 60 gallons, and that between 10 and 60 gallons you're talking about expensive fire-proof cabinetry and a ban on hazardous activity (especially and specifically welding!). The extreme degree needed to make something like this safe, <span style="text-decoration: underline">especially</span> in an active workshop, would be beyond almost anyone's capacity.

Should you have a problem and this stuff causes a fire or is even just involved, you can be guaranteed that your homeowner's policy will <span style="text-decoration: underline">not</span> apply.

Not only that, but almost any fire code will ban indoor storage of more than 2 gallons of gasoline, and then only in well marked designated containers. If you do have a prooblem and the local fire company needs to come you can expect a stern and expensive set of dealings with them as well.

I never inspected a single industrial facility that stored containerized fuel indoors. None had drums/containers exposed to the elements either, except for some with exposed waste drums which had very short-term storage limitations. I don't think there's a set of circumstances imaginable where storing a drum of gas indoors is a good idea, let alone in a home situation.

You're literally playing with fire.

And I haven't even mentioned the potential chemical exposure from leakage and normal vaporization. If your workshop is part of your main dwelling, this becomes a 24/7 situation. If it is typical in being air conditioned in the summer and heated in the winter, with litle ventilation, you're talking about 24/7/365. Not good!

[Guest Reatta1]

Dave,

Your concern for my situation and well being is appreciated, it really is. And what you point out is excellent information to all on this forum. However, in my case it is only partially applicable. When I said the barrel would be going 'in the shop' I should have also mentioned that my 'shop' is a large pole building with what you would call a 'lean to' on one side. This is a three sided area that is not enclosed and that is where the barrel is going. A little less convenient than sitting where it was between the front doors on the concrete apron. I don't have a barrel cart and it was just easier to drop it there than move it around the corner through the gravel. Also, be assured that I do know what I'm doing around this stuff. I put in 20+ years running a plant where we manufactured inks for rubber stamps, lumber grading, egg and food marking and used various solvents, chemicals and caustic cleaners and degreasers. I was responsible for OSHA compliance for storage, usage and transport of all that. In my many years of experience, from growing up on a farm in North Dakota, to serving in the Navy where I took schooling in aviation mechanics, to my years running the production facility, I've learned quite a bit and the biggest thing I've learned is that all the regulations in the world are useless if someone does something stupid or with lack of common sense. I pride myself in knowing the difference. I don't create situations that could cause a mishap. Where that barrel of gas is going is not enclosed, has no ignition source, seepage or spillage will not be a concern and will still be under enough cover to keep from getting water on the top. Treatment with fuel stabilizer and water remover will do the rest.

Anyway, thanks again for your concern and posting good information for all of us.

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I should have also mentioned that my 'shop' is a large pole building with what you would call a 'lean to' on one side. This is a three sided area that is not enclosed and that is where the barrel is going. </div></div>

That's a lot better! "Shop" to me pictured a cabinet (hopefully) in a workshop inside your home or in a garage, a place where welding/grinding/etc. might occur. Thanks for clearing that up!

[Guest simplyconnected]

Moon is right about hazardous materials. The OEM Paint Dept., wipes bodies down with alcohol. The containers are electrically bonded to ground, and the spent rags are stored in steel drums with solid lids.

'Paint' has a separate building that is explosion proof (the 'paint kitchen', where they store all the colors of paint, and thinners). All spray booths are explosion proof as well.

Gasoline is stored in the outside 'tank farm,' as well as brake fluid, antifreeze, oil, washer fluid, etc.

Where gas is dispensed inside, workers stand on grates as the area is prepared for spills. High-volume blowers, suck air from underneath the vehicle, to outside, all day.

Welding and propane tanks are chained outside, to a thick cement barrier wall.

Did you know your home garage is classified as a 'hazardous location'? Think of all the gas, paint, thinners, lawnmower, weedwhacker, edger, & your CAR! It all sits in a confined space, usually with no ventilation.

Electrical outlets must be four feet above the floor because of fumes.

[Guest Dans 77 Limited]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HurstGN</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> and replace the lower intake manifold gasket. Yup, same one that's in dispute by a class action suit right now

************************************************************

Yea, I got shafted and this dealer is lower than snail slime when it comes to customer satisfaction in my book. If anyone wants to know who it is, it's Bowser Pontiac in Pleasant Hills PA. </div></div>

Dan I need to talk to you. Whats this about a class action on the intake gaskets?!?!? If you remember I had to get them replaced on my Impala when I got it (Ended up driving that prizm for a few weeks)

Secondly the best dealer service Ive found around here so far is Cochran in Robinson. They are the only ones Ill go to.

[NTX5467]

Several comments -----

As Roberta mentioned, GM Warranty work is way down from what it was 7 years ago. The spikes we've seen on particular warranty parts are not as wide nor as high as they were back then as, generally, less vehicles are involved (for whatever reason). It used to take a few years for everything in a particular situation to be replaced, now it takes about 6 months with a few stragglers every so often. As a matter of course, our service advisors check for outstanding "campaigns" on each vehicle that might be affected by them--taking better care of the customer and also generating a little work in a mutually beneficial situation.

What a dealership's parts department does for customer discounts is highly variable. Some do not give their employees very much discount on parts (in some cases, the auto supplies can sell the employee the same part for less money, if they give any additional discounts due to where the employee works, that's at their discretion) whereas others allow employees to purchase parts at "book cost + ". Just as some dealers would rather sell a walk-in customer a car (flaky credit and all) than sell one to one of their own employees at "cost + $500.00, for example, or let a cross-town rival sell it to them instead. Different orientations of the dealer principle or general manager. It used to be that a dealer wanted all of their employees to drive "their" cars (new or used) as it made a good impression on the public . . . now it doesn't seem to matter at all. And, of course, there have been employees (who seemed like they'd be good employees in many respects) get hired, stay around for 6 months or so, purchase a new vehicle, and leave a month later. Some dealers have also put many restrictions on an employee's personal charge accounts with them, many preferring being paid by credit card instead (parts and/or service). Many orientations on both side of the fence.

As for the "fuel charge", I suspect the dealership did have an hourly employee go fetch the fuel at a station across the street or down the block, which means that that employee's pay check would not vary depending upon what they did. Still, it needs to be "covered" somewhere in the cost of doing business. The additional amount (over pump prices) would constitute a "labor charge" for that particular labor operation. "Rip off"? just depends on the way you look at it.

As for what dealers pay from wholesale fuel distributors, the last time I asked, we were paying about 20 cents/gallon less than pump prices. In reality, why should a fuel wholesaler charge a dealership less money (for less total volume) than they'd charge one of their own filling stations? And just as with pump prices, it can vary from load to load. A 20% discount to a dealer would mean a bunch of money . . . if the filling stations are making at least that much per gallon, then THEY are making a whole bunch of money.

As for the items on the repair order, they look pretty decent to me. The nomenclature for the injection cleaner is just a brand name for the particular cleaner package the dealership uses. Some are a one-part item, others have more than one bottle in the kit. They usually require a hookup onto the injection fuel rail for the injector cleaner. There can also be (other parts in the kit) to spray into the throttle body and also one to add to the fuel tank. What they did would depend upon the particular situation of what was used. Some might claim these things are not really needed, but this can depend upon the brand of fuel (and where it was purchased from) as to whether or not they make any real difference. GM does have a list of recommended fuels, if that matters.

Most "water removal additives" will contain a certain amount of alcohol-based items (as alcohol does attract water) to let the moisture be turned into something that will be more combustible than it was. Many used to have some cleaner additives in them too, but with more recent EPA regulations, most of the former "good stuff" is not around any more (like we had 30 years ago).

Other dealership items . . .

The realm of a manufacturer-franchised dealership is somewhat different that that of a private (or chain) repair shop--at least the way I see it. Different expectations and different realities, in many cases.

In writing an estimate, there can be several "lines" involved. If the estimate is made at "the minimum" of what might be required, if any additions are later needed (justifiably, which the customer must approve before any further work is performed), then the customer might get the impression that their vehicle is being held hostage, broken and now torn-down and inoperable so that it HAS to be fixed at a higher price than quoted. "Bad Press" for the dealership if that happens and a customer that won't be back.

If the estimate is written high enough to cover ALL possibilities of what might need to be done (including all parts), it can cause sticker shock for the customer and then "Rip OFF!" orientations are voiced as the customer doesn't think or understand what it's all about (even if a private shop might also recommend the same things, with the repair being done at the private shop as that's where the car is). Unfortunately, some service advisors do not do a good job of explaining these things in language understandable by the customer. Similarly, if the customer pays-out and asks the cashier what was done, all that the cashier can do is read back what the repair order documents by the technician (also writing in "dealer-speak", which is just what the customer asked for defintions of, so that can cause customer frustations too--especially if it's at lunch time and nobody is there to effectively explain what it all might mean--I've seen that happen, too.

Then, if the dealership operatives don't catch something about to happen, which might leave the customer stranded and in need of a tow to a private/chain garage, then the "I don't know why they didn't see that getting ready to fail . . . " dialogue can happen as the private/chain shop owner gives a sales pitch for THEIR place of business (playing to a highly receptive audience).

In many cases, the dealership operatives are supposed to "place their hand on the fender (like on the Nissan commercials?) and see what's getting ready to fail or if everything's fine" with the vehicle . . . or so it seems. Not quite reality, but still it seems to be expected.

If a customer takes the vehicle in for a seemingly minor repair, a technician might look the vehicle over for things which might soon need attention (in our modern society when there are painly FEW service station operatives to do this at EVERY fuel stop!!!), they might generate an estimate of things that can certainly raise the customer's eyebrows and make them wonder how the car even starts anymore. In some cases, this can be accurate and in other cases, otherwise. This would be where the service advisor should prioritize the repairs as "needed now" or "can wait a little while" before presenting it to the customer.

At the bottom of almost EVERY dealership repair order is the box to check "Return Old Parts To Customer". VERY few customers seem to be aware of that option, but I suspect that only a handfull MIGHT want their old parts back, even if just for verification, as they might not fully know what they had or could tell how it failed, or want to deal with them. Few might even know if what they're looking at came from their vehicle, possibly. Still, it is the customer's right to have the removed parts returned to them in a suitable box or plastic bag if desired. A BETTER orientation would be to personally check back with the service advisor and ask that they accompany the customer into the shop area to see their vehicle (after it is disassembled for repairs) so that what is actually being done can be seen by them. Many shops have "Employees ONLY" or "Customers Are Required to Wait in the Waiting Room" signs posted, but a service advisor should be able to escort them into the repair area for such a looksee (and make them aware of any possible perils of their trip in the process, as slick floors, for example).

Similarly, a technician SHOULD be available to explain what the service advisor might not be fully versed upon in the particular repair situation. Even including escorting the customer into and out of the service repair area OR talking to the customer on the service drive (which might be scary in some situations). In other words, the CUSTOMER needs to feel completely comfortable about what is being done and THEY are paying for--even if it's a warranty repair. Asking questions is the way for that to happen--period.

The SAME situations can and do exist at private/chain store repair shops--dealerships are NOT immune to these thing by themselves! The prices might be different as the prices and expertise of the employees can change, but the possible issues can be highly similar. A good private/chain repair shop service manager will KNOW what the limitations of their facilities and employees are and NOT take in anything or dispatch a job to an employee that probably should not be doing it . . . unless they might be trying to get rid of them by giving them a job that will take way to long for them to do or fail at it (reason for termination). Sometimes, even a relatively simple repair turned into a nightmare! There might be ASE signs hanging in the shop, but that does not mean that all of their technicians are ASE certified at that point in time. ASE certification is not a magic bullet of compentency, but it's supposed to help. Personally, a shirt sleeve full of course-completion patches CAN denote a certain level of competency (which MUST be maintained), but not for ALL vehicles of ALL years, typically, but later model vehicles with electronics and fuel injection, but what matters is if they can do the job right even if it's an oil and filter change (tire rotation, with tire pressure sensors is not a part of that situation any more) at least to me.

In reality, it will take several trips to a particular repair facility to make a good determination of who is good at what and why. Over the years, I've seen many repairs generated by "fast lube" chain employees putting the wrong fluid in the right places. One lady's Riviera started slowing down for now reason, even at WOT, on the freeway. A "fast lube" operative, a few days earlier, had put the wrong fluid in the brake master cylinder reservoir. It caused things to expand in the brake system which put pressure into the system (as if the brakes were being applied by the foot brake). A quick inspection revealed why it happened. The lady was able to get to the shoulder of the road to make a safe stop. When presented with documentation, the lube facility paid the bill. Or the time a tire store stripped a lug bolt thread in the brake hub of a Mercedes convertible . . . fixed by the extended hours service at a Mercedes dealership--the tire store didn't care about cost, just get it fixed at the dealership (seems like it was about $700.00, parts and labor, 25 years ago).

So, NO repair facility is immune to flaky deals, but it seems that dealerships get more "bad press" (at least initially) than private repair shops do as the customers tend to hold them to higher standards of execution or excellence than a private/chain repair shop (OR the private shops can tend to side-step certain repairs, which is their priviledge, which dealerships HAVE to deal with)--regardless of dealership size of newness of facilities. Unfortunately, FEW dealership employees (or even owners and general managers) understand or are aware of this situation. Maybe it's the hourly labor rates, or the direct connection to the manufacturer, or otherwise? Many situations can end up "no win" for the dealership when they could have been otherwise, by observation, but we also hear of some horror stories from private shops (when customers would call to check parts prices or otherwise, at which time I'd inquire what their concerns might be). If a customer doesn't feel they're getting correct information from a repair shop, they'll call around to find somebody that CAN give them credible information. Many customers CAN take what dealership employees might tell them, even something seemingly harmless, "as gospel" and THAT information becomes "correct" in their eyes--something else many dealership operatives are not aware of.

Much of the manufacturer's Customer Satisfaction Index outcomes CAN be the direct result of what happens on the dealership's service drive. No amount of training or looking at "Best Retail Practices" on the particular GM Training website can really address the many variations which can happen between a service advisor and a particular customer at the particular time of day. BUT a seasoned service advisor with good product knowledge CAN and good interpersonal skills can go a long way toward making the customer feel like they are being treated fairly and equitably. The service advisor has NO knowledge of what the customer might have had to deal with earlier that day, which can also put things in a different perspective, sometimes. It's not the easiest job in the world and not one that everybody has the mental orientation to tolerate. Be that as it may.

A service advisor SHOULD have a decent amount of product and systems operation, which can answer and solve many issues on the service drive rather than in the repair shop--user issues, sometimes. Enough mechanical knowledge to credibly explain why something might need to be repaired/replaced, too, but that doesn't always happen. The other side of things is that the service advisor should effectively put the customer's concerns in words to convey the customer's concerns to the technician for an effective diagnosis and repair. Some take these as "hard and fast" rules, but in reality, the better situation is reached in the gray areas on that particular continuum to allow the service advisor to better deal with particular concerns and situations by using their accumulated expertise of what they've observed of vehicles which have been repaired in their shop--plus a great working relationship AND trust of the technicians in what they can and will do in estimating the repairs and then performing the approved repairs.

I understand Roberta's concerns about going to get a flat fixed and the result being two new tires. I've seen that happen, BUT depending upon where the nail might have been in the tire, THAT can determine of it's a repairable situation. One new tire on the same axle set as a worn tire is not a good situation, IF it can be avoided. Plus, if the tires are becoming worn (even highly weather cracked with low miles!), it would be better to go ahead and replace them than return a few months later with another problem. In reality, knowing you've got new tires can result in better "peace of mind" in the coming driving season (and rain!) which can exceed the price of the tires over just a flat repair. Personally, I'd be more concerned that OEM-spec tires (or thereabouts) were what were replaced rather than lesser quality tires and that they will be taken care of by the seller if anything goes wrong. Several ways to look at that situation.

A growing concern, from many of our situations with vintage vehicles, is that many younger techs now coming online in the business have grown up not knowing what "point grease" or carburetors are (OR how to diagnose or adjust them!)--even at dealerships. There MIGHT be some older dealership mechanics who might have expertise in these areas (once they sweep the cobwebs out of the back corner of their mind), but then finding a parts operative who knows what they are talking about OR can effectively transfer that information to an auto supply vendor (with possibly similar "less vintage" age issues) can present possible problems in many areas. Finding and HONEST and CREDIBLE repair shop for that sort of repairs (or possible upgrades to more modern equipment) CAN be better than finding a good place to get an oil/filter change for a daily driver. Still, you have to go in with your eyes open and ask plenty of questions with hopefully accurate repair estimates "up front", with approvals given for additional amounts if needed (just like you'd do at a dealership).

Enjoy!

NTX5467

[GMPARTSMAN]

I'll jump in this discussion too. Like I've said before, 38 years in GM dealership parts departments, "What a long strange trip it's been".

Everyone complains about our prices. Yes, I will admit AutoZone, Murray's, Pep Boys, et al are cheaper than we are.

But go to one of them and try to get a insturment panel wire harness, a wiper transmission, or even a rear axle shaft. I can bet you will be told it's a dealer item. And these are low volume items, it costs money to build them, store them, ship them to the dealership, and for the persons in the dealership to handle them too. One of the reasons we are higher.

This brings up another part. As a earlier poster made mention of a wiper circuit board, a GOOD parts consultant, person, whatever you want to call them would tell this to you. A average mass merchandiser counter person, a eight dollar a hour passing the time until something else opens up person (you know what I mean) may or may not say anything or really care.

I, like NTX5467 consider myself a professional in my field.

Thirty eight years in various positions in several GM dealerships. Professionals,in whichever field they are in have to be compensated fairly or they will leave that field.

If I had a "union job" like it was alluded to by a earlier poster, I could be retired now, instead of working a average of ten hours a day for at least another five to ten years, the only retirement is Social Security and my 401K that the dealer "gave" me with such a low percentage match it was almost a joke. Two cents of his money to each dollar of mine. Not much for almost twenty years of service IMHO.

And our health and disability insurance, well they pay SOME of it, but the amount we pay, well last year about 5K was my share for health coverage alone. Puts a huge dent in the take home figure. Some times makes you wonder why you picked this business. But you get to a certain point in life, it's too hard to change careers and start over again unless you are forced to.

And for all this, the first time someone has a problem that they cannot get resolved at the mass-merchandisers, guess where they end up at. Yes, at our counter wanting us to figure out how to correct the problem. More times than not,we lose more time and money stepping into this, trying to figure out just what happened and how to get it corrected. Usually without even a thank you form the customer. Or the "great" support we get from the "corporation". For example, when the '97 Grand Prix's headlamp lenses would separate from the headlamp body and fall off. I actually had a phone center rep from GM TELL ME that I NEED to give the customer a discount because the car was out of warranty! Hmmm, I didn't design or build it, how's this my fault? AND who's pocket does this come out of?

I got into some hot water over this as subsequently I told EACH customer to file a Zone complaint for reimbursement for defective parts on a known problem. I still smile at that one! The most fun I ever had getting a b****out! Revenge was mine!

This is just my opinion, I hope not too negative of a opinion. But I have listened to dealer bashing for many years, some deserved, a lot not deserved.

[Guest simplyconnected]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 'Reatta1'</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Bottom line, they will not get any more of my business.</div></div> That IS the bottom line, and I cringe when I hear it.

I might sound like I love independent garages, but they are the better of two evils. I come to you from the factory, and will be the first to say, our own dealerships will tear you a new A$$. They have NO love for our products, and are in business to turn profits for the franchise, using every means. They will not argue your case, and they don't care who pays, as long as it's someone else.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GMPARTSMAN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...38 years in GM dealership parts departments... I will admit AutoZone, Murray's, Pep Boys, et al are cheaper than we are. </div></div> Murray's in Madison Heights, Michigan, will take orders for dealership parts. They pick-up a dealer part, and charge LESS than the dealership charges me. Murray's realizes that dealerships have a 'captive audience' who has nowhere else to turn.<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GMPARTSMAN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...If I had a "union job" like it was alluded to by a earlier poster, I could be retired now, instead of working a average of ten hours a day for at least another five to ten years, the only retirement is Social Security and my 401K that the dealer "gave" me with such a low percentage match it was almost a joke. Two cents of his money to each dollar of mine.</div></div> You worked for 38 years in a NON-union shop and NOW you are sorry? Why? Ford never matched a cent of my 401k, and the 2% you are given compounds with the bank interest (about another 2-3%). Count your blessings, or make a change.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GMPARTSMAN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">... And for all this, the first time someone has a problem that they cannot get resolved at the mass-merchandisers, guess where they end up at. Yes, at our counter...

...how's this my fault? AND who's pocket does this come out of?

I told EACH customer to file a Zone complaint for reimbursement for defective parts on a known problem. </div></div> What is a dealership for? To you, it's for the franchise owner, but without customers, he won't last long. It looks like we all have different answers, depending on where we are situated. If dealers took good care of their customers, they would own mass merchandising outlets, and you would be pushing a cart through the dealership parts department isles.

Does this make sense to ANYONE?: You make products, then other companies service and sell parts for them because you (the manufacturer) are not allowed to. That's crazy.

The Jap's don't like that setup, either. That's why they fix absolutely every little thing they can, before their cars get on that boat. It's not because their labor costs are lower, or because they believe Americans are lazy and stupid. Who knows the product better than the manufacturer? Nobody. They have a point. Consider the huge numbers, again. They want to keep dealership issues like these to a bare minimum, or elliminate them altogether.

I'm going to ruffle some feathers with this: I would LOVE to see GM (and Ford) open a few dealerships, using their own mechanics rotated from the assembly plants. I guarantee they would take much better care of their customers, at very fair prices. If GM (or Ford) chooses to ignore customer complaints, the UAW won't. We are all in this together. Why is it always a fight, just to get things done right?