Dealer rip offs

[Guest Reatta1]

Got some bad gas in the Park Avenue and it quit running. Nearest GM shop is a Chev Dealer here in town where I had it towed. Service advisor said the fuel pump is gone and needs to be replaced along with the filter and then injector service. Quoted me $975 of which $550 is for the fuel pump. Seemed over the top to me so I did some checking on the internet and I can buy the fuel pump for less than half that from GM Parts Direct. So my question to you guys, does that sound like a rip off? I plan on telling him I'll supply the parts and if he can't cut me a better deal than $425 on the labor, I'll take it to an independent shop. What do you all think?

[dkbuick75]

Don't expect the dealer to "cut" any deals. 98% are union shops and the techs will infom their labor board rep if the dealer tries to alter from the established labor rate book times that are are allocated for the job you are having done. Do not expect the dealership to be over enthused about you suppling your own parts. First they will make the statement they can't warranty the part-- even if it is New OE in the box, because they did not sell it to you. Second, think of it as walking into a restaurant for breakfast and giving the cook your own eggs to cook for you. It's unfortunate that dealerships don't wise up and sell their parts at the wholesale prices to their customers- because you can buy the same part @ any parts store for the discounted wholesale price, this would really show customer service and generate customer loyalty to that dealership, but most are greedy bean counters and only think and see full maximum profit on any and every service sold through their store. But, if you plan on removing the vehicle from the dealer service dept- which you have the legal right to do, be prepared to pay for some kind of Diagnostic charge for the services the dealer has already performed in inspecting and diagnosing your problem. Usual customary charge is 1 hour diagnostic at their normal labor rate, which can be anywhere from $85 to $125/hr depending on your area of the country. A lot of people do not understand this charge, but remember a tech has already spent time looking at and hooking up various test equipment to your vehicle in order to properly diagnos and tell you what is wrong with your car. In most states you have to sign the repair order first, giving the shop permission to inspect and/or repair your vehicle, prior to the shop touching your car. Just some thoughts to be aware of in case the service advisor has not already explained this to you when you had it towed. Hope this helps.

[Guest Reatta1]

If I yank it from them I fully expect to pay a 'diagnostic' charge which I firmly believe will be at rip off rates. This is after all, the same service department that charged me $150 to tighten up a bolt at the bottom of the steering colum on my pickup a couple years ago. So I suppose I should have known better to begin with. I have not signed anything and the service manager only said they would take a look at it after the tow company dropped it off. His original ballpark over the phone was 4 to 5 hundred. I thought that was high and then when he said $975 after they looked at it I nearly blew a gasket on the phone. Told him not to do anything as I had to think about that. I've used their body shop and get along great with the manager as he is willing to cut me deals and has installed parts I picked up.

[Guest simplyconnected]

My cousin, a retired GM exec., broke down in Kalamazoo. He has a Pontiac Trans Sport. Just like you said, they had to replace the fuel pump, filter, etc. There is only one Pontiac dealership in Kalamazoo, and they are NOT a union shop. They soaked him for $1,000.00.

NAPA had that same pump, within eyeshot of the dealer for under $100.00. BTW, GM doesn't make thier pumps. They buy them, like everyone else.

If it were me, I would pay a tow driver $500, just to save $100, and have it done locally.

Bringing your car to a dealership shows good faith with the corporation. Many times you can speak with a service rep., who may cut you a deal (like, GM will pay for ½, or ¼, for bringing it in to an authorized dealership). The dealership doesn't care who pays, as long as he gets his money. He isn't acting as an agent (between you and the corp.) he is an independent franchise owner, with NO allegiance to anyone but himself.

Michigan has ONE Ford dealership that is unionized (UAW), and there’s only ONE in Ohio. Their rates are no higher than the area’s other dealerships, and both of those dealerships unionized in the past year. GM dealerships aren’t unionized either. Most of those shops treat their mechanics very poorly.

My cousin PAID $1,000. He was hopping mad.

The dealer said, “Cha-CHING! It’s payday!”

For that kind of money, they should have replaced the entire fuel tank, with everything in it, and returned it full of gas. No such luck.

[Barney Eaton]

I believe the reason the "fuel pump" is so high.... they replace the entire in-tank unit.(pump, sock, gas gage sending unit)

It is much quicker to pull and replace than to put on just the fuel pump (which is expensive from GM but not $500)

I learned this in the early '90's when a Bonneville would not start and I was in a parking garage... had to find a wrecker that would clear the building and the Pontiac dealer was wanting the same high price way back then.

After talking to the service manager, they did sell me the parts at "wholesale"

I also learned that GM is the only game in town when it come to the gage sending unit. A good friend purchased a nice Reatta but the gas gage did not work. After doing the diagnostics, they pointed to the intank unit.

The winding part was good but the wiper at the pivot point was not touching...an attempt to bend it and make it rub, snap the thin brass wiper. We made a repair that is still working fine, after trying every auto parts store only to find that it is a GM only part.

[Matt Harwood]

A good independent mechanic is worth his weight in gold. They're rarely as expensive as a dealer, use pretty much the same parts, and for a simple R&R like this, it's fairly hard to screw it up. I bet an independent could do the whole job for less than the cost of the part from the stealership. The only downside is the diagnostic fee (do they waive it if you do the work there?) and paying to move the car somehow. It might be a wash at that point.

The dealerships are pricing themselves out of the market and parts/service is where they make a good deal of their profits. I have a great local mechanic who has solved all my problems for incredibly reasonable rates and doesn't mind me bringing my own parts for the more obscure repairs. He's a little high on things like mounting/balancing tires, but impossibly cheap for things like extracting broken spark plugs from the Big Red Dodge.

[Ron Green]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Barney Eaton</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I believe the reason the "fuel pump" is so high.... they replace the entire in-tank unit.(pump, sock, gas gage sending unit) </div></div>

Sounds similar to my wiper motor in my Chevy tow mule. Complete motor is $400 and if you do some research you can buy just the circuit board for $40, however the dealer won't tell you that.

[Barney Eaton]

My grandaughter has a '96 BMW and it is always interesting when something needs fixed.

Examples

* Convertible top is a complex series of motors and switches, but it also relys on two "bungy" cords that run from the windshield to the bow above the rear window. When they wear out like old underware, you must "help" the top.

Cost...the bungys are $58 on Ebay, but the entire top must be removed to install...total estimate $1200

* Rear windows use a capstan attached to the motor with a cable wrapped around the capstan, her cable slipped of track, kinked it and BMW does not carry the cable, you must purchase the "regulator" which is the mechanism, but no motor or glass.... price for just the part $325

* Last week the A/C controller failed...could not select anything. BMW price new $600, rebuilt $300, Ebay vendor fixed it for $40

[Guest simplyconnected]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Matt Harwood</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A good independent mechanic is worth his weight in gold. They're rarely as expensive as a dealer, use pretty much the same parts, and for a simple R&R like this, it's fairly hard to screw it up. </div></div>Well put, Matt. Sometimes the biggest job is dealing with a full tank (20 gal.) of fuel. A full tank weighs about 150 pounds, it's dangerous, you have to put it somewhere (buy four, five-gal. cans), then you have to pour it back in. Dropping an empty tank (if necessary) and changing the fuel pump is fast and relatively easy if you have a hoist. It sure isn't worth a Grand, for a few hour's work! - Dave Dare

[Reatta Man]

I know about the problem you mentioned about the circuit boad in the wiper motor.

Hoever, please don't mix comparisons; Barney is right. The entire in-tank assembly must be replaced. And, I have heard time and time again that the only way to go is an AC-Delco unit. I'm a fan of NAPA parts, but in this case, OEM is the way to go.

You can get a cheap pump from Autozone or many other places. If you do, keep your receipt because you (or your mechanic) will be replacing it over and over again.

If you can save money by buying an OEM pump from a parts store, great. But please don't ever go the cheap route by just replacing the motor with a 'Made in Bangladesh' part.

[Guest simplyconnected]

Does that mean Accel, Bosch, Carter, & Edelbrock are all 'cheap pumps?'

GM (ACDelco, Delphi) has the best pumps? Very interesting. GM and Ford don't make their own fuel pumps, they buy them like everyone else. Where does GM gets pumps from?

The Mustang pump I'm looking at says "Denso" on the pump motor. I recognize Denso as an electric window motor company from Japan. I wonder if Denso is making Edlebrock's pumps, too?

I trust Edelbrock (or any of the others listed). It looks exactly like the Mustang GT 5.0 OEM, and it comes with a 1-year warranty, ALL FOR UNDER A HUNDRED BUCKS! Not $500 or a Grand. 41-gal/hr, $93.99 out the door at Murrays:

http://www.partsamerica.com/ProductDetail.aspx?MfrCode=EDB&MfrPartNumber=17930&PartType=52&PTSet=A

It even comes with a new electrical pigtail, hoses & clamps, and new pickup screen. What warranty does the GM pump come with?

Show me the other $900.00, in labor. I need to be convinced. I love the OEM's, but this is blatant robbery. Nobody can rationalize charging $900 labor for four hours work. A good mechanic can do it in two hours (or better).

An independent garage mechanic couldn't look you in the eye and ask that much money for a fuel pump change. - Dave

[JohnD1956]

Before running to the nearest dealership and burning the garage doors off,look under the car. While this price sounds exorbitant, what is really involved in the repair? In my former 95 Riviera I believe the entire rear axle assembly has to be dropped to get the tank out. Anyone want to do that cheap?

What's the real shame is that the manufacturers engineer this stuff to be not only next to impossible to do but highly likely it will need to be done. Honestly, some of this stuff could be made with service in mind. Is it really necessary to bury the electric pump, that will inevitably fail, in the tank to begin with? And if so, how about a body access plate so the tank and suspension can stay in place and you only deal with the part?

Also, tools, scanners, shop HVAC energy charges and mortgages and taxes all need to be paid too. Not to mention floor plan interest on mandatory inventory levels. I'm certain there is a profit level to be had here, but Dealerships are not my idea of fun.

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The Mustang pump I'm looking at says "Denso" on the pump motor. I recognize Denso as an electric window motor company from Japan. I wonder if Denso is making Edlebrock's pumps, too? </div></div>

Denso is one of the largest suppliers to automotive industry, and they happen to be the world's largest supplier of fuel pumps (OEM & aftermarket) and several other components. Frankly it wouldn't suprise me <span style="font-style: italic">at all</span> if they made pumps for Edelbrock. In fact I'd bet it's a certainty that they make at least one of the pumps on your list.

[Barney Eaton]

I have changed the fuel pump on a 1991 Reatta several times.

(rusty tank causing all the problems, last time we changed the tank) Check with the parts houses and many offer lifetime pumps.

I guess it depends on the status of your Park Ave at this time. If it is at a GM dealer, you could have it towed to a mechanic. Maybe they would allow you to take the tank and install the pump, you could then return the tank to them for install. Of course they will not warrent any of the work.

Do an Ebay search for gas tanks that fit your 01 Park Ave.

I suspect there are several GM cars that use the same gas tank, which means the pump/gas gage assembly is the same.

You could get a tank and pump assembly from a wreck and install that.

[Guest Bill_Boro]

If you replace the pump more than once due to rust I would look into at least using a gas tank sealer if you don't buy a new tank before replacing the pump again. Eastwood sells a sealer does and one have any experiance with it or similar product?

[Guest Bill_Boro]

If you replace the pump more than once due to rust I would look into at least using a gas tank sealer if you don't buy a new tank before replacing the pump again. Eastwood sells a sealer does and one have any experiance with it or similar product?

[NTX5467]

Reatta1, with all due respect, it seems you've already made up your mind against the dealership's repair shop, so asking for opinions seems like you're looking for support in your orientations . . . with all due respect.

What the service advisor quoted you was the most common reason for your vehicle's doing what it did. It's only an ESTIMATE as things CAN change when the tech gets the vehicle into the stall (whether at a dealership OR an independent shop) and sees what's really going on. A good tech will FIRST check the fuel pressure at the engine as this will tell if the pump is good or weak or otherwise. It takes a minimum pressure for the injectors to fire, like 55psi or more. Until that pressure is reached, it's just "extended crank time" and no more. So, rather than getting all excited and running aroung trying to see if you're about to be screwed, you might calm down a little and find out what the real problem might be.

You mention the high checkout fee, but that usually is the same as 1 labor hour at normal shop rates. Also consider that the technician does not get all of that money for themselves as it also goes to pay overhead items for the service department and for the employees to be there.

As for union shops, they are NOT everywhere in the USA. Some areas have more than others, but rest assured that they are NOT everywhere.

Sometimes, you might score a "goodwill" adjustment in labor charges, but with a vehicle as old as yours is, I don't see that happening very readily. Being nice helps, but I see no reason for that to happen in this particular situation as you didn't just (I suspect) have work done at the dealership which might have caused displeasure with you which the dealership people might be motivated to "make amends" in reducing any of the parts or labor prices on this particular repair.

As for bringing your own parts, that can get a little tricky. Key thing is that if the dealership gets the parts (as in genuine ACDelco), many of these parts carry a Lifetime Gurarantee with them. If you buy them over the counter in the parts department, the guarantee only covers the price of the part, but if it's installed at the dealership, then parts AND labor are covered. Of course, you've got to keep the documentation for any future claims in this area. Something to think about!

If you get the part from another source, and it might not be correct, then it will be YOU who'll have to contact whatever vendor to get the correct part. In the mean time, your vehicle will be pushed out of the shop until the correct part arrives. Why should a technician (union or otherwise) tie-up a stall just so you can save a little money on a parts price? In this scenario, all the dealership service department is liable for is correctly installing the part. If it fails in the stated warranty period, then any labor charges are on your side of the deal, which you might have to wait to receive reimbursement from the people you bought the part from if labor is part of their guarantee. Just some things to consider -- the dynamics of the situation.

As Dave mentioned, Denso is a worldwide supplier of many vehicle parts (other than just spark plugs). They might build the fuel pumps for ACDelco and others, but anything in the ACDelco/GM boxes will have to meet the specs and performance criteria of GM engineers to be in that box. The other sellers of the Denso pumps in other brand packaging may or may not meet the same GM specs, but will meet the specs (performance AND materials) of the company whose name is on the box for the particular pump. Same with oil filters built by Champion Labs for many OEM and aftermarket oil filter brands--just because it all comes from the same factory doesn't mean they are all of the same quality and performance specs (although they can be, but sometimes not).

As a point of reference, several years ago when we did extended hours to Midnight, it was at the time in the lives of many Chevy Suburbans when they hit the 65-70K mile range. If they had not had the fuel filter changed very often, they got towed-in for a "No Start" condition. We normally quoted a new pump, strainer, and inline fuel filter (the most common parts needed for the repair, until the whole scenario repeated itself a few times). Parts were about $150.00 which made the repair come to about $400.00.

When the tech would get the tank removed (sometimes taking special tools to get the fuel lines loose from the sending unit) and the sending unit removed to change the pump, they'd discover the need for a new sending unit too (due to the pump straining against the clogged/clogging fuel filter and causing issues with the wiring on the sending unit itself (this was on the systems "pre-module" where the pump could be changed separately). Price of the sending unit sent the price of the repair to about $800.00 total.

As stated, the first thing our techs did was to put a gauge on the fuel rail to check the pump's pressure. At that point, usually the pump would barely run. The filter, when removed, was clogged so much that you couldn't blow through it. In the case of "extended crank time", the fuel pressure would slowly build until it hit the 55psi mark and then the engine would start and run mostly normal, but a little sluggish.

Where you take the vehicle is of your determination--period. But there are different labor rates for GM Warranty time and "aftermarket" Chilton/Motor time (which can be about 20% more than GM Warranty Time). Therefore, the private shop with the lower hourly rate might end up costing more if the GM dealer is using warranty time rather than otherwise. Also, if you have a problem with the dealership repair, you have a little more leverage if things don't go right. If it's a private shop, they can request you go somewhere else and close the door in your face (if so motivated) . . . although many might not do that unless pushed.

I do concur with Matt that a good private repair shop with quality technicians is a GREAT thing to find. BUT you'll have to build a raport with them over time and patronization, just as with any other trusting business or friendly relationship. And the same thing CAN happen at the vehicle dealership level too.

Everybody's in business to make a profit. Before talking "rip-off" perhaps a little "What would I do if I was the one in business rather than a customer" consideration might need to be considered, with all due respect.

I would recommend that you let the dealership techs look at the vehicle to see what the real problem might end up being. If the updated estimate is more than you desire, you can pay the labor to put things back together and then have then push it out the door for the tow truck to pickup and take to where ever you desire. End result, though, is that you might save a little on the part, but the additional fees for teardown and inspection (NOT just the checkout fee) and tow truck service might not save ANYTHING in the long run. Nor would it make you any friends at the dealership (or where ever the same thing might happen), which can negate any possibility of "goodwill".

Dealership employees need to eat and pay bills and buy their kids clothes just as regular people do. Nobody really likes to cut their price just to please a customer who's already received an estimate of what the repair might cost as many (or most) are paid on a percentage of gross profit on the particular transaction (parts for their parts part of things, service for their side of things). Some might work with customers more than others, but it's at the option of those involved (i.e., parts operatives, service tech, service advisor).

IF you got some "bad gas", which is perceived to have caused the no-start problem, unless it's mostly diluted, it doesn't take much to get a fuel sample to verify such, especially if pump pressure is in specs. Bad gas, by itself, will not generally cause pump failure. If the fuel is contaminated, then the tank will need to be emptied and probably inspected for rust, algae formation, or sediment and cleaned somehow so that the pump will not fail again from the residual stuff in the tank. And that will cost extra, over and above the normal remove/replace tank and fuel pump unit.

Your car, your money, your choice of repair shops . . . but just be aware of the many side issues involved and various dynamics of the situation before making the final decision. I've mentioned some of these areas to consider as have others.

For the record, if a service advisor called to ask if there was anything I could do on a parts price to help a customer, I usually did reduce the price as much as I felt comfortable with, but it let us make sufficient profit and also help please the customer . . . but if WE did an adjustment, the same was expected of the service operatives. When customers or extended warranty companies supplied their own parts, it could a set-up for us having to deal with a mad customer later on (for several reasons NOT related to anything WE did wrong--whether it be a time delay in receiving the part, hopefully correct, or a failure later on due to the quality of the supplied part, new or used).

And yes, I did get paid on commission, but that didn't mean I "robbed" anybody--period. To me, helping take care of customers (which they hopefully appreciated, or came to) and possibly cutting the price a little was considered to be an investment in building the customer base rather than getting a "one-time" big profit that might result in a customer going somewhere else next time. But I didn't "give anything away" as that would not pay my bills (or the dealership's either)--some profit had to be made somewhere. And we did follow GM's recommended pricing on our parts to customers.

Respectfully,

NTX5467

[Guest simplyconnected]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 'Reatta1'</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Got some bad gas... advisor said the fuel pump is gone... then injector service. What do you all think? </div></div>Reatta1, pack up your baby and head down to an honest and reasonable mechanic. Here's why:

Bad gas doesn't cause a fuel pump to go bad. There is a fine-mesh screen in front of the pump inlet. If particles got past that mesh, which I doubt, it could destroy the pump. Next, you have a fuel filter to protect your injectors.

I don't know who did the troubleshooting, but I will bet it wasn't the Service Advisor. Those guys are usually NOT mechanics, and they don't want you to talk with one, either. Their job is to 'break the shell-shock gently.' They are not your friend.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave@Moon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Denso is one of the largest suppliers to automotive industry, and they happen to be the world's largest supplier of fuel pumps (OEM & aftermarket) and several other components. Frankly it wouldn't suprise me <span style="font-style: italic">at all</span> if they made pumps for Edelbrock. In fact I'd bet it's a certainty that they make at least one of the pumps on your list.</div></div> I agree whole-heartedly with Moon. Denso makes Mustang pumps and they probably make your GM pump, too. So, don't be afraid to get a good aftermarket pump, IF YOU NEED ONE! I'm still not convinced yours is bad, yet. If you had a clogged filter, wouldn't that cause your gas to stop flowing? You need a mechanic you can trust, not one who wants to start with a grand to change everything.

I have never seen anyone drop an axle to pull a fuel tank. It could be, they found it easier to drop the axle away from the shocks, so they wouldn't have to drop the tank. (That's a big difference.) Some sending units mount on top (like the Mustang) and others mount on the front. If the tank is less than 1/4 full, you could just pull the pump with the tank in place.

I am anxious to hear what an independent mechanic says. I will LMAO if he says the electrical connector was simply corroded. - Dave Dare

[Guest Reatta1]

OK gents, here is the punch line. Went in this morning to talk to the service manager. He got the tech that wrote the estimate to talk to me. The tech had never diagnosed the car, just wrote an estimate using the info the service manager gave him. He was working under the assumption that the car had been sitting unused for a couple years and the gas had gone bad and got varnished and when it was started had blown the pump. Once that misunderstanding was cleared up, they agreed to do another estimate,to wit, drain tank, replace fuel filter, injector service and 5 gallons new gas, $361 and change. I told them do it. They took out roughly 5 gallons, 3/4 of which was water. All said and done, car runs perfectly, maybe even better after injector service. All parties satisfied. I did tell him what I could buy the pump for from GM Parts Direct and he said he couldn't even buy it at that price from his source. Told him he should be shopping around. Anyway, all's well that ends well.

[Dandy Dave]

The sad thing is that most of these fuel pumps could be easily removed if there only was a removable panel in the trunk to access it. Then again, that would be too easy....and cost a few more dollars for the manufacturers to do..... They would make far less on the repair.... Dave!

[Reatta Man]

Reatta1,

Glad to hear your car is back on the road. Further proof that, with the right maintenance, most Buicks could (and should) last far, far longer than most of them are used before they meet the crusher.

As for the comments about buying OEM parts, NTX alluded to what I was talking about, but I want to expand it a little more for the benefit of the forum users. If you choose to ignore or disagree, that is your choice.

I've talked to several independent shops, including one of the fleet managers for a local fleet of police cars running Crown Vics almost exclusively.

These guys see patterns occur at very predictable time and mileage intervals, and they have lived through trying to save themselves or their customers a few bucks on cheaper parts.

The bottom line continues to be that cheaper fuel pumps or fuel pump assemblies containing the strainer and sending unit from non-OEM suppliers are CONSISTENTLY not lasting as long as OEM units. Denso, Borg or other companies may be making OEM parts, but as NTX said, that does NOT mean their retail-store version is made to the same specs as they would make a part for GM, Ford, Chrysler, etc.

Another point to keep in mind is that replacing fuel filters will make your fuel pump live longer, along with NOT running your tank down to nearly empty on a regular basis.

I hope this will save someone from having to replace a cheap pump a second time after 6-9 months. This is NOT an easy, quick or safe job. If I can avoid having to do this a second time by spending a little more money on an OEM pump, it is money well spent.

Joe

[Matt Harwood]

Glad to hear you're back on the road. It really sucks that they were just guessing about the repair and didn't even do any actual diagnostic work (which they would have charged you an hour's worth of time for had you taken the car elsewhere ).

Had you not questioned the price and asked for clarification, and just went ahead and let them fix it, would they have socked you with the $1000 bill anyway? You'd be none the wiser, right? My guess is that they would have taken your money and slept well that night.

[Guest simplyconnected]

Well said, Matt. I want to thank Riatta1 for braving this thread. I am glad that your car is running again. This topic brought out many problems with our system of repairing good American cars. Some answers revealed things happening behind the scenes that you never realized, and some answers revealed people's perception of what they think is going on.

I believe Riatta1 spent $361 to remove fuel/water and change the filter, but I am still not convinced his old pump is bad. (Water does not cause a pump to go bad.) I KNOW there was nothing wrong with his injectors. SAVE YOUR PARTS, Riatta1!

Dealers have only one agenda, THEIR OWN. They lie like dogs and expect good people to believe them. Well, of course you believe, it's the DEALERSHIP. GM's name and symbols are all over his building, and you are at a disadvantage because your GM car is down.

Sure dealerships have bills to pay, don't we all. But why should they sabotage the good relationship between the OEM and the customer? If Reatta1 was a little old lady, her only choice would be to trust the dealership and give up a grand. And, that's why my cousin PAID the Pontiac dealer in Kalamazoo his Grand. GM employee for 40 years? They couldn't care less. He never even got kissed.

That's precisely why people go elsewhere for a new car, they hate to deal with an idiot that CHARGES ONE HOUR to GUESS. Ok, that's not robbery, it is extortion. Any independent mechanic would not have charged for that.

Can you see the importance of speaking with the mechanic, directly? Dealerships don't want you speaking with their mechanics. Instead they use a professional liar to speak between you AND the mechanic. Both you and the mechanic, were given different stories. Consquently, they never even tried to troubleshoot, but you believed they did. A GRAND, please.

By the way Riatta1, how long is the warranty period? If you don't know, would you call them and answer this, please?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NTX5467</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Key thing is that if the dealership gets the parts (as in genuine ACDelco), many of these parts carry a Lifetime Gurarantee with them. If you buy them over the counter in the parts department, the guarantee only covers the price of the part, but if it's installed at the dealership, then parts AND labor are covered.</div></div> Yours may be one of those many Lifetime Guarantee parts. - Dave Dare, Ford Motor Co., Dearborn

[HurstGN]

Recent experience I had. On a 2000 Boneville SSEi, I had the dealer diagnose a bad oil pressure sender (not replace), and replace the lower intake manifold gasket. Yup, same one that's in dispute by a class action suit right now, but I'm not included...al supercharged engines don't qualify even though we use the SAME gasket. Anywho....I get the job done and get the car back, only to find several problems.

First, I pay $75 to diagnose the bad switch and now it reads 0 PSI on the oil pressure. It read 120 PSI when I took it in. Dealer says they reset something in the computer and that's how it reads now. I also get a check engine light within one day of leaving the dealer for a TPS problem. I look myself to see what I can find as they can't take the car back in for a week. I find the oil pressure sending unit was left disconnected, and the socket was almost destroyed by the moving drivetrain parts. $75 so I could crawl underneath and plug the sensor back in to get my 120 PSI reading back. I'm pissed at this.

Second, I pay for the intake manifold, and now have a TPS code. Looking under the engine cover I find several things. 1 - Fuel rail service port cap is missing. Thanks for stealing my cap guys. 2 - A vacuum line that goes to the fuel pressure regulator is OFF and causing the TPS code in the car. Thanks for making me complete the reassembly of the job I paid for. 3 - A vacuum line (custom bent line, dealer only part) off the throttle body is broken and fixed by wrapping with electrical tape. WTF?!? C'mon, this line HAD to be removed to do the repair, so I know they saw it. It wasn't fixed?!? I take the car back in a week later and tell them how I reconnected a sensor, am missing a cap, fixed a disconnected vacuum line, and show them the sh!t repair of the TB vacuum line. The service manager tells me he'll discuss it with the other service manager that handled the job in the first place and the other guy will call me. Meanwhile a tech looks at the line covered in tape and asks "Is it causing a vacuum leak?" I said no, but it was a shoddy repair. Even if they didn't break it, and it was in that condition when it went in, at a minimum i should have been notified of the bad previous repair. The tech said well, if it's not leaking, then it's OK. WHAT?!? C'mon now....what kinda crap is this? Oh, the phone call to discuss my issues....they never called.

Yea, I got shafted and this dealer is lower than snail slime when it comes to customer satisfaction in my book. If anyone wants to know who it is, it's Bowser Pontiac in Pleasant Hills PA.

People who know me know I can work on a car, but with my schedule, a lower intake manifold gasket is just too much of a job to get done myself. I trusted the dealer. I got hosed. No matter who you are, buyer beware. Especially if you don't have a personal relationship with the repair facility.

[Guest simplyconnected]

Dan, please call/write Pontiac Motors, and let them know how their dealership is representing them. They may not do anything about it, but these kind of stories are directly responsible for GM's customers fleeing to foreign products.

I'm sure Pontiac (or GM) has a hotline for these issues. Truth is, OEM's rarely hear about dealership attrocities, unless warranty is involved.

These are the pro's. It breaks my heart that this goes on, ruining the good name of respectable establishments. - Dave

[Guest Reatta1]

Simplyconnected, they did not replace the fuel pump. All they needed to do was purge the bad, watered gas, replace the fuel filter, do injector service and put in fresh gas. $361 for that did not seem unreasonable to me. The bad gas was my fault as I put it in from a storage barrel I keep for mower and other small engine fuel. It has been kept outside this past year and been rained on so I expect water that sat on top of the barrel seeped through the bungs and settled on the bottom. When I pumped it into a can for the car i got the water and some sediment that accumulated on the bottom of the barrel. I wouldn't normaly use that gas in the car except that we had been running around in the local community (no gas station) and got low. In order to not take the chance of running out before we got to a gas station I put some of that in the car. Won't happen again. I'm sure some of the crud that got into the car tank made it into the injectors so that was a reasonable service. The barrel will go into the shop after I get the water and crud pumped out and that should take care of that problem. I spent much of today pumping fuel out into a large pan, letting the water and junk settle then pouring off the good gas. This experience just points out that you are never too old to learn, or in my case, relearn a lesson. I really should have known better than to store that fuel barrel out in the weather.

[Bhigdog]

I'm told that using a chamois, a real one, in a funnel as a filter will hold back the water/crud but let the gas through. This is standard procedure for refueling aircraft from drums in some third world areas but I've never had to do it myself.......Bob

[Guest simplyconnected]

Throw that gas to hell away, as fast as you can. If it has any ethynol, THAT is saturated with water, and all the good stuff evaporated long ago leaving a concentration of varnish. Using that gas already cost you big bucks, so cut your loses.

I still stand by; your filter keept ALL the crud out of your injectors. It will let water through, but not particles. Don't forget, there is a screen on the inlet of your pump, too. In a few months, change your fuel filter again.

Now that we know the story, what all did the dealership actually do with your tank? Did they drop it and wash it out properly?

[NTX5467]

Reatta1, I'm very glad you got things taken care of. As always, it NEVER hurts to ask questions and clarify some things which might have gotten blurred as the communications pass from one person to another. I think you did very well and I'm glad all is now well with the car.

Simplyconnected, I take great offense at your comments that all dealers are crooks and cheats and liars (or similar). From my experiences, I KNOW that is NOT a universal truth. In the case of the estimate to fix Reatta1's car, they were working from somewhat incorrect information and his asking for a clarification got things back on the right track. Just because one of your associatates had a flaky experience at a Pontiac store should NOT be a condemnation of all similar dealerships for any reason!

If ANYBODY has any concerns about poor dealership service (warranty or otherwise), there should be a GM Customer Service phone number in the back of the owner's manual or on the www.GM.com website. Also, if you feel the service experience at the dealership was great, you can probably use the same contact channels to tell GM what a great experience you had at the dealership--works both ways.

As Reatta Man mentioned, many dealership and fleet operator service operatives see the patterns of vehicles needing certain repairs at certain general mileage intervals which the individual customer does not see or possibly have any knowledge of. Therefore, they use this accumulated knowledge and observations to make service recommendations or write repair estimates for customers. Of course, sometimes, it works to their disadvantage BUT I would suspect that when the estimate is found to be wrong (by the tech once they get things torn down), they'll get with the service advisor and update them on the new findings and how to proceed (as the service advisor should be bird-dogging all of the repair orders they generate).

Again, I'm glad things worked out well for you, Reatta1!

NTX5467

[Guest simplyconnected]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NTX5467</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Simplyconnected, I take great offense at your comments that all dealers are crooks and cheats and liars (or similar). From my experiences...</div></div> Thank You for letting me know how greatly offended you are. I hope your feelings aren't too damaged. I appreciate your experiences too, but they are NOT shared by a huge number of long time buyers of American automobiles. I don't need to site examples, but you can refer to: <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HurstGN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yea, I got shafted and this dealer is lower than snail slime when it comes to customer satisfaction in my book. If anyone wants to know who it is, it's Bowser Pontiac in Pleasant Hills PA.</div></div> Don't forget, we are ALL in this together. HurstGN spelled it right out in plain English. HISTORICALLY, dealerships lie like dogs for stupid reasons that end up driving customers away. (It's no secret.)

My paychecks say, "Ford Motor Company" on them. How does it strike you when friends and relatives tell you about how they got fleeced by a dealer? The situation is so bad, they all get together, asking where the best dealership is. Many times, NOBODY KNOWS. That's sad!

Bring your car into a dealership for service in Chicago or Boston. They don't bat an eye, asking for two-Grand for things like TPS or Mass Air Sensor, etc, service. They KNOW customers aren't going to diagnose/repair their own car. As I said, it's extortion. My sister paid $5-grand for her Lincoln tranny to be rebuilt in Naperville, IL. But wait a minute, the dealer sent it OUT, and tacked their percentage on the job. I can get a brand new one for $2,500 in Detroit. Rebuild jobs in Detroit are $1,500, with a year guarantee. I picked up a brand-new Automatic OverDrive from a guy in Cleveland for $400! The Internet, this forum, and eBay put the whammy on a lot of dealership business, creating more home repairs and online parts purchases. May God help little old ladies, as they drive into the service department, because THEY are dealership's bread-and-butter.

If you work at a dealership, you know you have disadvantaged and captive customers; many times they have nowhere else to go. What do you charge?<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NTX5467</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ...I did get paid on commission... I didn't "give anything away"... And we did follow GM's recommended pricing on our parts to customers.</div></div> It's all about the business of making big profits for the franchise owner.

A thousand bucks for a fuel pump...<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Matt Harwood</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...Had you not questioned the price and asked for clarification, and just went ahead and let them fix it, would they have socked you with the $1000 bill anyway? You'd be none the wiser, right? My guess is that they would have taken your money and slept well that night.</div></div> You know what? This runs rampant and it hurts my feelings as well. Get ready, here comes another live one.

[SBRMD]

NTX, I always appreciate your posts, finding them extremely illuminating, and I'm sure there are many honest people at dealerships, but......I too have had plenty of the other experiences at dealers, certainly more ofetn than at smaller shops. Professional liars is sometimes a very apt description.

One time, after the (GM) dealer stripped the threads on my oil pan drain plug, they (the writer) told me that the ignition key to my oil-less car was locked safely in the tech's tool box. Ten minutes later, I found my car pushed outside, unattended, with key in ignition and window open, still with no drain plug and no oil! And the stories go on. And that's just me!

Really, it's the relationship that counts. I have all my work done, where I can help it, by a great guy that I met when he was a Midas tech in about 1982. He's a manager of a Midas now, I have followed him all over town for >25 years, because he's HONEST. And, he's good. But honest rates before good in my book; most tech know how to actually fix the car.

Can't stand giving my car to tech X, especially at the dealer.

[HurstGN]

Just to add fuel to the fire, different dealer (North Star Chevrolet formerly in Carnegie PA, now in Moon Twp. PA) had my car for inspection. It was free because the car was purchased there. They said the rad needed replaced due to a leak. It was covered under warranty, so I said go ahead. That was a VERY COSTLY warranty part for me. The initial cost was $100 deductable, and the warranty covered the rest. The dealer did the work and I got the car back the day before a trip to Norwalk Ohio. A simple road trip to see the inaugural NHRA event at the track. Special tickets at over $300 each. We drive to Norwalk. Enjoy day 1. End of day one, I'm losing tranny fluid in the parking lot like I've never seen before. At least a quart in under 15 minutes time. I look under the hood, trany fluid everywhere, and it shooting out of the new rad. In the morning, I stop by a local Norwalk Dealer (Baumann Pontiac Cadillac GMC 4683 US Highway 250 N Norwalk, OH 44857 -- These guys are TOPS IN CUSTOMER SERVICE!!!) since this is a warranty part. The rad is not the problem. The other goofs cross-threaded the trans line into the new rad and tried to fix it by gunking it up with some white thread sealant. A bogus repair if I ever heard of one! So the guys at Baumann have to run to another dealer go get a replacement for the galled up fitting. Here goes 2 hours waiting, and it'll be at least 30 mins labor. After a long wait, the service manager comes out to tell me the fitting has been fixed. My cost for this repair? The cost of the fitting, dealer cost, nothing more. Baumann doesn't want to have people have a bad experience when they're in town for events. Thank You Baumann!! Like I said, these guys are tops in my book.

OK, so I've missed half a day of racing, but luckily it's early and it was more pit time I lost than anything else. So how does this get more expensive? Well, this all stemmed from a state inspection...and the wheels were removed to check the brakes. You'd think a dealer would know how to bolt wheels onto a car. These guys didn't. They didn't torque the wheels. Now the cost rises to replace 4 rotors, and 4 sets of brake pads. A $250 bill I hadn't planned on. All in all, a ton of aggrivation, lost time at the track on an expensive ticket, cost of a new fitting, and new pads and rotors all around. So my simple repair ended up costing me because of dealer incompetence. I'll never go back to North Star again.

Baumann Pontiac in Norwalk, I'll go there anytime. Customer service and satisfaction was at the top of their list. The tech diagnosed the problem pretty quickly; presented me the facts of what was done improperly; they used some gas and time to go get my part I needed (a dealer only fitting); and repaired the car with the goal in mind to get me to the track to continue to enjoy my vacation. They could have soaked me for this, they knew I was from out of town...but they didn't. I was treated with respect and they cared about my experience, not the bottom line $. Now these guys are good! If you're in the area, stop in and see them. A nice group of people.

[serb]

Dan,

Great story. I am going to write their name down and hope I do not need their services. As you know, I get to Ohio on a regular basis but not to Norwalk too often, but you never know.

stevo

[64BuickCat]

It starts well before service. In 2001, I wanted to buy a 2002 GMC Truck. I worked for a supplier to GM, so I was entitled to a "supplier discount." I went to Duplessis Pontiac-GMC on the way to work with a print out from the GMC website where I "built" the truck. I wanted the drive it off of the lot price. After being passed around from manager to manager, I was told "That price comes out of Flint, and we can't get it." OK, so I went to Capitol GMC a few days later and spoke to the sales manager for the same thing. Twenty minutes later, I had the price.

The older I get, the less patience I have for the ol' run around and the BS it encompasses.

[Guest simplyconnected]

In fairness, dealers are NOT obligated to participate in 'A-Plan' (Ford employee discounts) because the dealer is a separate company, a franchise, even though Ford cuts them a separate check to cover their commission. Dealers may sell a car for whatever they can get, sometimes over sticker. GM dealerships probably have the same agreement.

For the dealer, selling another unit, adds to his monthly quota numbers. The more new cars he sells each month, the cheaper they become, from Ford Motor. So, why not sell a few 'A-plan' cars?

'A-Plan' is 3% below dealer cost. Dealers jealously watch the plan like a hawk. If an employee tries to sneak one to his buddy, the FIRST one to turn his A$$ in, is the salesman. Penalty from Ford is, pay back the discount, add taxes, and the employee is kicked off the plan.

All our plants have 'A-Plan' books, and employees know exactly how much a car costs before we get to the dealership. Price is NOT negotiable, and strictly enforced. I have shown my birth certificate, along with my sister's, to get her a new Ford, (just to prove we are related). The dealer may NOT 'throw-in' any extras (like mats), as that is a violation of the plan.

[NTX5467]

I, too, know that some dealers (just as private shops) can be good or bad. Finding the good ones sometimes takes a little while, unfortunately. I've seen some "horror stories" over the years and know they can and do happen . . . which we tried to fix correctly and make things as right as we could in the process--even using "goodwill" to help buy-down the cost to the customer. When I was on the front parts counter, when I'd pick up the phone and it was a customer (I consider "a customer" to be ANYBODY that has a GM vehicle, as it is a GM store, whether we sold it or not!) who had had a bad experience at another dealership or whatever, everything else around me stopped as I dealt with that customer's questions and concerns and possibly explained how the prior situation happened and what it would take to fix it.

If it had to do with a vehicle problem, I'd ask who the salesperson was and put them back together (in some cases, they'd shopped us and bought the vehicle elsewhere) to get things figured out. In some cases, they'd ended up with a vehicle which did not have the correct equipment to do what they were using it for (as in a really steep, although "standard", highway-gear rear axle ratio rather than something "optional" with a ratio just low enough to keep the trans from kicking in and out of OD just driving down the highway), which indicated that the dealership's operative who ordered vehicles might be clueless of the problems they were creating (including whether the customer would buy another vehicle of the same brand again!).

As for the "Option 1" or whatever factory employee pricing, some dealers just don't want to deal with that stuff. It's really pretty painless for them and they still make money, but some put more emphasis on higher profit margins than getting vehicles one the road. Sometimes, the factory or factory-related people will not let the salesperson know of their status until they are ready to do the paperwork, which can cause problems in that area. In this area, things work best when everybody knows up front that it will be a factory employee (or similar "option") sale rather than a normal consumer sale. As we are in the same metro area as the Arlington, TX assmebly plant, we welcome that business for new vehicle sales.

On the parts side of things, some of these people have come in and wanted parts lists for things and wanted us to spend the time to look everything up so they could go order it direct. In reality, they have that capability through their plant connections and don't need us to do that at all. Or they want (even expect) us to sell them the parts for factory cost (we'll make them a wholesale price or possibly dealership employee price deal, but we have to cover costs on our side of things with no "Option" deal on the parts side of things as there is on the new vehicle purchase side of things). We'll work with them as well as we can, but there are lots of stories of GM plant people and their expectations at the regional GM dealership parts departments. Some of the plant employees are great to deal with and would rather deal with somebody they can see and talk to rather than somebody at the other end of a phone and others can be otherwise.

As with ANY transaction, it needs to be mutually beneficial for the customer and seller, with the seller bending a little on the price side of things for a good customer who also becomes a repeat customer and friend.

It's great that Baumann took ownership of the prior dealership's indiscretions and fixed them and tried to make things as right as they could. That is a great orientation--period! Unfortunately, there can be flaky techs at some dealerships (and resultant poor supervision of new employees) just as there can be at private shops. A satisfied customer might not tell as many people of their good experience as a dissatisfied customer might of their "bad" experience, but a little bit of "over and above" customer service (as Baumann did) is some of the best advertising that any dealership can invest in--hands down.

An even better deal would have been if Baumann's service manager had called the other dealership's owner and told them of the poor experience/repair which they had to fix and how it inconvenienced the vehcile's owner. A little peer pressure might have been appropriate, plus documenting it for the GM Service Rep to see.

To me, the local franchise dealership is the local/regional "rep" of the manufacturer. The customer has generally higher expectations of the work the dealership can perform (facilities, tools, etc.) and the knowledge base of the employees there (as compared to an outside shop which works on "everything"). Unfortunately, many dealership employees don't see that relationship OR understand the importance therein. They don't see the fortunes of the franchiser as hanging in the balance upon the quality of work they perform or activities they might engage in in addressing the customer's needs/concerns. A bad experience can send the customer to another dealership AND another brand of vehicle in a heartbeat--IF so motivated--whether the sub-optimal experience was in the parts, sales, or service areas of the dealership. If the customer later realizes that what they received was better service from the dealer they got mad at, after experiencing what another dealership's operatives didn't do for them, then they realize they were better taken care of than they originally suspected (as they return to the first dealership with a better understanding of some things)

Therefore, what happens at the dealership level of things TODAY can pay dividends (or otherwise) in the financial futures of the franchisers long after the dealership employee has spent the money they might have made on a particular customer transaction. Unfortunately, by my own observations, the vehicle dealership/repair industry has a high tolerance for mediocrity. Some will become good enough to reach levels of higher achievement but not take the extra steps to rise above that level--"comfortable mediocrity", if you will--"good enough" to be recognized as "good", but not as good as they could be.

I hope EVERYBODY has a great weekend!

NTX5467

[Guest Reatta1]

Ok gents. here is the RO for my Park Avenue. You can look it over and decide for yourselves whether I got a "fair' deal. Personally I think I was overcharged a bit. I've been trying to attach a scanned copy but it won't attach so I'm just going to type it in. I will bold the item that I know I got ripped on.

labor and parts

J# 1 07cvz fuel system HOURS: 2.50 TECH(S): 742 215.00

C/S that vehicle has had bad fuel dispersed into vehicle

and feels there is water in the fuel.

Need to drain and refill tank, flush lines,replace

fuel filter and flush injectors.

Drain and flushed complete fuel system, replaced fuel

filter and flushed injectors.

Parts---qty--fp-number-----description----unit price

Job#1 1 251212293 fuel filter 3.890 18.69 18.69

Job#1 total parts 18.69

Job#1 total labor & parts 233.69

---------------------------------------------------------

J# 2+01CVZA fuel injector service

hours: 1:00 tech(s):742

68.82

service fuel injectors

maintenance cleaning

presurize cleaning of fuel injectors

Parts---qty--fp-number------description----unit price

Job#2 1 9300 Z-CLEAN 40.24 40.24

Job#2 total parts 40.24

Job#2 total labor & parts 109.06

--------------------------------------------------------

G.O.G. & supplies

Job#1 <span style="font-weight: bold">5.1 pacific pride gas/di @ 4.500 /unit 22.95 </span> total - gog 22.95

misc----code----description----------control no-------

Job#A hw shop supplies 5.34

Job#1 2 adjusted discount )parts) -9.11

total misc. -3.77

estimate-----------------------------------------------

customer hereby acknowledges recieving

original estimate of $200.00 (+tax)

approved revised estimate (#1) of 350.00 (+tax)

on 05/05/08 at 12:03 pm]

by Jim & Carole Stagl comments customer approved

repairs

approved revised estimate (#2) of $361.93 (+tax)

on 05/05/08 at 2:40 pm

by Jim & Carole Stagl comments

comments------------------------------------------------

tow company left lights on battery is drained

There is an additiona page with a recap of the charges and listing the total of $361.93 Now mind you, they buy that gas from Pacific Pride, a gas wholesaler to businesses, at a disacounted price from what the general public pays at the gas station, which on that day was $3.599 a gallon. The last I knew the discount was in the nieghborhood of 20%, which would make their cost under 3 bucks. In my book, that is a RIP OFF!!!!

[Guest Reatta1]

Simplyconnected,

The gas I keep in a barrel is real regular gas. No ethanol blended in. It is specifically so that I don't put blended fuel into my mower and other small engined yard equipment. I have had that barrel for over a year and it gets treated with stabilizer to keep it from going bad. I just f@#*+d up and let it get rain water standing on the top which seeped through the bungs. Once I get the water purged from it, it will go into the shop where it can't get water on it again. The big challenge now will be to find non blended gas to use in my boat.

[Guest simplyconnected]

Don't we all cherish our classic cars? How about the guys who do a total restoration, doesn't that car represent an intimate part of them? I know assemblers who put a 'special mark' in an obscure place, so they can tell it is a car they proudly worked on.<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NTX5467</div><div class="ubbcode-body">... As we are in the same metro area as the Arlington, TX assmebly plant, we welcome that business for new vehicle sales.</div></div> GM-Arlington Assembly spreads over 3.75 MILLION square feet, and employs over 2,300 workers, each are elegible for four employee discounts per year for their families (a contracted GM-UAW benefit as part of their wages). Here is a golden opportunity to make happy customers. Advertise your dealership in the UAW Local 276 magazine.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NTX5467</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...Or they want (even expect) us to sell them the parts for factory cost (we'll make them a wholesale price or possibly dealership employee price deal...</div></div> The best I can get is 10% employee discount, and only at a few dealerships around Detroit. One time I was standing in line behind this guy, he was decked-out in black leathers and chains, tattoos, do-rag, etc. When he got his parts, he announced he was from, "The Outlaws M/C Club." That dealer gave him 40% off. What do you think I said when it was my turn? "I'm with HIM."

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NTX5467</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...Some of the plant employees are great to deal with... </div></div> Just in 2006, these guys at GM-Arlington assembled:

116,682 Chevrolet Tahoe's,

45,996 Cadillac Escalade's,

33,145 GMC Yukon's,

19,144 Cadillac Escalade ESV's,

9,924 GMC Yukon XL's, and

8,601 Chevrolet Suburban's.

That works out to 101.5 vehicles per employee. Sound easy? That's two per week. (The numbers, for one year, are hard to comprehend, even for a dealership.) GM employees have a deep-seated love for the cars they proudly build, and their highest goal is to purchase one they just built.

Who understands these vehicles better than these assemblers? They get MAD when they go to a GM dealership, and the service department is filled with mechanics and techs that just got hired from the Chrysler or Toyota dealership down the road. The Sales Dept., is profoundly worse.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NTX5467</div><div class="ubbcode-body">... To me, the local franchise dealership is the local/regional "rep" of the manufacturer. The customer has generally higher expectations of the work the dealership can perform (facilities, tools, etc.) and the knowledge base of the employees there (as compared to an outside shop which works on "everything"). </div></div> GM trains your mechanics every year, on new vehicles and procedures. GM customers depend on, and trust your dealership will do right by them and their car. All too often, that intrinsic trust is breached by ignorant or money-grabbing shysters. The BIG PICTURE is really huge!

Less than five percent of any workforce's performance is 'outstanding.' Mechanics and tech's are no exception. A dealership is an excellent place for 'the cream-of-the-crop' to learn the business, get good at it, and strike-out on their own. THIS is where many independent garages and Speed Shops come from. With training from the 'big three,' they specialize, cutting through all the BS, getting paid very well, and they have very satisfied customers. Usually, they are swamped with work. Bottom line, understand the relationship owners have with their car rather than treating it like a 'unit' or just a number hanging on the mirror tag. An honest, more-than-fair, dealership can't help but flurish, because word-of-mouth spreads very fast, especially with these numbers.

[Guest simplyconnected]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 'Reatta1'</div><div class="ubbcode-body">labor and parts

Job#1 07cvz--fuel system HOURS: 2.50------------ 215.00

Drain and flushed complete fuel system, replaced fuel

filter and flushed injectors.

Parts---qty--fp-number-----description----unit price

Job#1----1---251212293---fuel filter 3.890---------- 18.69

Job#1 --------------------------total labor & parts--- 233.69

-------------------------------------------------------

Job#2 +01CVZA fuel injector service

---hours: 1:00------------------------------------------- 68.82

---service fuel injectors, maintenance cleaning,

---presurize cleaning of fuel injectors

Parts---qty--fp-number------description----unit price

Job#2--- 1--- 9300------------ Z-CLEAN--------------- 40.24

Job#2-------------------------- total labor & parts--- 109.06

-------------------------------------------------------

G.O.G. & supplies

Job#1 <span style="font-weight: bold">5.1 pacific pride gas/di @ 4.500 /unit 22.95 </span> total - gog 22.95

misc----code----description----------control no-------

Job#A---- hw---- shop supplies-------------------------- 5.34

Job#1---- 2----- adjusted discount )parts)------------ -9.11

-----------------------------------------total misc.------- -3.77

comments------------------------------------------------

tow company left lights on battery is drained!!</div></div> Well, it appears they did not drop the tank and flush it, but rather, they did it in place... (just an educated guess). I don't know what z-clean is, but it's WAY too expensive at $40... (drygas works just fine and cleans injectors). They could have used the fuel pump to do the flushing, without turning the starter. That shouldn't have taken more than .5 hr. A Delco filter is $5, not $18.69. I wouldn't worry too much about paying $2.50 extra for gas. If someone had looked at your car sooner, your batt wouldn't be run down. Did you get ripped? An independent would have charged you about $100 less. Nothing here is very technical or requires any special skills. It's just water, C'mon.

Don't be afraid to use fresh gas with 10% ethynol. It pulls water out of your tank, and cleans injectors. It may not run the best, but after you refill, your engine will really show a big difference. I do a tank, twice each year because of my Detroit winters. I also use gasohol 10% in my generator and lawn mower. They are both so low compression ratio, you can't tell any difference. Instead of buying sta-bil, I cycle my gas. Before it gets nine months old, I empty my cans into my driver, and refill at the pump, keeping it fresh. - Dave Dare