Peerless Records??

[Kevin_S]

Hi all,

I'm new to this group, and have recently become interested in Peerless as I am doing research on my great-grandfather who was a chauffeur and in two photographs looks like he is driving a 1909 Peerless.

I am having trouble finding much information on Peerless, and have checked out http://www.peerlessmotorcar.com/history.htm and am trying to hunt down the Auto Quarterly article. So I am happy to stumble across this groups which has so many interested people.

I was wondering two things:

1) Is there a way I could post my image to this groups so I could verify my great-grandfather drove a Peerless

2) Does anyone know if an archive of primary source Peerless material exist in any library/museum/archive, etc. Wat happened to all their business records. correspondence, etc? I am an exhibition developer with a history background and would love to work on something about Peerless (I read with great interest the other post about the fact that there is no Peerless dedicated books), and have begun seeing if there are Grants for writing such a book, or some other project.

Any info would be great, thanks,

Kevin

[Kevin_S]

Think I figured out how to add an image:

[Kevin_S]

Sorry, keep forgetting I do have some more pieces to the puzzle. My great grandfather, who is in the drivers seat, drove for the FJ Logan and Family of Brooklyn, I assume the man in the passenger seat is FJ.

In a New York Times Article dated July, 31, 1910 in the society pages it says FJ Logan arrived at the Equinox House in VT in a Peerless 40....funny how back then they announced the type of car!

Thanks again for your indulgence.

Kevin

[jeff_a]

Dear Kevin,

Thank you for dropping-in at the Peerless Forum! It's interesting to see the picture and hear that there might be a family connection as well as an interest in the cars themselves.

It's not unusual at all to learn that Mr. Logan was announced both by name and by make of car in his 1909 Peerless when you consider how much they cost then. Richard Wager's "Golden Wheels" describes Peerless as the most expensive gasoline-powered auto built in America in 1909. I did a sketch of a 1909 Peerless Berline for a Peerless owner in Florida a couple of weeks ago. This drawing showed a 4-cyl., 30 h.p. car that cost $6,200 [ there was a more expensive 6-cyl.model ]. To give an idea how much money this was...you could still buy a new Cadillac for less than that fifty years later, NOT adjusting for the value of the dollar!

Under the heading "Peerless Photos", you should be able to read something about one of 3 Peerlesses for sale by Collins Bros. Jeep in Texas. Their 1909 Peerless Mod. 19 "Roi des Belges" touring car bears some resemblance to the one in your photo. ----Jeff

[jeff_a]

Kevin,

I've heard from the Club President that he was in Cleveland looking at a wealth of data about Peerless about a month ago. Richard says that he spent several days there gathering info for an update of a Peerless history he originally wrote ten years ago. He was at the Cleveland Public Library and the Crawford Auto-Aviation Museum.

I was looking at pages 1159-1166 of the Standard Catalog of American Cars, 1805-1942, VOL. I*, and it says that 1909 Peerlesses offered were a Mod. 19 ( 4-cyl., 30 h.p., $4300-5800 ) and a Mod. 25 ( 6-cyl., 50 h.p., $6000-7000 ). No 40 h.p. models listed, but I've found omissions in this book before. --Jeff

* this has a listing of Peerless models from 1900-1931, with 36 photos

[Kevin_S]

Hi Jeff,

Thank you for the replies. I did take a look at the 1909 Model 19 that didn't sell. There are great pics at:

http://www.conceptcarz.com/vehicle/default.aspx?carID=14611&eventID=187&catID=1435&whichpage=1

I have another view of the car my g'grandfather drove, (which I don’t have scanned) and besides the missing Peerless script on the grill, its spot on. What an amazing, huge car, and envisioning my g'grandfather driving it from Brooklyn to Vermont is impressive.

If you could pass along my info to Richard, it would be appreciated, I’d be interested in reading his update, or even helping out.

I can see the point of Bryan Moran’s comments in a different post: “It would be a major undertaking for many reasons, not the least of which is time since they were last made, a prospective publishers reticence at underwriting such a book, what with limited possible purchasers, getting the facts straight (there are as many Peerless tales as their are facts) getting adequate photos (you can only paint so good a "picture" with words - people want to see the CARS)”

To the point of ‘limited purchasers” it may be more sellable, and interesting, to frame an assessment of the Peerless in context (popular culture, advertising, wealth, early automobility, technology, Cleveland?) so that it may have a broader appeal.

I also wonder if there are alternative publishing avenues that may be more receptive? Perhaps the Society of Automobile Historians could assist?

Anyway, I am sure I am preaching to the choir, and I am also sure you all have been down these roads before, so feel free to slap the wrist of a newbie.

Kevin

[jeff_a]

Kevin,

I talked to the Peerless Motor Car Club President, Richard Lichtfeld, on the phone a couple of hours ago and mentioned that you had an interesting photo posted here on the Peerless Forum. He said he would look at it.

If interested in joining the Peerless Motor Car Club, it's $20.00 U.S. and $30.00 Foreign. The Club's website at: www.peerlessmotorcar.com has info on dues. Mailing address of Club: The PEERLESS MOTOR CAR CLUB, Inc., 5001 Femrite Drive, Madison, WI 53716. Members receive a newsletter six to ten times a year which is usually four to twelve pages. The first installment of Mr. Lichtfeld's Peerless History came out in January, covered 1865-1905, and was 30 pgs.

I agree with you and Bryan Moran that the publishing of a book about Peerless would be a benefit to the marque, current and future owners of Peerlesses, and the cars themselves. I have written an outline for such a book, and have been cataloging surviving cars for some time. I do think that it's a worthwhile project -- plus, the subject hasn't been done to death. As another Peerless Club Member, Philippe Mordant, has pointed out, "You can't have The 3 P's of Premium Motoring without Peerless."

The outline I drew up is pretty straightforward, but one could go about it a different way, as you said. In addition to writing about Peerless in the context of the 1910's or 1920's, it would be neat to show that there are things about Peerless cars that relate to more recent vehicles. Open up the book with a transcript of a television interview at a typical car show:

Have the reporter, who's secretly a Peerless fanatic, go up to the owner of a 1960's car and ask "Have you ever heard of a Peerless?"

Owner says "No."

TV Guy says "They were built in Cleveland for 32 years and were big innovators in the car business". TV Guy asks if he can put Post-it Notes on parts of his car that Peerless either pioneered, helped pioneer, or patented.

Owner says "Yes.", expecting either no notes stuck on his car, or maybe one for something trivial like two-tone paint.

TV Guy quickly puts Post-its all over the place. Here are some he could place:

1. Hood - Pioneering placement of motor up front, instead of under the seat (1902)

2. Driveshaft - Pioneering use of shaft drive from front-engine to rear axle (1902)

3. Differential - Pioneering use of bevel-gear differential (1902)

4. Universal Joint - Pioneering use (1902)

5. Frame - Pioneering use of channel steel frame (1902)

6. 4-Speed Transmission - First used on Green Dragon race cars and Patented (about 1904)

7. Accellerator Pedal - Pioneering use on passenger cars (1904)

8. Some Aluminum Part of the 60's Car - Helped pioneer use of aluminum in body and motor to save weight (1900)

9. Carburetor - Helped pioneer 4-barrel carburetor (Dual Power Range Eight in 1917)

10. V-8 - Helped pioneer V-8's in America (1916)

11. Really Big Engine - Helped pioneer use of big engines. No matter what kind of 60's car this is...it doesn't have a bigger motor than a Model 37 Peerless: 825 cubic inches. (1912-1914)

At this point Owner asks TV Guy if he's done with the Post-it Notes yet.

Obviously, this interview hasn't happened, but it might be a way to start a discussion with someone about Peerless cars, or introduce a book for a mass audience! --Jeff

[Kevin_S]

Hi Jeff,

I have three images of the cars that were owned by the Logans, one of which came from my grandmother, and

two of which came from a Logan descendant I have been in touch with. Two images clearly show my g'grandfather at the wheel, and one has a driver but it is too hard to tell. The image I posted above is from the Logan descendant and is clearly my relative driving. The other two I will try to post later.

I looked at each one very closely, and at the images of the 09 and am finding small descepencies in each.

CAR 1 (not pictured, but my g'grandfather at the wheel)

1) Front and rear fenders do not wrap down, they terminate horizontal to the ground

2) Square cowl lights

3) Right Hand drive

4) Rear step into back seat has interesting curve to it

5) 10 spoke wheels

6) louvered hood

Differences compared to the one for sale:

1) I can't see if the Peerless script is on the grill of my photograph

2) Headlights are different (look larger in my photograph)

Car 2 (as pictured above, my relative at the wheel)

1)Same in most respects as Car 1, including some initials painted on a door

Differences from Car 1:

1) Front fender is curved down in the front

2) no hood strap

Differences compared to the one for sale:

1) Front fender is curved down in the front

2)running board has a canvas storage sack, not a metal box

3) no canisters on the left running board

4) square tail light

Car 3 not pictured, unidentified man at wheel)

It is definitely a Peerless, as the brass plate is in an identical location and size as the Peerless for sale.

Also

Similar to car 1

1) Front and rear fenders do not wrap down, they terminate horizontal to the ground

2) Almost everything else

Different to Car 1 & 2

1) the cowl lights are round, trumpet style

2) hard to see, but look like smaller headlights

Similar to car for sale:

1) Headlights and taillight

2) running board boxes and canisters

The difference in lights could have taken place over time, but the for the chronology to work the fenders would have been flat, then round, then flat, so perhaps I am looking at two cars.

With this information in hand I got in touch with the seller of the 09. We shared some correspondence and discovers that his 09's earliest known registration was in 1938 in a town not 20 minutes from where the Logans and my g'grandfather lived. We can only assume that his car, and the car in image 3 are in fact the same one.

This has been an incredibly fun research project!

[jeff_a]

Kevin,

Here is what the Club President had to say about the photo you have posted:

"I looked on the AACA forum and the picture of the Peerless...from the gentleman whose grandfather is the chauffer. The car is a 1909 Peerless but not a model 40. Peerless didn't make a model 40. It is either a 4 cylinder model 19 or a 6 cylinder model 25. The horn on the left threw me off but it must have been added. Originally the carbide unit was mounted there and the horn was mounted on the drivers side."

That would be amazing if that car for sale in Texas is the same one your grandfather used to drive. The 1909 Peerless in Texas has gotten quite a bit of publicity lately, and was written about in the Horseless Carriage Gazette back in the early 90's. One note on the numbers of spokes: at that time a lot of cars had 12-spoke wheels on the back and 10-spoke wheels on the front.

[carbking]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jeff_a</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Kevin,

I talked to the Peerless Motor Car Club President, Richard Lichtfeld, on the phone a couple of hours ago and mentioned that you had an interesting photo posted here on the Peerless Forum. He said he would look at it.

If interested in joining the Peerless Motor Car Club, it's $20.00 U.S. and $30.00 Foreign. The Club's website at: www.peerlessmotorcar.com has info on dues. Mailing address of Club: The PEERLESS MOTOR CAR CLUB, Inc., 5001 Femrite Drive, Madison, WI 53716. Members receive a newsletter six to ten times a year which is usually four to twelve pages. The first installment of Mr. Lichtfeld's Peerless History came out in January, covered 1865-1905, and was 30 pgs.

I agree with you and Bryan Moran that the publishing of a book about Peerless would be a benefit to the marque, current and future owners of Peerlesses, and the cars themselves. I have written an outline for such a book, and have been cataloging surviving cars for some time. I do think that it's a worthwhile project -- plus, the subject hasn't been done to death. As another Peerless Club Member, Philippe Mordant, has pointed out, "You can't have The 3 P's of Premium Motoring without Peerless."

The outline I drew up is pretty straightforward, but one could go about it a different way, as you said. Open up the book with a transcript of a television interview at a car show:

Have the reporter, who's secretly a Peerless fanatic, go up to the owner of a 1960's car and ask if he's ever heard of a Peerless.

Owner says "No."

TV Guy says they were built in Cleveland for 32 years and were big innovators in the car business. TV Guy asks if he can put Post-it Notes on parts of his car that Peerless either pioneered, helped pioneer, or patented.

Owner says "Yes.", expecting either no notes stuck on his car, or maybe one for something trivial like two-tone paint.

TV Guy quickly puts Post-its all over the place. Here are some he could place:

1. Hood - Pioneering placement of motor up front, instead of under the seat (1902)

2. Driveshaft - Pioneering use of shaft drive from front-engine to rear axle (1902)

3. Differential - Pioneering use of bevel-gear differential (1902)

4. Universal Joint - Pioneering use (1902)

5. Frame - Channel steel frame (1902)

6. 4-Speed Transmission - First used on Green Dragon race cars and Patented (about 1904)

7. Accellerator Pedal - Pioneering use on passenger cars (1904)

8. Some Aluminum Part of the 60's Car - Helped pioneer use of aluminum in body and motor to save weight (1900)

9. Carburetor - Helped pioneer 4-barrel carburetor (Dual Power Range Eight in 1917)

10. V-8 - Helped pioneer V-8's in America (1916)

11. Really Big Engine - Helped pioneer use of big engines. No matter what kind of 60's car this is...it doesn't have a bigger motor than a Model 37 Peerless: 825 cubic inches. (1912-1914)

At this point Owner asks TV Guy if he's done with the Post-it Notes yet.

Obviously, this interview hasn't happened, but it might be a way to start a discussion with someone about Peerless cars, or introduce a book for a mass audience! --Jeff

</div></div>

Jeff - would you mind elaborating on item 9 "helped pioneer 4-barrel carburetor"?

Thank you.

Jon.

[jeff_a]

Jon,

In February, 2007, this ad was on the online version of Hemmings Motor News with a color photo of the car:

"1920 Peerless Model 56 Cloverleaf Roadster. Powerful V-8, 4-Barrel, dual exhaust ( all original equipment ). Just 17,957 mi.showing. Best Nickel Era car -- rare, lots of aluminum & brass. The original muscle car! Nice top, leather, new tires, new nickel, ( and impressive ) engine. The 340 cubic inch, 80 h.p. engine runs flawlessly. Fuel is delivered to the Ball & Ball quadra-jet updraft carburetor with mechanical secondaries through the original and perfectly functioning vacuum tank. ..."

There's another description of the carburetor on the Peerless Club site, under "History", pg. 2, located at: www.peerlessmotorcar.com .

Thanks for inquiring about Peerless! I've never had the pleasure of seeing a V-8 Peerless, but they made them from 1916 to 1928. ----Jeff

[carbking]

Jeff - one of the features of the Penberthy carburetor was an airvalve, also was a feature on many of the early carburetors (i.e. Schebler). Since there were two air sources, the one-barrel carb was often referred to as a 2-barrel. Possibly the 4-barrel referred to is similiarly a 2-barrel with multiple air intakes?

Do you know of anyone with a illustrated parts book or owners manual, etc. that would have a picture of the carburetor?

Jon.

[jeff_a]

JON,

Offhand, I don't know where any books are with illustrations & details of the 1917-1920 Ball & Ball Carburetor used on Peerless cars. Richard Lichtfeld from the Peerless Club has just reprinted an early Peerless V-8 Manual and has it for sale...but I don't know if it is for the first series V-8 in '16, or for a later one. The "Two-Power-Range Eight" with the carburetor you're interested in was added about 1917.

Maybe you'll see a Peerless V-8 at a car show or museum sometime. I think there are two or three dozen left in the world. Four were for sale in 2007: one at the November Amelia Island Auction and three in Hemmings. --Jeff

[carbking]

Jeff - I have been in touch with Richard, and he is sending some information.

Jon.

[jeff_a]

Kevin,

I found an illustration of a 1909 Peerless on the NYPLDigitalGallery you might want to look at. It shows a profile shot of very nearly the same car as Mr. Logan's, but is from a sales catalog and is a pen-and-ink drawing rather than a photo. Pictured is the left side of a car in front of a brick house with ten people milling around the car. Digital ID: 1163177.

[Kevin_S]

Hi Jeff,

I just came across the three 1909 sales brochures at NYPL yesterday, definitely confirming that the vehicles I have pictures of are a Peerless Model 19.

I've checked NYPL before, these must have just gone online.

The images 1163180 and 1163773 are clearly the same car as the image that my grandmother gave me (which I haven't yet shared here, I'll digitize and do so soon.)

Any sales records on how many Model 19's we built?

K

[Richard Lichtfel]

Peerless fans. I have just learned how to use this forum and will try to answer your questions on Peerless. I got my first Peerless in 1952 and restored it when I was in high school. (1916 V-8 touring)I have since acquired three more. I have been collecting Peerless liturature for the past 50 years and I am putting it all together and will publish it next year. All the original factory records have been lost so it has been very time consuming to gather the information. I still have several area's that I am researching. The production figures are very confusing, in the early years they used total production from year one. They never listed production of each model. Then in the teens production numbers included trucks. There have been several articles written about Peerless but none are complete and many are not accurate, that is why I want the most complete and accurate history of the Peerless Company.