Sought-After Cars 40 Years From Now

[jeff_a]

I was reading some posts on the "Hershey Pictures" thread today, and wondering about some 70's and 80's cars that used to be really common but seem to be almost all gone now. Does anyone think some of these will be sought-after in 40 years? I've noticed a real lack of the following vehicles on the road these days:

Early-70's Datsun economy cars & trucks, Pintos, Vegas, '74 Mustang II's, Conversion Vans, Monte Carlos, Buick Electra 225's, Mercury Capris and Renault LeCars, Alliances and Fuegos.

Granted, these would seem to a lot of us as cars of low collector value now ( some of the models, anyway ). There used to be a LOT of them around, and I'm just not seeing them on the road much. Maybe these dozen or so models I've listed wouldn't attract much attention nowadays...but just imagine showing up at a Sonic Drive-In in 2048 with all 12! They might be million-dollar cars, then. -Jeff

[Guest Bluesky636]

Ummmm, there is a reason you don't see many of them around anymore. They are JUNK and have all gone to that great scrap yard in the sky.

Vegas? In the past 6 years I have seen about one regular Vega and two Cosworth Vegas. Even the restorations are rusting away. My wife had a 72 Vega when we got married. I was poking at a bubble on the cowl one day and put my fist through it. Engine was replaced and the transmission was screwed up. We traded it in on a new 1978 Plymouth Arrow. I would have paid someone to take that Vega away.

Pintos? Most of them burned to the ground. My parents had a 1975. They were rear ended but amazingly it did not explode.

Mustang IIs? There is a small following of them. I know of one that has been sitting rusting for the last 10 years (at least). Its probably gone by now. I actually wanted a King Cobra when they were new. Bought a 1976 Toyota Celica instead.

Renault Alliance? My father bought one after my mother died. When he died, my brother tried to donate the car to charity and was refused. LOL

Conversion vans and Monte Carlos? Ah, the golden age of excess velor. I don't have enough hair anymore for a mullet. Though I did look good back then!

I do wish I still had my 1978 280Z, though.

[old gto]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bill_Haegele</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ummmm, there is a reason you don't see many of them around anymore. They are JUNK and have all gone to that great scrap yard in the sky.</div></div>

<span style="color: #3333FF">I tend to agree. Many of those were the first of what we used to call "Throw away cars"....like a used Bic lighter. Cheap to build, cheap to buy, but too expensive to fix. Use them until they break, then junk them and get another.I had a Vega, and a Pinto. Cute little things for running around town. But life expectancy on salty Michigan roads was about 3 years, tops, before the fenders fell off.</span>

[Guest Bluesky636]

My wife and I drove her Vega to Florida on our honeymoon in 1976. The car had two good front tires, two snow tires on the rear, and a near bald spare tire. On the way down, in the middle of Georgia, one of the snow tires threw a big chunk of tread, forcing me to replace it with the balding spare. Funny thing, though, I noticed no difference in the ride and handling of the car with 3 different tire types on it.

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> They might be million-dollar cars, then. </div></div>

Definitely if they all have full gas tanks!

My list of cars from this class that have potential:

1. Honda Civic CVCC

2. Vanguard/Sebring Citicar

3. AMC Gremlin

4. Subaru BRAT

5. Mercury/Ford (German-built) Capri

6. Toyota Celica

7. Fiat X1/9

8. Volvo P1800 Sportwagon

9. Triumph Spitfire/MG Midget

10. Opel Manta

11. VW Rabbit convertible

12. Renault Alliance convertible

None of these are worth much more than $5-6K mint right now. Most are interesting for reasons beyond styling, which isn't a major plus for any car in this era. I'd be willing to bet 40 years from now some of these cars are going to be as valued as the obvious Cutlass Supremes and Triumph TR6s from the same years.

[Guest elmo39]

was'nt that what the model T's and model A's were mass produced cars for the mass's, produced in there thousands if not millions

[ex98thdrill]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ummmm, there is a reason you don't see many of them around anymore. They are JUNK and have all gone to that great scrap yard in the sky.</div></div>It isn't just the cars that were listed. <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">THEY WERE <span style="text-decoration: underline">ALL</span> JUNK BACK THEN</span></span>. We've got three Mustang II's, two Dodge 'Lil Red Express trucks, and a late 70's Bronco. I'm not sticking up for what I've got, but quality in the 70's when it pertained to american built cars was virtually non existent.

With low quality, emissions standards now in place, and recycled metal that rusted in the showroom. The junk wasn't just Pintos, Vegas, Mustang II's, etc. My dad's best friend had (still has out behind his shop) a '74 Chevy Blazer. That truck had a 350 in it, it ran like a champ, but the truck was little more than 5 years old and it reguired duct tape to keep the parking lights from falling out of the front fenders, you could move the tail lights, and every time you closed the hood, a chunk of it would fall on the ground. My dad had a '77 Jeep J-10 that had rotted so bad by 1982 that you could see where the wires ran to the tail lights. I remember the way the quarter panels rotted out on the Chevelles, Camaros and Firebirds, the cab corners and hoods rotted off of the Ford pickups, and the back bumpers falling off many of the GM cars. Oh by the way, you still had the Matadors, Hornets, Omnis and Volares that were no prize either.

It wasn't just a select few of cars that were junk, it was the entire era. Fortunately, the Japanese started to kick our butts in quality which forced the american automakers to clean up their act and start building things better. Had it not been for the reliability of the Chevy 350's, Ford 302's and Mopar slant 6's, the american automaker may have put themselves into extinction back in the 70's. I think back then between the dope, leisure suits, and disco music, they had started to drop the ball .

Despite the 70's junk, like the Model 'A' they too are a part of American auto history. As bad as they were, I still like seeing one that is in nice shape. For someone to keep one running when they were new had their hands full back then. Today if you can manage to find the parts and restore one (other than a 70's vintage pickup), the restoration on one of those cars is tougher than restoring a Model 'A'

[charlier]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ex98thdrill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Today if you can manage to find the parts and restore one (other than a 70's vintage pickup), the restoration on one of those cars is tougher than restoring a Model 'A' </div></div>

I agree with you 1000% on this point. Many vehicles from the 1970s and 80s are getting VERY, VERY, VERY hard to find parts for.

Some of manufacturers still keep a few parts around but with each passing year they keep DESTROYING the parts they have left.

That, coupled with the fact that few, if any, of these parts are still made by the OEM suppliers means there are simply no sources for parts.

When I did my last restoration of a car from this era I spent 5-10 years tracking down parts.

I called countless dozens of dealers across the USA, spent many, many 1000s of hours looking for parts online, at swap meets and junkyards.

My next project is another vehicle from this era. I am currently into the 8th year of searching for parts for that vehicle.

FYI, Dave, you missed a vehicle for your list.

The Volkswagen Pickup (built from 1980-84) is another vehicle for the list.

It should be noted however it was not a very high volume vehicle.

BTW, models of this vehicle are going for $5-10K at the present time depending on condition.

Heck even rusted out pieces of junk that barely run are going for $2-3K.

[1937hd45]

If a sales brochure in "As New" condition is worth $1.00 - $3.00 on a really good day on eBay why in the world would you clutter your drive with the real thing. On adverage they bring $100.00 1-4 days before they run them through the shredder here in Sothern Connecticut. Why restore crap when there are so many better cars from other eras.

[Guest Leonard Shepherd]

I was surprised to see these cars at the car show at Hershey last fall.

[novaman]

The Pontiac Fiero has a preety good following so I'm sure althought they were only made for 4 years, you'll see some of them starting next year at AACA meets.

[Ron Green]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Leonard Shepherd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was surprised to see these cars at the car show at Hershey last fall. </div></div>

Don't be surprised if you see one of these this year.

[1937hd45]

Who was the first to restore the car/truck they bought new as a tow vehilce for the true vintage car they entered in an AACA National event, do they still have both vehicles?

[jeff_a]

What prompted me to wonder about these cars was visiting one of the biggest car museums in the country, the Pioneer Village Museum in Minden , Nebraska. The PVM has several hundred cars (1905-1975), with most of them falling into the late 20's to early 50's. I visited once about 1986 and then once again in 2006, and it looked like the only cars that had been added were a Pinto, a Vega and a Gremlin.

I wondered about those choices at first, but they are a part of automotive history. This museum is more about everyday vehicles than the high-end ones. While they have a Cord and a Rolls-Royce, they also have one of each year Chevrolet and Ford from 1920-1955, I think, plus a lot of steam and gas tractors.

The cars I listed are a little questionable for collecting now, and maybe even 40 years from now they won't be that great, compared to some others. They would be good to have for a film studio shooting movies set in the 70's & 80's, and we might be surprised by what people are interested in a long time from now.

My point is that they're getting to be so rare, they might start creeping up in value. I saw a Mustang II a couple of years ago at the high school shop and had to stop and look at it a few minutes. I hadn't seen one in years, and had to think back to the days when they were Motor Trend's Car of the Year, and were designed in response to high oil prices ( Remember those days? The President even lowered the speed limit to 55! ). I did see a Vega sell for over $500,000 while watching 2007 B-J Auction re-runs. It was a drag race Vega that had probably never been driven on the road.

Your coverage of the cars I listed was pretty thorough and I agree with you on some of the quality and design problems. I remember National Lampoon Magazine getting into the car review game and concluding that the Pinto was "Without a doubt the finest four wheel motorcycle in America." Still, I was a poor college student during much of the 70's and would have been happy to have one, if I could have afforded it.

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ron Green</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Leonard Shepherd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was surprised to see these cars at the car show at Hershey last fall. </div></div>

Don't be surprised if you see one of these this year.

</div></div>

That was #2 on my list.

[jeff_a]

A mechanic friend of mine, Ray Reed, was telling me about living through the Great Depression and how you shoppped for used cars. He said "You picked 'em by which one had the most gas in the tank!".

I like your choice of special-interest autos, especially the mid-engined X 1/9, the Gremlin, and the Spitfire -- although I have a bad memory of an 800-mi. mid-winter trip in a '68 Spitfire with no functioning heater. Did any of them have heaters that worked?

[Guest Stonefish]

Thanks Mr. Shepard for posting a picture of my car (Squareback). But I must say...it is sad to see it on a thread that contains comments like "crap" & "clutter".

Just an FYI...this particular car is an un-restored, original paint car with less than 18,000 miles on it. I guess, in some people's eyes, it should have gone to the shredder!? I can't wait to bring my 83 Rabbit onto the show field this year! Another un-restored, low mileage car.

These cars were disposable, no doubt about it. It makes them special, maybe not in the eyes of some folks here, but then again...things are relative to your generation and what you grew up with.

[Rusty_OToole]

My nomination for the only car of that era to deserve classic status:

Mercedes SL convertible, 1972 - 89. The last car to feature REAL chrome, REAL leather, REAL steel. Available in 6 cylinder or V8 form depending on year.

You can still buy one for less than a new Hyundai. Get the best one you can find, keep it maintained and you can enjoy it as a collector car for the rest of your life.

If you still regret missing out on that Duesenberg in 1958, 57 Tbird in 1968, or Hemi Daytona in 1978 this is your last chance to buy a real car before the collectors grab them all and the price goes thru the roof.

[TG57Roadmaster]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> A mechanic friend of mine, Ray Reed, was telling me about living through the Great Depression and how you shoppped for used cars. He said "You picked 'em by which one had the most gas in the tank!".

</div></div>

And when my friends in Atlanta started their Classic car collection in 1951, they once told me you bought a car then based on the tread and condition of the tires.

It's all relative to the times. My folks bought a Pinto new, a '71 in late-'70; my brother bought a new '74 Gremlin; I bought a new "Car of the Year" Alliance. The Renault was a fun, stylish little car. Having gone to high school in Kenosha, I have a soft spot for the Alliance convertibles, and one day will have one.

Go figure!

TG

[Guest Stonefish]

The Alliance was a great car...Renault had a few during that decade. Would love to find a nice Le Car!! Or my first car...a Datsun 310GX. They are all like hens teeth!

[Guest imported_DaveZZZ]

Just ask yourself this:

Of the various cars now coveted, whether by you or "the establishment," how many of those were dismissed a modern junk 10 - 20 years after they were produced? I can just imagine someone in 1955 lamenting that cars since the war were crap. I'll bet you plenty did.

One analogy is music: Every 60 year old thinks the stuff played today is noise (or even offensive), while conveniently forgetting that thier parents said the same thing.

Elvis? Stravinsky? both downright scandalous in their day.

[Rusty_OToole]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DaveZZZ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just ask yourself this:

Of the various cars now coveted, whether by you or "the establishment," how many of those were dismissed a modern junk 10 - 20 years after they were produced? I can just imagine someone in 1955 lamenting that cars since the war were crap. I'll bet you plenty did.

One analogy is music: Every 60 year old thinks the stuff played today is noise (or even offensive), while conveniently forgetting that thier parents said the same thing.

Elvis? Stravinsky? both downright scandalous in their day. </div></div>

In the 50s there was a guy named Gottleib who did a classic car column for Motor Trend. In 1957 someone asked him what new cars would be the classics of 25 years hence?

His answer: None. For a start the great classics of the 20s and 30s were limited production hand made cars. No cars were made to that standard anymore, all were cheaply mass produced and therefore could never be considered "classics".

This led to the second point which was that a 1957 car could not be restored. The prewar classics were made of brass, steel, leather and being largely hand made,parts could be repaired or rebuilt by a skilled mechanic or at worst, recreated in a machine shop.

The cars of 1957 used die cast chrome that soon rotted and pitted and could not be replicated outside a factory. Fuel pumps made of tin swaged together that could not be take apart and rebuilt, upholstery made of vynil with designs pressed in with a 2 storey tall heat press, in short when the supply of parts ran out they would all be junk and impossible to restore.

Now let's see what "junkers" of 1957 he overlooked. Let's start with the easy ones, Bentley Continental, Facel Vega, Mercedes Gullwing, Jaguar XKS and a myriad of European sports cars.

In America there was the fuelie Corvette and its BelAir convertible and hardtop siblings. The 2 seater Thunderbird, Chrysler 300C, Lincoln Continental, Studebaker Golden Hawk supercharged V8, Cadillac Eldorado, in his view all mass produced junk doomed to the scrap pile by 1982.

[Guest Leonard Shepherd]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stonefish</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Thanks Mr. Shepard for posting a picture of my car (Squareback). But I must say...it is sad to see it on a thread that contains comments like "crap" & "clutter".

Just an FYI...this particular car is an un-restored, original paint car with less than 18,000 miles on it. I guess, in some people's eyes, it should have gone to the shredder!? I can't wait to bring my 83 Rabbit onto the show field this year! Another un-restored, low mileage car.

These cars were disposable, no doubt about it. It makes them special, maybe not in the eyes of some folks here, but then again...things are relative to your generation and what you grew up with. </div></div>

You're welcome. I used to have a 73 Squareback back in the late 70s.

[CarlLaFong]

although I have a bad memory of an 800-mi. mid-winter trip in a '68 Spitfire with no functioning heater. Did any of them have heaters that worked?

No. The only British cars that would emit warmth were the 6 cylinder Healeys. They would roast your right leg in the winter and incinerate it in the summer. No prettier sound in the world than a Big Healey going through the gears

[Guest Skyking]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 58Mustang</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

No. The only British cars that would emit warmth were the 6 cylinder Healeys. </div></div>

Have you ever driven a Metropolitan in the winter? Built in England, it will roast you to a crisp! The heater is big enough for a Hummer.

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No. The only British cars that would emit warmth were the 6 cylinder Healeys. They would roast your right leg in the winter and incinerate it in the summer. No prettier sound in the world than a Big Healey going through the gears

</div></div>

A TR6 would make you feel right at home for about 1/2 the money!

[CarlLaFong]

I was always amazed at the size of the heater in a Met. I assumed that the efficiency of a Smiths heater was in inverse proportion to it's size and it was actually a refrigerator.

I once worked in the parts department at several British dealerships. The Met was long out of production, but you could always spot the owners. They would ask for brake shoes for a Sprite and a water pump for an MG, nevre once mentioning Metropolitan. I had a Met parts book and would pull it out and slap it on the counter and ask, "Waddya need for yer Met?" They always looked surprized that I knew what they were up to.

[Guest Bluesky636]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Leonard Shepherd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was surprised to see these cars at the car show at Hershey last fall. </div></div>

I had a friend in college who wanted to buy two 1975 Ford Granadas (when they were new), one to drive and one to keep as an investment. Maybe that's his.

[michel88]

I had a '67 Healey 3000 that I bought new. I drove it as my daily driver until 1977. I loved that car and especially the sound of the exhaust. It was a car that would roast you in the summer with the top up. The heater worked well in the winter. Should have never sold that one.

[singingjanitor]

I would say the following -

AMC Javelin and AMX

Chevrolet Nova, El Camino, LUV,

Ford Escort

Hyundai S'coupe

[Guest Bluesky636]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: singingjanitor</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would say the following -

AMC Javelin and AMX

Chevrolet Nova, El Camino, LUV,

Ford Escort

Hyundai S'coupe

</div></div>

Ummmm, Javelins, AMXs, Chevy Novas, and El Caminos are already collectible and sought after today.

Maybe the British Ford Escort with a twin cam Cosworth engine. The others are junk now and will be non-existant in 40 years.

[Big Beat]

By now, pretty much anything from the late 60's and older already has some collector interest. I also think that eventually almost every car from the 70's will become collectible too. Just like today every single pre-war car is instantly collectible, regardless of what make it is.

The 70's cars, aside from the quality issues, had some interesting designs to them, and reflect their era nicely. They may have been terrible as transportation when new, but as collectibles, their visual and nostalgic aspects are far more important than their poor build quality. I wouldn't want a Pinto or Gremlin as my daily driver, but when taking one out to the occasional car show, its poor durability is a moot point. In fact, these cars' general crappiness makes them more collectible, not less. They're fun to make fun of, and they engender a sort of reverse snob appeal for some people. There was a time when an old Edsel screamed "loser" too, but few think that today, nor does it prevent anybody from appreciating Edsels at shows.

Also, while these cars may have been common as used junkers not too long ago, nice clean ones are already much more rare than people think. My avatar shows my '79 Monte Carlo. It looked good to me 23 years ago when it was just a used car, and it looks only better with age. It already gets lots of nice comments at shows. A few more years, and nobody will expect a Monte owner to have a mullet anymore

[Guest adam_knox]

You know, I'm not sure about "sought after," but I think Dodge Neons will be a popular item at shows in 30 or 40 years. In college lots of kids had 'em and suped 'em up. Maybe they'll get nostalgic again...My first car was a Mercury Topaz...But I don't think you'll see me waxing one in 2050!

[Steve Braverman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1937hd45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Who was the first to restore the car/truck they bought new as a tow vehilce for the true vintage car they entered in an AACA National event, do they still have both vehicles? </div></div>

I've been thinking about this. I sold my 1973 Suburban about 7 years ago, and it's sitting in a farmer's field a few miles away. It still looks good, and I've thought about getting it back. I bought it at Hershey in 1991 for a tow vehicle. It was low-mileage, rust-free, and had all the heavy-duty stuff and a 454. I sold it because it became impractical as a tow vehicle. The emmisions choked engine made little power and drank mucho fuel. I calculated the economy while towing an enclosed trailer in the summer with the A/C on going up Route 17 in NY at 3 mpg.

It would look good on the show field though in its Aztec Gold paint with wood paneled sides.

[Guest ACD34]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rusty_OToole</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My nomination for the only car of that era to deserve classic status:

Mercedes SL convertible, 1972 - 89. The last car to feature REAL chrome, REAL leather, REAL steel. Available in 6 cylinder or V8 form depending on year.

You can still buy one for less than a new Hyundai. Get the best one you can find, keep it maintained and you can enjoy it as a collector car for the rest of your life.</div></div>

While I have a sound 107 bodied SL of that vintage, and it is one of the best cars of that dismal era, I doubt that it will ever be considered collectable much less a "classic". There were just too many made and they are all handicapped style-wise and mechanically by the safety and emission standards of their day. The Mercedes engineers who designed them jokingly referred to the 107's as "panzerwagens", compared to their nimble predecessors. That said, the value of these vehicles is on the upswing and they are a bargain in every way but fuel economy.

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You can still buy one for less than a new Hyundai. </div></div>

It depends on the Hyundai.

Just for fun I compared current top values for my 1975 TR6 to a 1975 450SL on NADAguides.com. The TR6 is often listed on the "hot car" lists by speculators because it's the last of the true British roadsters and previous 6 cyl. cars of the type (Healey, XKE, etc.) have jumped markedly in price whereas the Triumph hasn't.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Triumph: $26,500. Mercedes: $22,000.</span> The Mercedes is definitely underpriced on today's market!

[charlier]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave@Moon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold">Triumph: $26,500. Mercedes: $22,000.</span> The Mercedes is definitely underpriced on today's market! </div></div>

Interesting web site but I have to wonder about the accuracy of the information.

The vehicles I researched were undervalued by 50-75% compared to market and appraised values.

[MarkV]

I hate to say this and it is going to sound negative but 40 years from now, there may be no gasoline or it might be $1000 a gallon. This will kill the hobby to the point of only seeing the cars stationary in a museum or garage, and there will be no more car shows, etc. It will reduce our cars to sentimental paper weights. Unless of course we are able to find an alternate way of powering our classics.

[Guest ZondaC12]

http://www.changingworldtech.com/what/index.asp

http://www.rinf.com/columnists/news/the-us-governments-secret-colorado-oil-discovery

Don't know about that second one, almost sounds too good to be true. Apparently there's on the order of two <span style="font-weight: bold">trillion</span> barrels worth of oil out under Colorado-ish. Sounds like it's all shale oil, which is $$$$$ to get out of there. However if there's anything there....then at least we'll HAVE fuel for our antiques.

The first one sounds much more promising to me. I read about them in the "Technologue" column (forget the writer's name) in Motor Trend at least 3 or 4 years ago. Cliff Notes: Trash --> oil which can be refined into "all the good stuff" i.e. motor fuels.

Don't wanna derail this into a discussion of gas oil etc. Just directed towards Wes...don't worry there will always be gasoline for these old heaps, just might be kinda pricey, and it might empty landfills! I don't think it will ever be so expensive that old iron will be "stuck in museums, not moving"

[MarkV]

So, if they can make trash into black gold than why don't they do it? Also, about Colorado, if it is protected land, good luck trying to drill there. But, here is something that most everyone does not realize is:

1. 75% of the U.S. is off limits for exploration

2. Most of our oil comes from Canada not the middle east (the canadians are our #1 importer of oil)

True, that there will be oil for our cars, but, if it is expensive, alot of people will just stay home. But, I won't! My 'stang gets superior gas mileage to the new cars, and it only costs me about 30-40 to fill from near empty to full, and that is in S. Ca! and it has all the modern stuff on it (air, etc.) The Dodge also gets good mileage. The MKV is improving as long as I dont put my foot on the gas, and the '21 does not use any!