Guest 39Super8 Posted March 30, 2008 Share Posted March 30, 2008 13 Months latterI bought my 39 Super 8 thirteen months ago. The car seemed very loud, like it had exhaust leaks. I inspect the exhaust manifold, and discovered it was riddled with cracks. As I began to learn about the car, I discovered there was a lot of rare 39 only parts that were switched somewhere along the line, for instance the air cleaner, some dash pieces and the trunk rack. The horns were also wrong. February 07 rolled around, and I made the trip from Phoenix to Los Angeles to the PI swap meet. I found an exhaust manifold, correct horn assembly, and the toughest to find (didn’t know at the time) a complete dash setup. I promptly returned and installed the exhaust manifold, and a new exhaust system. The car ran a little better (cured some bad intake leaks) but not right. Discovered the distributor was worn totally out, and carb bushings were gone. Addressed these issues. Car was now running smooth and quiet, so quiet, I heard ticking from the lower end. It sounded like noise from the lower rocker boxes. I pulled them, sure enough the pins and rollers were totally worn out. Got the pins and rollers from Egge, and with only 3 tries, got all the parts I was supposed to get in the first place. Installed everything and reassembled. Rockers now quiet, engine quiet and smooth, except for a slight knock under unloaded hard rev. Did the spark plug wire trick, and found number 8 rod to be knocking. dropped pan, engine looked good and clean, pulled rod cap and bearing was crumbling. Replaced number 8 bearing to try and limp along till I could do all. Worked perfect for 12 miles, then engine began to hammer again.Cal, at Custom Auto advised (and latter Bill Lauer) that the bearings in the 35 to 39 320 CI engines were notorious for going about 30,000 miles before needing their fragile bearings replaced. They advised updating to a Chrysler insert bearing. This involved welding up the rods to widen and resizing the big ends (Fritz Vaught explained procedure To do actual modification). This process took the talents of four skilled craftsmen and about 100 hours (yes, 100 hours!). Well at this rate, why not put new pistons and rings in, and have custom made replacement rod bolts made. Flush and reassemble engine, and whala! It runs smooth and quiet, no knocks. In between major fabrication and engine modifications and finding parts to do work, I discovered I had the wrong ignition switch, coil, and headlamp switch. Also missing radio delete plate. Found all that with the help of the (Packard Search and Obtain Crew) and managed to install. Oh, I forgot to mention the trunk rack was an incorrect junior rack. Packard Search and Obtain Crew found the senior rack pieces I needed and worked a swap. The car had a new wiring harness, but it was mostly incorrectly connected, but hey by this time, what was the difference! What’s another 20 or 30 hours to figure out what someone had not really done right. It certainly would have been easier to have put a different engine in this car, and ignore the other issues. I have logged into this site, as well as Packard Info for the last 13 months to see and talk about challenges other Packard owners faced. At times, I have been surprised at what I read, but mostly engaged and uplifted by the interaction with fellow Packard owners. This interaction was a major factor in pushing forward with the major items, and work the car needed to be reliable, drivable, and presented in a state of historical presentation. I have about 150 miles on it now, so far so good!Thanks to those of you who have been nice to a new pre-war Packard owner, and thanks to all of you who have put your thoughts in writing for all to peruse. (After Pics. have to be clicked on at bottom) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 39Super8 Posted March 30, 2008 Share Posted March 30, 2008 Dash Pictures before and after. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozstatman Posted March 30, 2008 Share Posted March 30, 2008 39Super8,Glad you got through your various trials and tribulations with your '39. Wish you many many happy Packard miles in it in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clipper47 Posted March 30, 2008 Share Posted March 30, 2008 39Super8 I admire you tenacity. I think I would have given up about the time I found out the rod bearings needed 100hours of shop work and looked for a 356 engine from a 1940! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 39Super8 Posted March 30, 2008 Share Posted March 30, 2008 Mal, Thanks for the words of encouragement. I always enjoy following your project update on Packard info. site. I am going to continue to make improvements where ever possible. Dave,About 3 months into the situation with the engine troubles, I seriously considered a 40 or latter engine. The thing that kept me on the 39 320 is the unique package it created in this one year only hybrid 120 / Super 8 package. This is truly a unique power plant body combination. Now that it is finished, I can really appreciate the challenge Packard faced in designing this ground breaking conglomeration of parts, in preparation for the 40 models. There do not seem to be very many 39 Super 8 cars, and I hope folks will enjoy seeing a functioning example out and about.Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clipper47 Posted March 30, 2008 Share Posted March 30, 2008 39Super8, I admire your dedication. The 39 Super Eights were indeed an odd combination with the newer body and the early engine and should be kept that way if at all possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrpushbutton Posted March 30, 2008 Share Posted March 30, 2008 39su8--great story, one we have all lived, or soon to live. You are doing what they call in the south "the Lord's work"Very inspiring story by someone who chose to do the right thing by the car every time instead of the cheap thing, or the easy thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Speedster Posted March 30, 2008 Share Posted March 30, 2008 I think I'm Gonna Cry! I Agree, and I hope the Resto-rod guys now see how it Should be done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 39Super8 Posted March 30, 2008 Share Posted March 30, 2008 John & Rick,I took the car to a local cruse night yesterday evening. A number of people commented that it was a refreshing change to see an original classic car. A few of the folks from the modifier crowd commented on how tough it must be to drive and maintain. I explained that the car steers relatively easy, stops above average for a near 70 year old auto, and makes surprisingly good power (really, a very pleasant well mannered car). I figure if a person wants an old car, why not the whole experience, good and bad. There was a 37 Packard coupe with the usual SBC treatment, but was not very exciting under the hood. There were people lined up to look under the hood of our original car, and lots of questions.I am happy to say we were not the only original Packard there last night. John Ball had his 53 Caribbean convertible out as well. People really seemed to be enamored by the stock cars, especially with straight 8’s. Some friends and I discussed this and began to realize that maybe properly maintained stock vehicles are what will be viewed as “cool and different” since everyone else shows up in “easy way out” cars that are what ever parts were convenient and easy to find. We were outnumbered street rod to stock probably 100:1 Maybe the answer is keep these stock vehicles out and about, in the eye of the public. Who knows, maybe restoration will soon be “The In Thing!”Thanks,Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted March 30, 2008 Share Posted March 30, 2008 On the subject of babbitt bearings. Would like to say something about the experience of Charlie Mahoney, Indian motorcycle mechanic of Campbellford Ontario.He had and Indian 4 from the 30s with babbitt bearings. Some time in the early 50s he made his own insert bearings from aluminum tubing. Those bearings worked perfectly for over 30 years.There is nothing wrong with aluminum bearings. Phil Vincent of the Vincent motorcycle company found that out. In the early 50s they were developing their 45HP motorcycle engine into a 70HP airplane engine. The stock roller bearings would not take the extra power. So he replaced the roller bearings with an aluminum sleeve. No more problem.VW ran their cams directly in the aluminum engine block starting in the early 50s. Honda runs their cams directly in their aluminum heads.What I am suggesting is that a good machinist could make aluminum bearings for babbitt bearing engines that would be better than original and practically as durable as modern insert bearings and it wouldn't take 100 hours to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clipper47 Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 Here's a '40 Super Eight on E-bay that was "restored" taking the easy way out. With 356CID engines available I have to ask myself why?http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1940-PACK...tem320233719027 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Speedster Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What I am suggesting is that a good machinist could make aluminum bearings for babbitt bearing engines that would be better than original and practically as durable as modern insert bearings and it wouldn't take 100 hours to do it. </div></div>Yes, There are many alloys of aluminum and with proper heat treating can be Very durable. The aircraft industry has developed aluminum alloys that are amazing, and some auto makers have used that technology with good results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1935Packard Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 Bravo to you for putting in all that time (or being willing to pay for it!). Great story, and yes, one that many of us have either been through or will.As for your comment, "Who knows, maybe restoration will soon be 'The In Thing!'", I think there may be some truth to that. In 2039, having a stock 100 year-old Packard will be remarkable. Having a car that is part 1939 Packard and part lots of other later cars won't be quite so remarkable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 You would want an alloy that is soft enough to embed small particles of grit but tough enough to stand the wear and tear. This would be a fairly soft grade of aluminum I would think. Babbitt metal is not real hard. Even soft aluminum would be more durable than babbitt.A good oil filter would be a necessity as well to prevent crankshaft wear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 39Super8 Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Clipper47</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here's a '40 Super Eight on E-bay that was "restored" taking the easy way out. With 356CID engines available I have to ask myself why?http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1940-PACKARD-SUPER-8-not-a-Buick-Ford-or-Cheverolet_W0QQitemZ320233719027QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item320233719027</div></div> Wow! That is a real shame. A long time friend has a 40 180, what a fine car! Oh well, another one bites the dust.Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 39Super8 Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 Rusty,I think a fellow could make bearings out of a number of different materials, given the time, equipment, and know how. The best part about the Chrysler rod bearing conversion is once it is done, it’s done. Now I simply go to the local auto parts and get what ever undersize I need or want, put in the drilling jig, drill the oiling hole to supply the wrist pin bushing, chamfer, and install. Lots of work modifying the rods on the front end, but a lifetime fix there after.Great knowledge about old MC’s I have been in the industry one way or another for the last 22 years. A good friend of mine made aluminum rod bearings for a cyclone overhead cam twin. They lasted about 20 minutes. The cyclone unlike the Vincent was a very low pressure oiling system. It seems we have all just about worked on anything and everything. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 Kudos on the work. A one-year wonder can be a real trial to restore. Thank you for sticking with it despite what were surely frustrating challenges. As you said, you now have a very unique vehicle.It has also been my experience that original cars seem to attract a lot more attention than crappy rods with cliches under the hood. I'll bet there aren't many people at regular cruise nights that have ever even seen a straight-8. And keep working to dispel that myth that old cars are unreliable and dangerous! That one is probably hurting the restoration hobby more than any other.Nice work and thanks for sharing!<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Clipper47</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here's a '40 Super Eight on E-bay that was "restored" taking the easy way out. With 356CID engines available I have to ask myself why?http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1940-PACK...tem320233719027 </div></div>That word <span style="font-weight: bold">restored.</span> You "improvers" keep using it. I don't think it means what you think it means.Not to reignite a fire, but this is exactly the kind of workmanship 90% of the rods out there feature. Another Packard bites the dust thanks to a backyard hack, not a professional craftsman. Tired, low-dollar 350/350 combination (carbureted no less, though he calls it <span style="font-style: italic">"the technology of today!")</span>, cut-up dashboard with cheesy wood inserts instead of even a basic level of metalcraft and scary, cobbled-up wiring hanging down. Nice work there, Virgil. I think I just threw up in my mouth a little bit. Gah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrpushbutton Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 They are going to have to build a newer, larger room in hell for all of these "improvers" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ZondaC12 Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 My God that looks positively hilarious. They ALL do. It just doesn't go!!! The newer steering wheel from wherever it was yanked...along with the original dash.Oh and re: the original poster, HIS dash....WOW. I really like that woodgraining pattern. Gorgeous. And the speedometer and clock they look like the old rotary telephones!!!! Awesome!!!Enjoy all the crowds around YOUR car! Fun ain't it? I'm in the same boat as you, I'm actually quite happy with the performance of my '38. I haven't had to yet but I just KNOW I could lock all four if I wanted to. Sure they fade afer severely repeated heavy use but that's not most of the time. Theyre usually good and cool and they BITE I tell ya!I'd like to second Matt's comment too I notice that a lot. They do often claim it's "restored" even with the extra qualifier "restored original". Sheesh at least be honest about what you're doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JT Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 How'bout this:http://www.oldride.com/classic_cars/154052.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ZondaC12 Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 Okay.....LOVE the idea of making the car patriotic absolutely love it.....HATE the execution. Dude do you LIVE here? It's NAVY blue first of all...second of all I feel like a flock of clowns will come bursting out of all four doors as soon as it pulls up. And I don't like clowns, never have, never will they're really un-entertaining. I was never scared of em, just BORED.Oh and gotta love the candy-cane all around the dash!! Not to mention the dash looks like it belongs in a Chris-Craft or something! All the more reason to clench my fist around this car...God knows what shape I'd be in if I saw someone make it look like THAT. Uuuuughh *shudder* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How'bout this:http://www.oldride.com/classic_cars/154052.html </div></div>Holy crap! To quote Clint Eastwood in "The Rookie": <span style="font-style: italic">The man who did that to that car ought to have his ass removed.</span> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1935Packard Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 Ouch. Well, look on the bright side; if these cars hadn't been "improved," they might have been sent to the crusher. You can always "un-improve" a car, but it's hard to "un-crush" them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ZondaC12 Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 In the end that's what keeps me level-headed...I try to think of it that way too...that at least the thing's still around...though it's mainly just the shell probably that's original, maybe the frame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 39Super8 Posted April 1, 2008 Share Posted April 1, 2008 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How'bout this:http://www.oldride.com/classic_cars/154052.html</div></div> Honestly, is that the Evil Kenivel memorial Packard? Good grief, I guess everyone is welcome to do what they want. I am not one to tell anyone what to do with their car, but that is a strange choice. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 39Super8 Posted April 1, 2008 Share Posted April 1, 2008 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How'bout this:http://www.oldride.com/classic_cars/154052.html</div></div> Honestly, is that the Evil Kenivel memorial Packard? Good grief, I guess everyone is welcome to do what they want. I am not one to tell anyone what to do with their car, but that is a strange choice. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earl B. Posted April 1, 2008 Share Posted April 1, 2008 And lest we forget what "GMC" means...."Got me Chev-er-let" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earl B. Posted April 1, 2008 Share Posted April 1, 2008 And lest we forget what "GMC" means...."Got me Chev-er-let" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter packard Posted April 1, 2008 Share Posted April 1, 2008 G'day 39 Super Eight, You are certainly determined and it shows in the finished product. However many of us have purchased "original" vehicles which have run on those old dirt roads for years and you wonder why they even had an oil filter fited. I purchased a 533 in 1974 and the 6 micron by-pass oil filter used to get hot, but there was one inch of sludge in the sump when i removed it. I was interested to read in your opening thread that the engine rebuilders consider that the big end bearings were generally worn at 30,000 miles. I am not doubting this on the dirt roads of the period, but many of us are now getting around to setting our engines up for slipper bearings and would appreciate it if we could benefit from the experience of others. Is it possible to promulgate a procedure to conduct this change? I don't mind paying to obtain this information. Best regards Peter Toet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter packard Posted April 1, 2008 Share Posted April 1, 2008 G'day 39 Super Eight, You are certainly determined and it shows in the finished product. However many of us have purchased "original" vehicles which have run on those old dirt roads for years and you wonder why they even had an oil filter fited. I purchased a 533 in 1974 and the 6 micron by-pass oil filter used to get hot, but there was one inch of sludge in the sump when i removed it. I was interested to read in your opening thread that the engine rebuilders consider that the big end bearings were generally worn at 30,000 miles. I am not doubting this on the dirt roads of the period, but many of us are now getting around to setting our engines up for slipper bearings and would appreciate it if we could benefit from the experience of others. Is it possible to promulgate a procedure to conduct this change? I don't mind paying to obtain this information. Best regards Peter Toet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted April 1, 2008 Share Posted April 1, 2008 On the subject of prewar engine life. I have a stack of old Motor magazines, the garage and car dealer trade magazine, from the 30s. Was surprised to find out, that engine life back then was 20,000 to 30,000 miles then you were ready for a ring and valve job. Another 20 or 30 thou and it was time for a complete rebuild.Every other page had ads for "10 Up" piston rings, valve stem seals, piston skirt expanders, or some other patent gimmick to overhaul a motor and stop oil burning without reboring and replacing pistons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted April 1, 2008 Share Posted April 1, 2008 On the subject of prewar engine life. I have a stack of old Motor magazines, the garage and car dealer trade magazine, from the 30s. Was surprised to find out, that engine life back then was 20,000 to 30,000 miles then you were ready for a ring and valve job. Another 20 or 30 thou and it was time for a complete rebuild.Every other page had ads for "10 Up" piston rings, valve stem seals, piston skirt expanders, or some other patent gimmick to overhaul a motor and stop oil burning without reboring and replacing pistons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrpushbutton Posted April 1, 2008 Share Posted April 1, 2008 they used to knurl pistons as part of those "rebuilds" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrpushbutton Posted April 1, 2008 Share Posted April 1, 2008 they used to knurl pistons as part of those "rebuilds" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ZondaC12 Posted April 1, 2008 Share Posted April 1, 2008 WOW why was the life so short? How come my '38 has 86000 never torn apart with great compression? LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ZondaC12 Posted April 1, 2008 Share Posted April 1, 2008 WOW why was the life so short? How come my '38 has 86000 never torn apart with great compression? LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted April 1, 2008 Share Posted April 1, 2008 Engine life more than doubled between 1935 and 1945. New wartime developments like chrome piston rings, better oil, better filters, and improved metallurgy all helped.The fact that your engine has been run on postwar heavy duty multigrade, detergent oil has a lot to do with it.Are you sure the engine was never overhauled before you got it, possibly in the late 40s or early 50s? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted April 1, 2008 Share Posted April 1, 2008 Engine life more than doubled between 1935 and 1945. New wartime developments like chrome piston rings, better oil, better filters, and improved metallurgy all helped.The fact that your engine has been run on postwar heavy duty multigrade, detergent oil has a lot to do with it.Are you sure the engine was never overhauled before you got it, possibly in the late 40s or early 50s? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ZondaC12 Posted April 1, 2008 Share Posted April 1, 2008 Yeah I've heard the oil truly was bad back then compared to now.I *guess* I couldn't be sure, especially before my dad owned it! I'm almost positive HE never tore into it at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ZondaC12 Posted April 1, 2008 Share Posted April 1, 2008 Yeah I've heard the oil truly was bad back then compared to now.I *guess* I couldn't be sure, especially before my dad owned it! I'm almost positive HE never tore into it at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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