1950 Samson Indy Car

[MuscleCarBoy]

At the 2008 Wheels Car Show in Canberra last weekend one of the cars on display was a 1950 Samson Indy Car which is probably owned by someone in Canberra. It was a very impressive vehicle but only a 4 cylinder.

Would anyone on this Forum know the history of this car or these types of cars. I'm assuming it was raced at the Indy 500 ???...are they highly sought after and therefore expensive to buy these days ??

If you want to have a look at the Samson car from Canberra it is posted in the VIDEOS section of the carsofaustralia website. Link: http://www.carsofaustralia.com.au/downloads_and_fun.php?cat=2

you may have to do a search under SAMSOn to find it in the VIDEOS area on this site as they have lots of video clips of cars

Musclecarboy1957

(Sydney)

[nearchoclatetown]

Beautiful car MCB. Do a google on Indy+500+1950+Samson .There's some more information and pics there. I'd guess it had an Offy, Offenhauser, engine. I like the nod of approval from the little guy in the hat!!

[1937hd45]

My computer is too old to play videos, so I can't see the car you are talking about. There were two Sampson Specials that ran Indy in the 1930's. The first one is under restoration with a sister engine to the original V16 MILLER that went into the second Sampson Indy car that is pictured here. This car is THE REAL DEAL, has the V-16 MILLER that was salvaged from the LSR Black Hawk Special that Frank Lockhart died in at Daytona Beach. It ran Indy Post War as the Spike Jones Special, and was restored within the last 10 years to its 1939 appearance and has been in the INDY 500 collection for well over 30 years. I'm not related to Bob Swanson the driver, but I do collect anything related to his career as one or the top drivers from the 1930's.

[Rusty_OToole]

Probably 90% of the cars raced at Indy in the 50s used Offenhauser DOHC 4 cylinder racing engines. Nearly as many used Kurtis chassis.

These days old race cars are very expensive, yes.

[MuscleCarBoy]

Thanks for the responses everyone. In his post Rusty Otoole says that "Probably 90% of the cars raced at Indy in the 50s used Offenhauser DOHC 4 cylinder racing engines"......I would have thought that at a time when the 8 cylinder engines were very common in American passenger cars that the Indy cars would have also run with the more powerful 8 cylinder motors.

Any comments on why the racers went with 4 cylinder motors over 8 cylinder motors......was it the cost of setting up race cars to handle the power of the bigger motors ???

MuscleCarBoy1957

Sydney, Australia

[nearchoclatetown]

The rules limited cubic inches, making the 4 cylinder desirable. But the Offy was no normal 4 cylinder, it was a dual overhead cam dedicated designed engine just for racing. The Offy was pretty expensive at the time, but made lots of power. Do a google on Offy engines. There weren't any main bearing caps, rods were accessed through windows in the side of the block.

[Rusty_OToole]

The winningest racing engines in America possibly the world were those of Harry Miller and his successors. He made a supercharged straight eight with double overhead cams in the 20s for Indy racing. One of them made 171 MPH in the hands of Frank Lockhart. Not bad for a 1 1/2 litre car in the mid 20s.

When the locusts came in 1929 Miller lost his business. His machine shop foreman Fred Offenhauser bought some of Miller's assets at the bankruptcy sale in 1932 including a 4 cylinder engine designed for racing boats.

This became the basis for the Offenhauser 4 cylinder Indy engine which was still winning at Indy 30 years later.

It was not superceded until the Ford introduced its OHC V8 racing engine.

The Ford Indy V8 was designed by Leo Goosen Miller's old draftsman and had a lot of Miller and Offy in it.

[Rusty_OToole]

A little history of the Miller - Offenhauser engines.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offenhauser

In the 20s Miller sold a DOHC straight eight supercharged racing engine for $5000. A rear wheel drive racing car for $10000 and a front wheel drive racer for $15000.

At the time you could buy a Ford for under $500, a Cadillac for $2500, a Rolls Royce or Pierce Arrow for $5000 and up. A good farm cost from $5000 to $10000 and so did a brand new 2 story brick house in a major city.

When the depression hit there was no call for expensive racing cars.

The Offy 4 was an effort to furnish a purpose built racing engine at a lower price. The buyer could then build his own car around it or buy a chassis from an established chassis constructor.

[1937hd45]

Ira Vail one of the top race car drivers in the 1920's was known to buy a new MILLER race car and enter it in races from L.A. all across the country. When the car finally arrived in Connecticut it was paid for from the prize money it won. Most race cars were shipped by train in those days and hauled to the track by truck or flat towed behind a rented vehicle.

[Guest DaveCorbin]

Dear Rusty:

A little further history: Leo Goosen started as a draftsman for Walter Marr, the great Buick engine engineer and the inventor of the overhead valve layout. By 1903, Marr built a single cylinder car that was a double overhead cam engine. That car is still in existence. Marr hired Goosen when he was a lad of about 17 in around 1914. I have a copy of a drawing that Leo made in 1916, which shows a cam drive tower on the front of an engine. The tower design is almost identical to that seen on the Offenhauser.

In regard to the 90% comment, after the war the usual Indy field of 33 cars was 2 Novi V8's and 31 Offys. The Novis had a high pitched scream and the Offys a deep roar, so you could tell where every one was with your eyes closed.

Regards, Dave Corbin

[1937hd45]

Now's a good time to ask the trivia question, How did NOVI get it's name?

[Rusty_OToole]

Named for the town of NOVI Michigan.

Here is how the town got its name. When they built the first railroads the steam locomitives had to fill up with water every 50 miles. So they built a water tower and put up a windmill to fill it.

As they now had trains stopping regularly little towns grew up around these stops. Sometimes called "tank towns".

When the surveyers laid out the railroad thru Michgan they marked the location of the tanks on the map, No.I No.II etc. Novi was the sixth tank or No.VI

Now if you still haven't had enough railroad trivia. Some bright spark figured out a way that the trains didn't have to stop for water all the time. Just make a long trough between the rails, fill it with water, and lower a scoop from the tender. This was known as "taking water on the fly" or "jerking water".

The former tank towns where the train no longer stopped, were known as "jerkwater towns" and the residents when they came to the big city as "jerks".

[Rusty_OToole]

According to Wikipedia the above story of the naming of the town is bogus. Novi township was named 40 years before the railroad was built. Rats. O well it was a good story.

[Rusty_OToole]

As long as we are asking silly questions what is an Indy car doing in Canberra?

[1937hd45]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rusty_OToole</div><div class="ubbcode-body">According to Wikipedia the above story of the naming of the town is bogus. Novi township was named 40 years before the railroad was built. Rats. O well it was a good story. </div></div>

How old is Wikipedia? What do they know, I'm sticking with the RR water tower story.

[Rusty_OToole]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MuscleCarBoy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks for the responses everyone. In his post Rusty Otoole says that "Probably 90% of the cars raced at Indy in the 50s used Offenhauser DOHC 4 cylinder racing engines"......I would have thought that at a time when the 8 cylinder engines were very common in American passenger cars that the Indy cars would have also run with the more powerful 8 cylinder motors.

Any comments on why the racers went with 4 cylinder motors over 8 cylinder motors......was it the cost of setting up race cars to handle the power of the bigger motors ???

The Indy 500 started with no limit on engine size. In the teens they imposed a limit of 4.5litres, then 3 litres, then thru the 20s the limit was 1.5 litres.

In this period the fastest cars had supercharged DOHC straight eight engines from Miller or Duesenberg.

The Indianapolis management and the racing sanctioning body the AAA introduced a new formula in 1928. In place of the 1.5 litre formula they brought in what became known as the "junk formula". This encouraged the building of cheaper race cars by allowing souped up production car engines of up to 366 cu in.

There were other restrictions such as no more than 2 valves per cylinder, no superchargers except on 2 cycle or diesel engines, and no more than 2 carburetors.

The 4 cylinder Offy (ne Miller) was a response to this formula.

Once the new formula became established and numerous cars were built to suit, it became very difficult to change.

Rules were changed to defend the established racers and their investments. Any challenger could expect to be banned off the track.

For example in the early 50s Chrysler built a very powerful experimental version of their 331 cu in Hemi V8. On Chrysler's test track it beat the best Indy cars by 4 MPH in average lap times.

The AAA immediately reduced the allowable displacement to 272 cu in.

The same thing happened when Andy Granatelli looked like winning the Indy 500 with a turbine car. The turbine's air intake area was reduced, then reduced again until the turbine was uncompetitive.

This strategy lasted until the 60s when the old 'roadsters' or 'dinosaurs' were ousted by the new generation of rear engine cars.

MuscleCarBoy1957

Sydney, Australia </div></div>