Best Alternatior for a 12V conversion - '50 Str8?

[Gary_N]

At some point in time I need to convert to a 12 V system. I'm wondering what some of you have used in your conversions.

Thanks!

Gary

[51dyno]

Theres an old timer that rebuilds ford ts & as motors ,he has 6volt altenaters.I believe he"s from minesota.he has a stand at Iola every year.If interested I can look for his flyer,there is someone building altenaters inside generater housings.

[Guest simplyconnected]

I used a standard Mustang alternator on my '55 Ford. GM also has a one-wire alternator that's very popular. These alternators have the voltage regulators already built in. Good ones are salvaged daily.

Depending on your demand, you may want to go with a 6-volt alternator. Let's do the math. A 35amp 6-volt generator or alternator produces 210 watts (that's like two 100 watt light bulbs). Headlights and the heater max it out.

A 12-volt 55amp alternator produces 660 watts. That's three times the power of the 6-volt system. 55 amps is the smallest alternator you will find because they go over 100 amps for police, taxi, ambulance, etc.

If you do the 12-volt conversion, all your wire sizes are more than sufficient. All light bulbs need to be changed as well as horn relay, and starter relay. Your gauges need a separate regulator, distributor coil needs a resistor, and your radio needs to be reworked. Your 6-volt starter runs well on 12-volts.

Sounds like a lot of retrofit, but well worth a Saturday afternoon. Want electric wipers or fuel pump? An alarm? Remote start? Power windows/locks/trunk release? Try finding them in six-volt. You already know about stereo stuff. Your cell phone, GPS, and inverters don't do 6-volt.

There's real good reasons why all the car companies abandoned 6-volt back in 1955, and never looked back. I'm glad I changed mine.

[Gary_N]

Simplyconnected: Thanks for the advice. I really can't live much longer with the 6V system. Right now it takes about two - five minutes for the car to actually start charging. The gauge shows a draw then eventually pegs to the plus side, and then comes back to a little above neutral on the gauge. I keep turning stuff off when I stop at a light, like the radio and heater blower.

Gary

[Leif Holmberg]

Way not put a new AC 6 Volt (look like the old one) insted of your old DC generator.Sears for Gener Nator.

Leif in Sweden.

[Guest rlbleeker]

The simplest solution is probably to fix whatever is wrong with your system. Surely a new 1950 Buick didn't have this problem? Nothing wrong with 12V (obviously), but it's a bit of work to convert. In my experience, 12V on a 6V starter is not a good thing.

[Guest simplyconnected]

Certainly, to be a 'purist' you must maintain original equipment. Back in the days of having one tail light, two headlights, and a heater motor, the 6-volt system worked marginally well. Generators only produce when they are turning VERY fast.

Long idle periods caused engine overheating. Vapor lock was very common on hot days. Some days, the ol' gal just wouldn't start. Bottom line is, these cars were built for specific service and for select areas of the U. S. Sustained mountain service demanded a re-jetted carb.

If a 12-volt system sensibly solves your electrical woes, then why not retrofit? Even at an idle, an alternator charges very nicely. It is hearty. Batteries and everything else in 12-volt is much cheaper and available everywhere. By the way, even after 1955, gauges were kept at 6-volts for many decades. The little 6v regulator is on the back of every Ford dash board built up to now.

I have run my 6-volt starter on 12-volts for three years now. The extra starting speed helps my engine start faster so I don't need to keep the key in "start" as long.

My choice was to retrofit and I am VERY happy I did. I come from experience; from both sides. If you feel strongly about keeping it stock, that is your choice.

[Guest rlbleeker]

If you do go the 12V route and keep the 6V starter, it will crank very nicely; but remember that it will be drawing approximately twice the amps it was designed for and can overheat if cranked too long. I melted the armature in a straight 8 Chrysler doing this.

[Guest simplyconnected]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rlbleeker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...it will crank very nicely; but remember that it will be drawing approximately twice the amps it was designed for and can overheat if cranked too long...</div></div>

If you burned out your armature using 12 volts, you probably would have burned it out on 6 volts. You were cranking WAY too long and exceeded the duty cycle of that motor. It's all about current over time.

Starter motors are series-wound DC motors. The same current flowing through the field also flows through the brushes and armature. All the windings are coat hanger sized copper to carry tremendous amps which produces magnetism.

Heat is your enemy and speed is your friend. The faster your starter motor turns, the LESS amps it uses. Keep your engine tuned, and your start cycles will be short. 12 volts on your starter will turn your engine faster, which helps it to start sooner. By the way, your battery size becomes smaller when you go to 12 volts. So do wire sizes.

My '55 Ford is a 272 V-8, built with 6-volt POSITIVE ground. Using 12-v neg. gnd. works sweet. No changes. Hook starter to POS (on a 12-v starter relay), and turn the key.

[Guest rlbleeker]

Not an expert here, but my understanding of series-wound DC motors is basically that speed is proportional to voltage and torque is proportional to amperage. At startup there is no counter-voltage, so it's simply V = IR. Doubling the voltage doubles the current. So when you hit the key it will draw approximately twice the initial amperage. As speed increases, the counter-voltage increases; decreasing amperage and torque. Speed will increase until the torque matches the load. Turning your engine over faster, means doing more work (compressing air, friction) in the same length of time, thus more torque and hence more amperage.

Now, these old starters are definitely over engineered and may handle 12V indefinitely; particularly with reduced cranking time. But I still think they are going to be more prone to failure than a correct 12V starter.

[Guest simplyconnected]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rlbleeker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not an expert here, but my understanding of series-wound DC motors is basically that speed is proportional to voltage and torque is proportional to amperage.</div></div> I never heard of it put quite that way, but you're on the right track. Truth is, you can't have voltage without amperage. Both multiplied, equals work (in watts). 746 watts = one hp. A motor is an inductor, not a resistor. Like a solenoid, when the clapper comes in, current goes down A LOT.

When the starter first energizes, it's at "Locked Rotor Current" until motion begins. Locked Rotor Current is 400% of "Full Load Amps". This is at its strongest magnetism because current makes magnetism. An engines is hardest to turn when at a dead stop (cold-welded). As motion increases, counter electromotive force increases, current and magnetism decreases. Think of it this way, holding your key on when the pistons take over and the engine revs, current goes down so far your starter motor could turn into a generator (without a bendix gear).

At 6-volts, sometimes my starter would labor terribly, barely turning the engine fast enough to start (like on cold mornings). We've all been there. The starter is using so much current, the battery can barely supply the demand. Current in this case is enormous, for as long as it takes to start the engine (or until the bat dies). That kind of sustained work kills starters. (Flooding does too.)

We all know that starters have a short duty cycle. They aren't fan-cooled. If they overheat, that's it for either 6-volt or 12-volt. We could argue, because 12-v starters burn up, they are really designed to run on a lower voltage. Truth is, they will run on 6-volts using #2AWG copper.

6-volt batteries need more Cold Cranking Amps than 12-v (to do the same work). 800 CCA is typical. 6-v generators usually output 35amps (when they are run fast).

12-v batteries run ~450 CCA, and alternators put out 55-100 amps. It takes 1/4 to 1/2 the time to recover a 12-v battery. - Dave Dare, FMC (DAP)

[Guest simplyconnected]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rlbleeker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not an expert here, but my understanding of series-wound DC motors is basically that speed is proportional to voltage and torque is proportional to amperage.</div></div> I never heard of it put quite that way, but you're on the right track. Truth is, you can't have voltage without amperage. Both multiplied, equals work (in watts). 746 watts = one hp. A motor is an inductor, not a resistor. Like a solenoid, when the clapper comes in, current goes down A LOT.

When the starter first energizes, it's at "Locked Rotor Current" until motion begins. Locked Rotor Current is 400% of "Full Load Amps". This is at its strongest magnetism because current makes magnetism. An engines is hardest to turn when at a dead stop (cold-welded). As motion increases, counter electromotive force increases, current and magnetism decreases. Think of it this way, holding your key on when the pistons take over and the engine revs, current goes down so far your starter motor could turn into a generator (without a bendix gear).

At 6-volts, sometimes my starter would labor terribly, barely turning the engine fast enough to start (like on cold mornings). We've all been there. The starter is using so much current, the battery can barely supply the demand. Current in this case is enormous, for as long as it takes to start the engine (or until the bat dies). That kind of sustained work kills starters. (Flooding does too.)

We all know that starters have a short duty cycle. They aren't fan-cooled. If they overheat, that's it for either 6-volt or 12-volt. We could argue, because 12-v starters burn up, they are really designed to run on a lower voltage. Truth is, they will run on 6-volts using #2AWG copper.

6-volt batteries need more Cold Cranking Amps than 12-v (to do the same work). 800 CCA is typical. 6-v generators usually output 35amps (when they are run fast).

12-v batteries run ~450 CCA, and alternators put out 55-100 amps. It takes 1/4 to 1/2 the time to recover a 12-v battery. - Dave Dare, FMC (DAP)

[Guest rlbleeker]

The torque the motor produces is the result of the opposing magnetic fields and is a function of the windings and current (amps) passing through the windings. A 12V starter will have twice the turns and produce the same torque at the same speed with half the current, watts remains the same.

torque = motor constant * amps

As the motor turns the fields will induce a counter-voltage (EMF) that opposes the supply voltage. The equation becomes:

amps = (supply voltage - counter voltage)/resistance

At locked rotor counter voltage is 0, so it simply becomes I = V/R. R is the resistance in the copper and is constant if we ignore heat. So doubling the voltage from 6 to 12, doubles the initial amp draw. Doubling the amps doubles the torque, which is why it accelerates to cranking speed so much faster.

As the motor speeds up, the counter voltage increases and the effective voltage (supply voltage - counter voltage) decreases and so amps and torque do likewise. It will accelerate to a stable speed where the load torque equals the motor torque. If we had a constant torque load, then doubling the voltage would double the speed. It would consume twice the watts (2 * volts * amps) and produce twice the mechanical power (2 * RPM * torque).

We don't have a constant load situation though. The torque required to crank the engine is greatest when the engine is not in motion, static friction. Once in motion the required torque will decrease significantly and then increase with speed. Cranking the engine faster than the 6V cranking speed will require more torque and therefore more amps, regardless of supply voltage. It will find a balance point (the 12V cranking speed) somewhere below 2 times the 6V cranking speed with amps somewhere above the 6V cranking amps.

I get your point that the increased torque is going to significantly decrease cranking time for a well tuned car. Heat is the enemy. The resistive heating is a function of the wire size, the amperage traveling through that wire (voltage doesn't matter) and the length of time it's doing so. The increase in heating due to the increased amps and the decrease in heating due to decreased duration my very well result in a net decrease if the car starts quickly.

My caution is that if you crank it as long on 12V as you would on 6V you will have increased heating and risk damaging the starter. Sometimes they don't start right up and if your running a 6V starter on 12V you should keep that in mind. Shorten your starting attempts and leave time for cooling in between.

The starter I melted didn't happen while cranking but on that 2X inrush when I hit the key. Melted the solder on two of the bars at the commutator. Maybe it was a weak joint in the first place, a little extra resistance. It was fine on 6V, melted in short order on 12V.

[Guest rlbleeker]

The torque the motor produces is the result of the opposing magnetic fields and is a function of the windings and current (amps) passing through the windings. A 12V starter will have twice the turns and produce the same torque at the same speed with half the current, watts remains the same.

torque = motor constant * amps

As the motor turns the fields will induce a counter-voltage (EMF) that opposes the supply voltage. The equation becomes:

amps = (supply voltage - counter voltage)/resistance

At locked rotor counter voltage is 0, so it simply becomes I = V/R. R is the resistance in the copper and is constant if we ignore heat. So doubling the voltage from 6 to 12, doubles the initial amp draw. Doubling the amps doubles the torque, which is why it accelerates to cranking speed so much faster.

As the motor speeds up, the counter voltage increases and the effective voltage (supply voltage - counter voltage) decreases and so amps and torque do likewise. It will accelerate to a stable speed where the load torque equals the motor torque. If we had a constant torque load, then doubling the voltage would double the speed. It would consume twice the watts (2 * volts * amps) and produce twice the mechanical power (2 * RPM * torque).

We don't have a constant load situation though. The torque required to crank the engine is greatest when the engine is not in motion, static friction. Once in motion the required torque will decrease significantly and then increase with speed. Cranking the engine faster than the 6V cranking speed will require more torque and therefore more amps, regardless of supply voltage. It will find a balance point (the 12V cranking speed) somewhere below 2 times the 6V cranking speed with amps somewhere above the 6V cranking amps.

I get your point that the increased torque is going to significantly decrease cranking time for a well tuned car. Heat is the enemy. The resistive heating is a function of the wire size, the amperage traveling through that wire (voltage doesn't matter) and the length of time it's doing so. The increase in heating due to the increased amps and the decrease in heating due to decreased duration my very well result in a net decrease if the car starts quickly.

My caution is that if you crank it as long on 12V as you would on 6V you will have increased heating and risk damaging the starter. Sometimes they don't start right up and if your running a 6V starter on 12V you should keep that in mind. Shorten your starting attempts and leave time for cooling in between.

The starter I melted didn't happen while cranking but on that 2X inrush when I hit the key. Melted the solder on two of the bars at the commutator. Maybe it was a weak joint in the first place, a little extra resistance. It was fine on 6V, melted in short order on 12V.

[imported_buick5563]

Dave and RL,

This is very informative and some of the geekiest discussion I've read in a while. Thanks for the lessons. (seriously)

Mike

[imported_buick5563]

Dave and RL,

This is very informative and some of the geekiest discussion I've read in a while. Thanks for the lessons. (seriously)

Mike

[Guest simplyconnected]

Thanks Mike. I don't mean to beat this horse, but knowing about starters is beneficial to all restorers.

Friction 101: When engine parts sit motionless for an extended time, strong adhesion occurs at the points of contact. The points of contact are in effect cold-welded, forming a continuous solid. The longer it sits, the worse it gets. If the materials are to be slid over each other, these junctions must be sheared. Breaking this bond requires tremendous torque (and causes engine wear).

The relationship of starter windings, polar patterns of the magnetic structures and other specifications have so much to do with the actual performance characteristics. The simple explanations you see in elementary textbooks and qualitative explanations grossly oversimplify how motors work and lead to confusion and misunderstanding by the novice technical person.

Consider, if your 6-volt starter cable requires #4 copper wire, how come your field windings don't burn up? All that current certainly goes through them, right? Field windings are heavy, but they aren't #4, they are more like #10 (which normally carries 200 amps only for a moment). Doubling to 12-volts couldn't possibly double field wire current. The answer is INDUCTANCE.

Inductance 101: The ability of a winding (inductor) to store energy in the form of a magnetic field (and consequently to oppose changes in current) is called inductance. When current through an inductor is increased or decreased, the inductor "resists" the change by producing a voltage between its leads in opposing polarity to the change. Confusing? Ohm’s law just got trashed.

Starting current as a rule of thumb (for all motors) is four times normal running current. It could be as high as TEN times for some motors. (Ever see your lights dim when a motor starts?) That's why we don't have a fuse on your starter motor wire. The AMP value would be so high, it's useless, so we let the wire be the fuse.

Changing to 12-volts doesn't double the starting speed, inductance won't let it. If it did, your engine would start at over 1,000 rpm! Realistically, speed goes up nearly 50%, but starting torque skyrockets; that's what we want.

Check your brushes for wear (on all starters). If the spring is weak or the carbon is short, a small gap will cause your commutator segments to burn. Starter motors are hearty and should last a very long time when properly maintained. As a side note, alternators have brushes too (on slip rings). They're really small and only feed the field windings. They normally last at least 100,000 miles. New alt brushes with the holder are about $15.

Here's a help for checking inductors (motors, transformers, solenoids, etc). Using a continuity light, if you scrape the test leads over the winding leads, you should see a little pretty blue trailing spark. If your light shines with no spark, you have a dead short. Try this on any inductor with the lights turned down. Make sure the power is off first. Those cheap penlight continuity testers work just fine for this. - Dave

[Guest simplyconnected]

Thanks Mike. I don't mean to beat this horse, but knowing about starters is beneficial to all restorers.

Friction 101: When engine parts sit motionless for an extended time, strong adhesion occurs at the points of contact. The points of contact are in effect cold-welded, forming a continuous solid. The longer it sits, the worse it gets. If the materials are to be slid over each other, these junctions must be sheared. Breaking this bond requires tremendous torque (and causes engine wear).

The relationship of starter windings, polar patterns of the magnetic structures and other specifications have so much to do with the actual performance characteristics. The simple explanations you see in elementary textbooks and qualitative explanations grossly oversimplify how motors work and lead to confusion and misunderstanding by the novice technical person.

Consider, if your 6-volt starter cable requires #4 copper wire, how come your field windings don't burn up? All that current certainly goes through them, right? Field windings are heavy, but they aren't #4, they are more like #10 (which normally carries 200 amps only for a moment). Doubling to 12-volts couldn't possibly double field wire current. The answer is INDUCTANCE.

Inductance 101: The ability of a winding (inductor) to store energy in the form of a magnetic field (and consequently to oppose changes in current) is called inductance. When current through an inductor is increased or decreased, the inductor "resists" the change by producing a voltage between its leads in opposing polarity to the change. Confusing? Ohm’s law just got trashed.

Starting current as a rule of thumb (for all motors) is four times normal running current. It could be as high as TEN times for some motors. (Ever see your lights dim when a motor starts?) That's why we don't have a fuse on your starter motor wire. The AMP value would be so high, it's useless, so we let the wire be the fuse.

Changing to 12-volts doesn't double the starting speed, inductance won't let it. If it did, your engine would start at over 1,000 rpm! Realistically, speed goes up nearly 50%, but starting torque skyrockets; that's what we want.

Check your brushes for wear (on all starters). If the spring is weak or the carbon is short, a small gap will cause your commutator segments to burn. Starter motors are hearty and should last a very long time when properly maintained. As a side note, alternators have brushes too (on slip rings). They're really small and only feed the field windings. They normally last at least 100,000 miles. New alt brushes with the holder are about $15.

Here's a help for checking inductors (motors, transformers, solenoids, etc). Using a continuity light, if you scrape the test leads over the winding leads, you should see a little pretty blue trailing spark. If your light shines with no spark, you have a dead short. Try this on any inductor with the lights turned down. Make sure the power is off first. Those cheap penlight continuity testers work just fine for this. - Dave

[Guest rlbleeker]

Yeah, this is definitely a bit geeky and I suppose we've gotten a bit off topic, but I'm finding it interesting. It's been a long time since I studied flux and all that stuff in college physics. I know I've over simplified my arguments.

So inductance is a relationship between flux (size and strength of magnetic field) and current. The current flow creates the magnetic field which creates the inductance which resists the flow of current until a balance is found. Correct?

Then doubling the voltage across a winding won't actually flow twice the current (due to inductance), but it will still flow more current and make more torque won't it?

I agree, it won't crank the engine twice as fast, it can't. I didn't want to take a guess at it, so just said "somewhere below 2 times". I'll buy your 1.5 number. Isn't it still generating more torque at that speed and using more amps to do so?

Am I correct that a 12V starter will, to over simplify, have twice the wire and generate the same torque with half the amps? It won't crank as fast as your 6V starter on 12V correct?

[Guest rlbleeker]

Yeah, this is definitely a bit geeky and I suppose we've gotten a bit off topic, but I'm finding it interesting. It's been a long time since I studied flux and all that stuff in college physics. I know I've over simplified my arguments.

So inductance is a relationship between flux (size and strength of magnetic field) and current. The current flow creates the magnetic field which creates the inductance which resists the flow of current until a balance is found. Correct?

Then doubling the voltage across a winding won't actually flow twice the current (due to inductance), but it will still flow more current and make more torque won't it?

I agree, it won't crank the engine twice as fast, it can't. I didn't want to take a guess at it, so just said "somewhere below 2 times". I'll buy your 1.5 number. Isn't it still generating more torque at that speed and using more amps to do so?

Am I correct that a 12V starter will, to over simplify, have twice the wire and generate the same torque with half the amps? It won't crank as fast as your 6V starter on 12V correct?

[Guest simplyconnected]

RL, formal and PRACTICAL education is essential here. A starter motor will DIE trying to do its job. Go to a starter rebuild shop and talk with those guys. They see all the defective starters, and can pretty much tell what caused the failures (in all brands of lap-wound series motors).

Just when we think we have all the answers, they change the rules. New starters (for the last ten years) have NO WIRES in the field. They use permanent magnet fields, and gear reduction. They are much smaller, and pack a wallop like never before. They are now called "high torque" and of course, cost more. They are a better motor for these reasons; they weigh less, are smaller, don't have a field that can burn out, have fewer internal connections, and are used on a wider variety of engines.

Ford uses the same starter on six-cyl engines as well as big V-8's. Now, THERE's a drastic difference in load! The starter doesn't care because it's a series motor. Wait a minute, how can it be a series motor when there is NO SERIES WINDINGS? It can't be. Battery leads attach directly to the armature brush holders. Current is regulated by inductance and Counter-EMF. Again, check your brushes about every 3-4 years (especially on large engines).

But, if I used one of these starters on my '55 Ford (pos ground 6-volt), and simply switched polarity, it would run BACKWARDS! To remedy, I have to rotate field magnets (polarity) around.

They don't offer a 6-volt version, but guess what... It will work on 6-volts as well as the old starters will. (Use a high CCA battery if you stick with 6-v.) Remember, the slower it goes, the more current it draws.

In the final analysis, I prefer a 12 volt, negative ground system. It works better and costs less all the way around. Every auto manufacturer agrees.

Dave Dare

Electrical Engineer

Ford Motor Co.

Dearborn Assembly Plant

[Guest simplyconnected]

RL, formal and PRACTICAL education is essential here. A starter motor will DIE trying to do its job. Go to a starter rebuild shop and talk with those guys. They see all the defective starters, and can pretty much tell what caused the failures (in all brands of lap-wound series motors).

Just when we think we have all the answers, they change the rules. New starters (for the last ten years) have NO WIRES in the field. They use permanent magnet fields, and gear reduction. They are much smaller, and pack a wallop like never before. They are now called "high torque" and of course, cost more. They are a better motor for these reasons; they weigh less, are smaller, don't have a field that can burn out, have fewer internal connections, and are used on a wider variety of engines.

Ford uses the same starter on six-cyl engines as well as big V-8's. Now, THERE's a drastic difference in load! The starter doesn't care because it's a series motor. Wait a minute, how can it be a series motor when there is NO SERIES WINDINGS? It can't be. Battery leads attach directly to the armature brush holders. Current is regulated by inductance and Counter-EMF. Again, check your brushes about every 3-4 years (especially on large engines).

But, if I used one of these starters on my '55 Ford (pos ground 6-volt), and simply switched polarity, it would run BACKWARDS! To remedy, I have to rotate field magnets (polarity) around.

They don't offer a 6-volt version, but guess what... It will work on 6-volts as well as the old starters will. (Use a high CCA battery if you stick with 6-v.) Remember, the slower it goes, the more current it draws.

In the final analysis, I prefer a 12 volt, negative ground system. It works better and costs less all the way around. Every auto manufacturer agrees.

Dave Dare

Electrical Engineer

Ford Motor Co.

Dearborn Assembly Plant

[Guest rlbleeker]

Dave, I'm in no way suggesting that a 6V system is better than a 12V system or that people shouldn't convert. My only points are:

1) That converting to 12V is an option, not a requirement. Plenty of cars out there running 6V systems. If it was a car I planned to drive extensively, I'd convert it.

2) That a 6V starter on a 12V system will be more prone to failure. One option, clearly, is to run it till it dies. If it never does, great. That's what I do with VFDs on old 3 phase motors. Why rewind till you have to? But, if it was a car I planned to drive much, I'd run a 12V starter. Or have a spare in the trunk. Maybe I'm just gun shy.

If I'm wrong on #2, please explain. Chrysler used gear reduction starters clear back in the '60s, never understood why GM didn't. Enjoying the discussion tremendously.

Ryan

[Guest rlbleeker]

Dave, I'm in no way suggesting that a 6V system is better than a 12V system or that people shouldn't convert. My only points are:

1) That converting to 12V is an option, not a requirement. Plenty of cars out there running 6V systems. If it was a car I planned to drive extensively, I'd convert it.

2) That a 6V starter on a 12V system will be more prone to failure. One option, clearly, is to run it till it dies. If it never does, great. That's what I do with VFDs on old 3 phase motors. Why rewind till you have to? But, if it was a car I planned to drive much, I'd run a 12V starter. Or have a spare in the trunk. Maybe I'm just gun shy.

If I'm wrong on #2, please explain. Chrysler used gear reduction starters clear back in the '60s, never understood why GM didn't. Enjoying the discussion tremendously.

Ryan

[Guest simplyconnected]

Ryan, I believe ALL cars started using 6-volt systems to begin with. I don't know why. Pos ground? Neg? Problems had to be solved as cheaply as possible. Eventually, it all comes down to saving money.

Remember Trico WS wiper motors? They worked too, but marginally. 'If your car came with one, you better keep it...' Sorry, I replaced mine with an electric motor (that you can't see anyway). It looks stock and works beautifully, especially on 'interval' mode. Acceleration doesn't phase it either.

Chrysler cars had that distinctive whining sound because they used gear reduction, and VERY successfully. Why didn't anyone else? I guess for the same reason only Chrysler used torsion bar suspension, or Ford's Twin I-Beam. Maybe it had to do with patent rights, but I'm sure it was a cost thing. Ford's new starters are more money.

My experience is, running my 6-volt starter on 12 volts works just fine. Is it prone to failure? I haven't found that yet, but I maintain my starter and I treat my classic car as if it is very fragile, but serviceable. Eventually, everything goes back to the earth.

You raise a good point: Every time you get behind the wheel, you are depending on your start/charge system to work. How many people maintain their starter (or generator)?

Like your variable frequency drive systems, they run them until they don't work any more. Is it because nobody wants to muscle a good starter in and out? How many years should pass before inspection? The same question goes for brakes and tires.

We at Ford, schedule all our line motors to be greased and inspected twice per year. DC motors have their brushes changed but rarely more than half at once (they need to seat properly). Some of our synchronous DC motors are still running from the 1930's. Scheduled maintenance saves us money. Who can afford to pay 1,000 assemblers to wait until a line motor is replaced? I see my car the same way, an ounce of prevention...

I enjoy helping restorers any way I can. It is truly a labor of love and a very difficult task, particularly when the car manufacturers do not help support their old products.

[Guest simplyconnected]

Ryan, I believe ALL cars started using 6-volt systems to begin with. I don't know why. Pos ground? Neg? Problems had to be solved as cheaply as possible. Eventually, it all comes down to saving money.

Remember Trico WS wiper motors? They worked too, but marginally. 'If your car came with one, you better keep it...' Sorry, I replaced mine with an electric motor (that you can't see anyway). It looks stock and works beautifully, especially on 'interval' mode. Acceleration doesn't phase it either.

Chrysler cars had that distinctive whining sound because they used gear reduction, and VERY successfully. Why didn't anyone else? I guess for the same reason only Chrysler used torsion bar suspension, or Ford's Twin I-Beam. Maybe it had to do with patent rights, but I'm sure it was a cost thing. Ford's new starters are more money.

My experience is, running my 6-volt starter on 12 volts works just fine. Is it prone to failure? I haven't found that yet, but I maintain my starter and I treat my classic car as if it is very fragile, but serviceable. Eventually, everything goes back to the earth.

You raise a good point: Every time you get behind the wheel, you are depending on your start/charge system to work. How many people maintain their starter (or generator)?

Like your variable frequency drive systems, they run them until they don't work any more. Is it because nobody wants to muscle a good starter in and out? How many years should pass before inspection? The same question goes for brakes and tires.

We at Ford, schedule all our line motors to be greased and inspected twice per year. DC motors have their brushes changed but rarely more than half at once (they need to seat properly). Some of our synchronous DC motors are still running from the 1930's. Scheduled maintenance saves us money. Who can afford to pay 1,000 assemblers to wait until a line motor is replaced? I see my car the same way, an ounce of prevention...

I enjoy helping restorers any way I can. It is truly a labor of love and a very difficult task, particularly when the car manufacturers do not help support their old products.

[Guest rlbleeker]

I don't know why everybody started with 6V either. Maybe it had to do with battery technology at that time. Maybe the engineers just thought that was plenty. It would be interesting to know.

I agree, maintenance has a huge impact on both performance and reliability. I would hazard to guess that the vast majority of owners NEVER service their start/charge system; they wait till they have a critical issue. That's really my point with regards to 6V systems. We know a 12V system is better, but many people tend to blame ALL their problems on the fact that it's 6V, when in reality much of the issue may be the condition of the system. I see the same thing over and over with disc brakes. If your car is breaking really poorly, it's not because it's got drum brakes, it's because something is wrong. I wouldn't

be at all surprised if you never have an issue. But if somebody just throws a one wire alternator and a 12V battery in a car with a marginal system, they may.

In my shop, if a machine goes down, it's not a big deal. It's just my home shop and I'll put off whatever I was doing till I get it fixed. I'd much rather change a starter at home than a parking lot though. So, for me, it would be worth the extra bucks to go ahead and get a 12V starter. I think that improves my odds a bit.

I've got a couple of 5HP DC motors from the 40s in the shop, still running after who knows how many thousands of hours. I should probably check the brushes on those.

[Guest rlbleeker]

I don't know why everybody started with 6V either. Maybe it had to do with battery technology at that time. Maybe the engineers just thought that was plenty. It would be interesting to know.

I agree, maintenance has a huge impact on both performance and reliability. I would hazard to guess that the vast majority of owners NEVER service their start/charge system; they wait till they have a critical issue. That's really my point with regards to 6V systems. We know a 12V system is better, but many people tend to blame ALL their problems on the fact that it's 6V, when in reality much of the issue may be the condition of the system. I see the same thing over and over with disc brakes. If your car is breaking really poorly, it's not because it's got drum brakes, it's because something is wrong. I wouldn't

be at all surprised if you never have an issue. But if somebody just throws a one wire alternator and a 12V battery in a car with a marginal system, they may.

In my shop, if a machine goes down, it's not a big deal. It's just my home shop and I'll put off whatever I was doing till I get it fixed. I'd much rather change a starter at home than a parking lot though. So, for me, it would be worth the extra bucks to go ahead and get a 12V starter. I think that improves my odds a bit.

I've got a couple of 5HP DC motors from the 40s in the shop, still running after who knows how many thousands of hours. I should probably check the brushes on those.

[Gary_N]

If I put the battery in the trunk, what size cables would I need to use?

Gary

[Gary_N]

Let me re-phrase the battery in the trunk question: 1 gauge or 2? Thanks! Gary

[Matt Harwood]

The bigger, the better. I used 0 gauge welding cable in my race car when I moved the battery to the trunk. The longer the wire, the higher the resistance. Bigger is always better in cases like this. I'm sure the more knowledgeable fellows above will give you better answers than this, too.

[Guest Bob Call]

TMI !!! Back to the original question.

Gary

Powermaster, http://www.powermastermotorsports.com/powergen.html,

makes the PowerGEN which is a 12V alternator that looks like a GM Delco or a Ford generator. If you want to keep the generator look and upgrade to a modern 12V system this is the way to go.

As for the starter, use the 6V until it quits and then switch to a 12V. I'm guessing a Chevy 6 cylinder 12V starter from the late 50's might fit your Buford 8. Back in the 40's and 50's it was very common to use an 8V battery in a 6V system for a little additional omph in the starting department. This is one alternative. You can probably get 8V batteries at farm tractor supply stores.

If you convert to a 12V system and keep your points and condenser distributor you will need a 12V coil and an ignition ballast resistor. You will need someone that knows auto electrics to wire and switch the ballast resistor. This may require a later model starter switch. Best choice is to convert your distributor to an electronic with a Pertronix Ignitor conversion kit, Petronix catalog at http://www.shopatron.com/index/pg=1/591.0.26484.26485.0.0.0

[Guest 39convertible]

Hi 51dyno

i´m interested to know moore about that guy in Minnesota.

do you know moore about him ?

website ,email, phone number ??

thanks Janne