"Brass-era" car question

[Kristina_Cook]

Hi--I'm a novelist working on book set in 1907 England, and I was hoping someone here could help me with an automobile question. I've been researching Edwardian-era ("brass era") motor cars, and have found quite a bit of technical information--specs, diagrams, history, photographs, etc.

What I *haven't* been able to find is more 'layman' type information concerning exactly how a car from this era would be driven. For instance, I've given a character in my book a 1906 Opel coupe. From what I've gleaned, it seems the car would have multiple gears, and that reverse would be accomplished with a hand control rather than a foot pedal. Would the car be driven with a clutch similar to today's manual transmission cars? In other words, let out the clutch pedal as you depress the gas pedal?

Secondly, how would the car have been started? Did most brass era cars have electric starters? Was it like a two-stroke car, where gas and oil had to be mixed?

Any information--particularly put in layman's terms!--would be much appreciated!!!

~Kristina Cook

www.kristinacook.com

[Kristina_Cook]

Oh, and I should add that if anyone has a better car suggestion--perhaps something sportier than the Opel coupe--I'd love to hear it! Has to be a European model, however. I really wanted to give my character a Morgan Runabout, but my book is set just a bit too early for that. I'd love to find something comparable.

Thanks again,

~Kristina Cook

www.kristinacook.com

[Steve Braverman]

The electric starter did not appear until about 1915. Starting was accomplished with the hand crank. Most all cars of the time had four stroke engines, with a few exceptions. Transmissions were very varied at the time, some were conventional manuals with clutches, others were the "Planetary" type that used either levers, pedals, or both.

I don't know much about European cars of that era, but a closed car such as a coupe would be very unusual. Most everything at the time was open with a folding top and side curtains. Closed styles didn't become popular until after 1915.

Not many European cars of this vintage exist on this side of the pond. Maybe there is a Horseless Carriage Club in Europe. That may be a better place to ask.

[Rusty_OToole]

In the early days there were many different control systems, nothing was standardised.

Some cars had a gearshift with all the gears in a row. Others had an H pattern shift but there was no agreement as to where the gears went. Ford shifted gears with foot pedals, DeDion Bouton made you turn a wheel.

Cars were started with a hand crank. It was quite a procedure.

See if you can find a book called "Kings of the Road" by Ken Purdy. In it he details the procedure for starting his WW1 era Mercer. The whole process takes about 10 minutes - if you are lucky and it starts.

I don't know specifically what a 1906 Opel had. But it's a safe bet that it started by a hand crank on the front under the radiator, and you had to carefully adjust the spark control, choke and throttle so it would start but not break your arm.

It's also a safe bet that it had some kind of hand shift gearbox and a clutch pedal similar to today's cars. And that the gears were not synchronised which means it took a certain degree of skill to shift gears without clashing or grinding.

Really the best thing you could do is go to an outdoor car show where some brass era cars are on display and ask the owners to demonstrate the starting procedure, the driving procedure, and if possible take you for a ride.

Old car owners are proud and friendly. If you tell them you are researching a book and want to get the details of starting and driving a brass age car right you will have no problem getting the cooperation you need. In fact it may be a problem getting some of them to shut up Ha ha.

[Rusty_OToole]

I have been trying to think where you can see some Edwardian era cars in action. All I can think of is the Old Rhinebeck Aerodrome at Rhinebeck New York.

http://www.fieldtrip.com/ny/47588610.htm

I think they have a meeting of early cars there every summer. You would have to contact them to find out when.

Perhaps some other members could help you find a meeting of early cars in the New York area??

Anyone??

[Ivan Saxton]

Probably a good choice to not use a Morgan three-wheeler. They did start about 1912, which is later; but they were minimal, economical motoring, and had a "Darwin Awards" design factor. One of my friends has a friend who restored one of the '20's, and will not use it. I know they have a cult following, but if the centre rear drive tyre goes flat the car becomes very difficult to control.

Your reference to a reverse pedal indicates an epicyclic gearbox, which is somewhat similar to a modern automatic but without the control system. These were simpler for a novice to drive, but had drawbacks. A man I once met who had been a car dealer in a rural area here in Australia in the 1920's told me that T Ford sales were typically to a farmer who came to town in a horse jinker, was given a 20 minute driving lesson, and drove home in the Ford.

Most cars had manual transmission, mostly three forward gears, but sometimes four in more expensive or sporty types. The gear change lever was mostly on the righthand side, outside the body. Beside the gear lever was the handbrake which had a latch so you could lock it on when parked. It was usually also used as the main brake, though you could notice the effect of the footbrake (right pedal), which was often less satisfactory.

The clutch was often either a leather faced cone held by heavy spring pressure in a matching taper in the engine flywheel; or a multiplate unit of smaller diameter. To change gear you depressed the clutch and shifted out of gear into neutral, then paused and closed the throttle a bit to let the engine and input gears slow down; then depress the clutch again and engage the next faster gear. Hopefully the speeds of the gears are matched so the engage smoothly and quietly. This is called "double de-clutching", and quickly becomes second nature when you are driving so you dont need to think about it. When you change to a slower gear the process requires speeding up the engine in neutral, but is otherwise the same. It is important to use lower gear when going down a steep hill, because the brakes are not as good as modern brakes. The horn, which you might use to alert others of a potentially risky situation worked when you blew air through a reed by squeezing the rubber bulb, if you could spare a hand to do so.

There were no electric starters. You had a crank handle at the front of the engine, which you pushed in and moved in the direction of rotation to engage the starting dog. Most engines run clockwise as you face the front of the car.

To start the car in the morning, you first checked that oil and wtaer were full, and you had enough fuel. Then pump air pressure into the fuel tank with a plunger pump on the dash till about 1 psi shows on the gauge. Then set the hand trottle control a little open, (maybe 1/4 but you learn by experience what your car requires), and RETARD the spark point with the hand control (which is also likely to be on the steering column) so cylinders fire just after the pistons pass top centre. If you hand crank an engine with the spark fully advanced it will kick backwards and could injure you. (When the engine fires in the correct direction the sarting dog slides out of mesh.

Just one suggestion for a car of reasonable size, which had very good performance but would be smooth, handle well, and be a good choice for a woman to drive, would be Lancia. Lancia was still a race driver with FIAT when he started building his own cars in 1906, and you can still buy new Lancias today at reasonable price if you want something that is pleasant and easy to drive which is quick between two points cross country because you spend minimal time below your cruising speed. Early cars were useful in competition, and Hillard won the Light Car Race at the 1908 Vanderbilt Cup event at Savannah against much larger cars.

You will have to do your homework. Bob lives in Conneticut which should not be to far from you, and he can probably put you in touch with other people who can demonstrate what cars of that period are like to drive.

One little paperback which might be usefull is a Batsford publication titled Veteran and Edwardian Motor Cars by David Scott-Montcrieff. On Lancia there is a book of that title by Nigel Trow, ISBN 0-7153-7882-1. You are probably better than I at sourcing books throughabebooks or alibris if you cant get them through a library. You just have to work out what you want through developing enough understanding of what may be your options; and have fun. Sorry I am too far away to help you much.

Ivan Saxton

[Rusty_OToole]

I still say for a novelist there is no substitute for experience. If she can go to a car show and meet some owners of pre WW1 vehicles she will get the right info and the right "feel" of the era and the cars. This can be quite different from what you get from books.

[Terry Bond]

Not sure how you selected the car you did but I'd think if the setting was 1907 era England you'd be more "correct" sticking with one of the great early British or French cars of that era. Pick up a copy of the movie Genevive. It's a great story about an early London to Brighton run and it's full of the right kind of cars for you and also plenty of action showing how to start and run those early vehicles. Check in also with the National Motor Museum at Beaulieu for assistance.

Terry

[Kristina_Cook]

Thank you all for the *incredibly* helpful advice! I really appreciate it. Rhinebeck is a daytrip from here--I will definitely plan to go. Will also look for the books suggested at Alibris--and will also check out some British antique car clubs.

And Ivan Saxton, I'm very grateful for your detailed description--that definitely helps immensely!

My father races vintage cars and is a member of the AACA, and he suggested I try this forum--very glad he did!

A very grateful....Kristina

www.kristinacook.com

[oldcarfudd]

On Sunday, May 18, at the airport in Quakertown, PA, there will be a car show and swap meet run by the Olde Tyme Car Club, a Regional Group of the Horseless Carriage Club of America. The next 4 days (Monday through Thursday) we'll be touring in the area. This event is called Brass in Bucks County, and is only for cars built before 1916. Last year there were about 75 brass-era cars in the show. (If the weather is bad, there won't be nearly so many.) I hope to be there with a 1906 Buick, and will be happy to show you how the beast works. I expect, though, that all the cars will be American-made. We didn't import many in those days. European cars were, in general (and with some outstanding American exceptions), more refined than ours, but not sturdy enough for our terrible roads.

[oldcarfudd]

Sorry, I didn't realize this forum would only post my e-mail handle. My name is Gil Fitzhugh, Sr. My son, also Gil Fitzhugh, will be there with a 1909 EMF. It works much differently from the Buick, so you can see a couple of alternatives. At least now you'll know who to ask for; not everyone knows me as oldcarfudd!

[mrpushbutton]

Kristina--do you write Bodice rippers?

[Kristina_Cook]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mrpushbutton</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Kristina--do you write Bodice rippers? </div></div>

Ummmm....if I say yes, will you still answer my questions, LOL?! Okay, yes. But I'm fairly certain that no bodice has ever actually been harmed in the writing of my books.

~Kristina

www.kristinacook.com

[Kristina_Cook]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oldcarfudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">On Sunday, May 18, at the airport in Quakertown, PA, there will be a car show and swap meet run by the Olde Tyme Car Club, a Regional Group of the Horseless Carriage Club of America. </div></div>

I will definitely try to be there! Thanks so much for letting me know.

~Kristina

www.kristinacook.com

[Rusty_OToole]

Check with the Rhinebeck people, I believe they hold an annual antique car event some time in the summer if you can arrange your visit for the same time.

[Rusty_OToole]

If you want a small car the DeDion Bouton was about the most popular "voiturette" of the day. They were sold in England though they were made in France. In fact their influence was surprisingly widespread, they were sold in America as well and the first Pierce cars had DeDion engines.

However it was strictly an economy car with no sporting pretensions.

In those days driving at all was an adventure. Anyone with a car was considered "fast" literally and figuratively.

But the leading speed models were all heavier more expensive cars like Mercedes.

In the small car or voiturette class probably the Peugeot had the sportiest reputation after the race winning "Lion-Peugeot" model.

[jscheib]

I suggest you also consider then Greenwich Concours, also close to NYC, as they have American Cars Saturday, June 7 and Imported on Sunday, June 8. They always attract some interesting cars on both days, but they are not all from early 1900s.

The web site is www.greenwichconcours.com. I would think you might be able to get a list of cars expected some time in May if you call the organizers and explain your need, as it is invitation only and they will have a list. There is a spectator fee.

Good luck with your search.

John

[mrpushbutton]

Kristina, Of course! this forum has many experts.

[Kristina_Cook]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rusty_OToole</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you want a small car the DeDion Bouton was about the most popular "voiturette" of the day. </div></div>

I need the car to be big enough for two people, and hopefully kind of 'sporty.' I was looking up Renault models last night, which looked sort of promising. Maybe I'll wait till I get the book I ordered yesterday--the Edwardian and Veteran Motorcar book--and see if anything looks good. The character is pretty wealthy, so I might just give him a Mercedes!

~Kristina

www.kristinacook.com

[Kristina_Cook]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jscheib</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I suggest you also consider then Greenwich Concours, also close to NYC, as they have American Cars Saturday, June 7 and Imported on Sunday, June 8.

</div></div>

This looks wonderful,and is SO close by! Will definitely put this on my calendar. I spent my childhood being dragged around to classic car shows--these shows will bring back such memories, LOL! Too bad my dad isn't a brass-era car enthusiast--his cars are all 50's-60's sports cars.

~Kristina

www.kristinacook.com

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Kristina, if you are looking to get an idea of how some of these cars operate now, may I suggest you check out this site:

http://www.jaylenosgarage.com/video/index.shtml?vidID=151521

Jay Leno is a brass enthusiast and he has several short videos where he highlights the operation of such cars -the type of stuff I think you may want for your research. Of course, you still will want to go to the meets noted above!

Also, without giving too much away can you share anything about your character? He/She - for example, if it is a she, and she is a city girl, she may have had an electric - many of which were designed for women to drive "in town", etc.

Great you are taking the time to get the details right!

[Kristina_Cook]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Steve_Mack_CT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Also, without giving too much away can you share anything about your character? He/She - for example, if it is a she, and she is a city girl, she may have had an electric - many of which were designed for women to drive "in town", etc. </div></div>

Actually, the character with the car is a man--wealthy from the cotton mills in the north of England, near Manchester. The car is mostly for him to take 'pleasure jaunts' around the countryside, not really for driving in town. I'd like him to take the 'heroine' on a ride through the countryside, and had toyed with the idea of her asking him to teach her to drive--but it sounds so complicated, maybe I'll skip that.

I always drive myself nuts researching things for my books--trying to get the details right, even though 98% of my readers won't know the difference. Still, there's that 2% who *will*. Even if I don't include the details, I feel like I can write 'richer' fiction if I understand the details myself, if that makes any sense!

And I'll definitely be thanking this forum on my acknowledgment page, if no one objects!

~Kristina

www.kristinacook.com

[mrpushbutton]

Kristina--I write museum labels, we have a saying in the business:

"Those who should read them (to learn) won't, those that do are an expert on the subject (interpret that as you wish) and are trying to see what you got wrong"

[Matt Harwood]

If he's a wealthy, playboy type or a little bit "dangerous" I think a big, fire-breathing Mercedes would be great. Those monsters were like locomotives for the road and could really blast around the countryside at what were, at the time, absolutely insane speeds. With today's roads, some of those 1900s Mercedes can probably knock on 80 MPH pretty easily (stopping them, however, is another matter entirely!). It would take a real man to find out where the top end is on something like that. You don't just drive them, you have to <span style="font-style: italic">master</span> cars like this and really show them who's boss.

Dig this one:

One of these beasts could <span style="font-style: italic">easily</span> put the fear of God into a young woman in the passenger seat. I recall Tom Lester in his giant '08 or '09 Mercedes scaring the pants off this 10-year-old lad with a quick blast down I-271 at somewhat elevated speeds. I'll never forget it, and learned why they wore goggles in the early days of motoring. And what a <span style="font-weight: bold">sound</span> that monster made!

Also, the driving part isn't really that hard and your heroine could probably master the techniques of actually <span style="font-style: italic">operating </span>the car. It's the starting that needs specialized procedures and a good deal of upper body strength. And as someone pointed out up above, there was always the very real danger of broken arms if you do it wrong. I guess the steering at slow speeds would be a real test of arm strength as well, but I think any woman deserving the title "heroine" could do it.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> always drive myself nuts researching things for my books--trying to get the details right, even though 98% of my readers won't know the difference. Still, there's that 2% who *will*. Even if I don't include the details, I feel like I can write 'richer' fiction if I understand the details myself, if that makes any sense!</div></div>

As a writer myself, I know exactly what you mean. Even if a majority of readers don't notice, <span style="font-style: italic">I'll</span> know the difference. I've been yanked out of my suspension of disbelief several times by big-name authors (Stephen King, for instance, used a late-model 4-door Eldorado in one of his books--aargh!), and would really hate to do that to even one reader.

This is a fun topic. Thanks for coming to visit us, Kristina!

[Kristina_Cook]

Oh, I am LOVING that Mercedes!! Whoa! Okay, so my heroine could steer it--it's the clutch that I'm worried about her being able to master! I imagine it would be like today--she might pop the clutch a time or two, but wouldn't that stall the car, requiring a long and tortuous restart??

I really do thank you all for your enthusiasm and advice--this IS fun!

~Kristina

www.kristinacook.com

[Tom M]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Matt Harwood</div><div class="ubbcode-body">scaring the pants off this 10-year-old lad</div></div> Was that you and did you have to change your shorts after that ride

[Matt Harwood]

Aye, the lad 'twas I. It felt like I was going to fall out the entire time--no doors and you kind of sit on top of the seats rather than in them. Add to that my short legs not touching the floor, and man, it was a white-knuckler all the way.

But that beastie barked so loud I could hear it over the roar of the wind at 60+ MPH. Amazing, even nearly 30 years later.

I think only a ride in an SJ Duesenberg could rival it.

[Matt Harwood]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kristina_Cook</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...she might pop the clutch a time or two, but wouldn't that stall the car, requiring a long and tortuous restart?? </div></div>

She's not going to stall one of those behemoths, Kristina. She'll pop the clutch and it'll just <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">GO</span></span>.

[Guest ZondaC12]

What's the plant thats got in it? I wanna say like a 4 cylinder with something on the order of a few hundred cubic inches?

I forget where I first read about em but indeed it seems like in the early years there were some BIG cars with BIG engines....I never knew theyd go THAT fast though. That really is wild.

Jeez that's one of the things I hope to do before I die...get a ride in a big classic or one of these brass ones or hell even just to STAND next to one would be nice! Though I have ridden in a 1926 packard eight, which made my Buick seem like a VW Beetle!!!

[Matt Harwood]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">even just to STAND next to one would be nice!</div></div>

1911 Oldsmobile, probably comparable to the Mercedes above. 6-cylinders, around 800 cubic inches (I'll bet Steve Moskowitz knows exactly how big). The pistons are probably the size of paint cans.

And for reference, Julia is 5-feet, 2-inches tall with the hat on.

[Guest ZondaC12]

Wow. That is a BUS. Good thing that's not what was stashed away in the garage for me to find two years ago. Yes I would have wanted to drive it to school, and it would have necessitated multiple parking spaces. Don't think the school would have liked that.

[Rusty_OToole]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kristina_Cook</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Steve_Mack_CT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Also, without giving too much away can you share anything about your character? He/She - for example, if it is a she, and she is a city girl, she may have had an electric - many of which were designed for women to drive "in town", etc. </div></div>

Actually, the character with the car is a man--wealthy from the cotton mills in the north of England, near Manchester. The car is mostly for him to take 'pleasure jaunts' around the countryside, not really for driving in town. I'd like him to take the 'heroine' on a ride through the countryside, and had toyed with the idea of her asking him to teach her to drive--but it sounds so complicated, maybe I'll skip that.

I always drive myself nuts researching things for my books--trying to get the details right, even though 98% of my readers won't know the difference. Still, there's that 2% who *will*. Even if I don't include the details, I feel like I can write 'richer' fiction if I understand the details myself, if that makes any sense!

And I'll definitely be thanking this forum on my acknowledgment page, if no one objects!

~Kristina

www.kristinacook.com </div></div>

At that time in the circumstances you describe he would be likely to own a powerful touring car and employ a chauffeur.

Or possibly hire a car and driver when he wanted one, if he did not use it every day.

In those days cars were hard to drive, took a lot of upkeep and cleaning (imagine polishing all that brass weekly). Anyone who could afford a powerful car could afford a chauffeur.

The wealthy had large staffs, the servant problem didn't come until after WW1.

[Rusty_OToole]

Most likely he would have a 4 cylinder 40HP touring car of English or French make. This would be the equivalent of a top BMW, Mercedes or Cadillac sedan today.

There were even more powerful cars, the first 60HP models and 6 cylinder engines were out but these were the equivalent of today's $250,000 V12 supercars.

[Kristina_Cook]

Actually, he's more 'new money'--the situation you describe is more fitting to the landed gentry of the era. He's not a landowner, and not a member of high society. He likes his car because he likes to drive it himself!

Imagine a young, wealthy, noveau-riche (i.e. not socially acceptable) man who likes fast cars....

~Kristina

www.kristinacook.com

[oldcarfudd]

Herb Singe in Hillside, NJ has a Darracq speedster from about 1907 that would be just the ticket. It's amazingly advanced for its day - way ahead of anything we were building then - and looks like an American Mercer raceabout from several years later. Darracqs were made in France and would have been readily available to your wealthy English protagonist. And he wouldn't have had to rip her bodice - the wind would have done it for him!

[Matt Harwood]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ZondaC12</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wow. That is a BUS. Good thing that's not what was stashed away in the garage for me to find two years ago. Yes I would have wanted to drive it to school, and it would have necessitated multiple parking spaces. Don't think the school would have liked that. </div></div>

Paul, my friend, if you found something like that in your garage, I think school would no longer be a necessity to ensure your financial future.

An unrestored car very similar to that Olds up there just sold for $1.65 million.

PS: looks like it's "only" 707 cubic inches.

[Guest ZondaC12]

Yeah I remember that selling....but the picture gave no insight as to the size of the car!

Hmm and to think I just kinda blew off the brass era! Although to be <span style="font-style: italic">honest</span>, I'm glad this thing is no older than late '30s. It can just barely sneak into highway use. If it were say a '31 Buick it sounds like that would not be possible. And I mean I could stay within local cruises that need only 45/40 mph secondary roads at worst, but I like being able to go greater distances too. Oh well. You take what you got and you work with it and make the best of it! If it were less capable I would stay within whatever limits that imposed.

[Kristina_Cook]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oldcarfudd</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> And he wouldn't have had to rip her bodice - the wind would have done it for him! </div></div>

LOL--now *that's* funny!!! Okay, going to research Darracq speedsters...

~Kristina

www.kristinacook.com

[Rusty_OToole]

The more nouveau riche he was the more likely he would be to put on the dog by having a fine house, and lots of servants including chauffeur.

Of course a wealthy sportsman would drive his own car when he felt like it but probably employ a chauffeur as well.

[Kristina_Cook]

Oooh, I think I might have found *the* car! Thanks to whomever suggested the Darracq manufacturer, I found this link, and the 1903 Darracq type JJ pictured on the lower left side of the page is pretty much *exactly* what I was envisioning (though I hadn't imagined a back seat, but why not?!). Now to find more information...

http://www.brighton-early.com/darracq.html