Guest imported_Speedster Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tbirdman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My question is why would Packard put timing indicator on the flywheel where it is so much easier to see than on the dampener. </div></div>Because it Won't work on the dampener.If a mark on the balancer is Not moving, then someone has modified the balancer (vulcanized it when they shouldn't have) or the bolts that clamp the parts together have been torqued down too tight. Either would Not let the dampener operate as it should, since it's the movement of the outer part that cancels out the shock-pulses.Dang it, How many of you guys, that have an opinion on this, have actually taken a '29 or '30 Balancer Apart ??? I'm guessing 'None of you'.TDC is Not marked on these Balancers. And no one has explained Why these balancers have a Friction-clutch-disk in them, if they are not supposed to spin on that disk surface ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 The harmonic balancer plates move back and forth a bit as mentioned above but should always return to "center" if properly asembled and vulcanized as original. The inner and outer discs do not rotate independently. Marks on the flywheel would be more accurate in the long run, that much is true. I do not have a part # for the 6th series dampner assembly but the 626-645 Service manual calls out many of the same part #s as the '31-'39 for friction discs, springs, etc. I suspect Steele Rubber has revulcanized several thousand of these by now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom M Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 Can one time by ear if you didn't want to pull starter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 Not to belabor the point but the ASE Standards of Adjustment sheet for '31-'32 Packards clearly illustrates Ignition timing set by use of gradation marks on vibration dampner. "Contacts to open 9 degrees before TDC of #1 cylinder, which is 9 graduations on front vibration dampner". I could go out back and photo a '32 dampner with its associated markings and pointer but it's cold out there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Speedster Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 As I said before, you are talking about a Later design, not the one used in '30, which is what this tread is supposed to be about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Speedster Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Packin31</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Can one time by ear if you didn't want to pull starter? </div></div> Yes, there's a Large range of adjustment with dash Pull-rod also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen_Dyneto Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 Of course you can time by ear, and quite accurately, and the nice thing about it is that it compensates for changes in compression ratio (like from resurfacing the head) and gasoline. Put in gasoline of the grade you intend to use, and adjust the timing until you just hear a hint of preignition or "ping" on a sharp acceleration in high gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom M Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 Owen,That is what I am talking about. I remember when I worked for my stepfather when we would set the timing per the book and still pinging we would resort to the good old ear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Speedster Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 I have a question for you, (anyone with '31 and '32 experience). Are there 4 bolts that hold the balancer together (I think they are 5/16" diameter bolts), in those year models balancer? (Not counting the large center bolt that attaches it to crankshaft) If so, then they should be the slip type balancer, if not then they should be the later vulcanized type. By removing those 4 bolts, it's easy to disassemble the slip type balancer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 Parts book calls for 6 bolts (actually screws) on everything 826 and newer. Doesn't list them for 7th series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Speedster Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 Okay, so the '32 is definitely a different design than the '30. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 But part # 195918 Motor Vibration Damper Assembly is specified for all 726 thru 904. Maybe a misprint? Maybe a retrofit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Speedster Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 Tom, (both Toms, Ken and anyone else with a '30 thru '32) How many bolts does you balancer have, in the front surface ? Thanks, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom M Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 Rick,Mine has Six... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Speedster Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 Thanks Tom We are narrowing this down, now we just need to know about the '30. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
34PackardRoadsta Posted February 27, 2008 Author Share Posted February 27, 2008 I will check mine tonight.Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter packard Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 G'day all, I have fitted my 533 vibration dampener with a timing mark and pointer and it works fine without any oscillations, it has obviously been been fitted with a later dampener. My spare 533 engine has no dampener but has a solid metal pulley with the hand crank scroll . I am not doubting that the 733 has the friction discs. I am hoping that someone can come up with a Packard Motor Company explanation on how it works. A very interesting thread and we are all learning something. Best regards Peter Toet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Speedster Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 Another thing that complicates this, on '29s, is that the belt-pulley is in front of the balancer on the Super-8 engine, not behind it like the Standard-8, so you can't see the bolts in the balancer after the Super-8s is completely assembled. Tom, I'm assuming your 733 has the Standard-8 engine, (with pulley behind balancer), correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom M Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 Rick,Mine is the 833 and the pully bolts on the front of balancer.You can see it somewhat in this picture Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Speedster Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 Thanks Tom, I was asking the Other Tom (with the '30), I knew you have the Standard-8 in your '31. What we need is a Few More 'Toms', with early '30s cars, then we can have a Real Party. LOL Oops, I just noticed that you said the pulley was on front side, which is backward from what I thought the Standard-8 would be, since it's on back side in '29. Now I am Confused ???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 Likewise the '31 Standard we have here at the shop, as well as all 4 '32 Standards and a '33 Standard all have the same dampener with pulley in front. I was going to post a pic but Packin beat me to it. They all have six screws holding them together, tuff to see with the pulley in place but we've taken enough of them apart to remember. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 Turnquist's book also shows a Super 8 chassis from '36 with the same setup. Also same setup on '34 Standard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Speedster Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 Okay, I know why the pulley is on back side of balancer on the '29 standard-8. It's because of the Side-mounted Water-pump. The '29 Super-8 and all later models had Front mounted pumps. So if that's true, aren't the balancer bolts hidden by the pulley, on the '30 thru '34 ??? Or do they go thru the pulley also ? They are hidden on the '29 Super-8 and don't go thru the pulley. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 PACKARD by KIMES on page 300 shows a very clear pic of the 733 motor with pulley in front of dampener. According to Kimes's book the 7th series were the first engines to have the double fan belts to correct a perceived weakness in the 6th series engines. So the conclusion is inevitable. All Packard 8 engines from 1930 thru 1934 at least shared the same pulley and dampener system. Speedy, if your car is different it must have been retrofitted at some time. Do you have 2 belts or 1 on your '29? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Speedster Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 Please read my post before your last.That's why the '29 standard-8 is different.Man, Since we got goin' on the pulley thing, I've lost track where we were on the slip-balancer question? LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 Confusion reigns. Speedster, the above applies if your car is a 7th Series. If it is a 6th Series the single belt system is correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom M Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 Rick,If you are talking about the Six Bolts on the Balance they are on the outer circumference. I can take a better picture of mine tonight if you like. I have it off the car all nice and painted now… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 I have never worked a '29, well, did paint one a few years ago so I can't comment on the 6th series and earlier. Apparently the dampeners on these functioned differently. Does your car have a single belt? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Speedster Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 Are the balancer bolts hidden by the pulley, on the '30 thru '34, Or do they go thru the pulley also ? If they go thru the pulley, then the 6 bolts you have been refering to are actually holding the pulley on to the balancer, not holding the front and back halves of the balancer together? The 4 bolts, in the '29 balancer, I was talking about, hold the balancer parts together and provide the clamping force on the clutch disks between the front and back halves of the balancer and the inner part. These front and back halves make up the Outer part of balancer and they spin on the inner part, which is attached to the crankshaft by the large center bolt and a Keyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Speedster Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Restorer32</div><div class="ubbcode-body">IDoes your car have a single belt? </div></div> Yes, Both the Standard-8 and the Super-8 have a Single belt. Tom, I missed your post before about the bolts being at Outer edge. So if they don't go thru the pulley, and actually hold the balancer together, then it sounds like it may also be the Slip type balancer ??? Have you had it apart and saw the friction disks inside or is it the vulcanized type that Can't be taken apart? A picture would be helpful. Thanks,I think I've thought of a way to tell the difference. Is there a seam in the middle of the outside edge, all the way around the circumference, in yours. The slip type have that seam, where the front and back halves separate. If there's not a split seam there, then it's Not the Slip type. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom M Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 Rick,Never had it apart I was afraid to so I had it cleaned up and now have it nicely painted black.Mine does have the seam all the way around the outside edge.Will snap some picture tonight... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Speedster Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 Here's a pic of the one on my spare Standard-8. The seam can be seen in middle (note the pulley behind balancer and you can see head of 1 of the 4 bolts thru front) (There's a small gap (about 1/16") between pulley and balancer, so the outer balancer is free to move without touching the pulley. Pulley is keyed on the crankshaft, as is the inner part of balancer.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
34PackardRoadsta Posted February 28, 2008 Author Share Posted February 28, 2008 Wow, what a thread. Sorry for the late reply. I was out socializing last night. Weird, huh .Anyway, please find attached a photo of my vibration dampener and pulley arrangement. There are no bolts going through the vibration dampener outside of the pulley. The pulley itself has three bolts that go through it to the dampener. Do those bolts force the dampener to spin at the same rate as the pulley? Also attached please find the shots of my distributor rotor shaft and distributor shaft. The 'tabs' and 'slots' on this system are definitely offset and are so from original manufacture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Speedster Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 It has the seam in the middle also, so that sure looks like a Slip-balancer to me. So I don't think a timing-mark will work. I lightened the pic so we could see it a little better: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
34PackardRoadsta Posted February 28, 2008 Author Share Posted February 28, 2008 Also, here is a scan of the 7th series vibration dampener diagram from the Service Parts List Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Speedster Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 Okay, That's definitely a Slip-balancer. It's made differently than the '29, tho. You can see the friction disks, in close to center, and there are springs between the front and back halves, pushing out the 2 outer halves against the disks and dowel-pins to keep the two halves from turning independently. And the pulley mounting bolts clamp the assembly together. It appears the rear disk is riding right on the crankshaft flange. This is a much simpler design than used in '29 and probably much less expensive to make. They probably desided to use 6 bolts instead of 4 because, with this design they had to move the bolts in closer to the center, to clear the inside of the pulley, to give a more even clamping force and with this design those bolts hold everything together. But what is the large dark area close to the outer edge? Is that a rubber ring? Were there labels on those arrows pointing to various parts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
34PackardRoadsta Posted February 28, 2008 Author Share Posted February 28, 2008 Rick,Here is a copy with the arrows labeled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Speedster Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 That's Strange, what they have labeled '146998 Can't find' appears to be the friction-disks and what they call a 'friction ring' appears to be a rubber dampener ring, since there's no friction there. All the friction is at the 'Can't find' parts. Who ever made this drawing seems to have been as confused by this as We are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
34PackardRoadsta Posted February 28, 2008 Author Share Posted February 28, 2008 I put the labels on the diagram, as the originals are useless unless you have the parts books. I could not find part #146998 in the parts book. It is mildly difficult to use the book, as nothing is really consecutive and some stuff you would think would be together is not. I agree that the part looks like some sort of slip disk. I still don't quite understand the principle behind this gizmo. I know the goal, but not how using a 'torque drag' would help.Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Speedster Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 As the engine runs there are many vibrations generated. The outer part of the balancer acts as a counter-balance weight or torque-arm that puts that balance weight in the opposite direction of the induced centrifical shock pulse, since it's allowed to move freely, canceling out some of the vibration. Of course, I Really think it's 'Just Magic'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now