Used our Lucerne to start a new Camry with a dead battery today.

[variablepitch]

The wife and I were at a restaurant this afternoon and noticed a distressed couple standing next to their new Camry in the parking lot. They walked in and the waitress asked if anyone had jumper cables...I always have them. I went out and they had left on their headlights... It was snowing like mad. We've had some really cold weather this week here in eastern Washington, maybe it hadn't charged well this past week.

Oh...what an opportunity! I said, "If you'd had a Buick, that wouldn't have happened"...silence. I haven't used the light switch since we bought our car! Then I proceeded to hook the cables up myself so they'd be right. The four cylinder VVT lit off and to me it seemed noisier than the 3.8 in our Lucerne. Funny thing, they didn't thank me after all was said and done. Maybe I should have told them that if they'd had OnStar, they'd have sent somebody out to jump the car since it is most certainly on warranty...still had the 30 day temporary license. Oh well... I probably crowed too much saying what I said...

LeeB

[serb]

When the Japanese cars started selling in the US, the quality was not what it is today. I often saw people standing next to one that would not start. I enjoyed telling them to call the Japanese Embasy if they needed help.

For many, many years, I would not let a person with a Japanese car get in front of me or merge or get out of a parking lot. At this point it is probably about 50-50 for Jap and US cars but I (not all the time)still take glee in not giving them a break.

Stevo

[Guest Skyking]

Camry doesn't have auto on/off headlights??? Gezz, my 8 year old Century does. They keep buying them........

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Skyking</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Camry doesn't have auto on/off headlights??? Gezz, my 8 year old Century does. They keep buying them........ </div></div>

One wonders how many DeSoto drivers laughed at the deluded Buick buyers owning cars without swivelling bucket seats or torsion bars. I know I smile every time some sap with a Buick has to hit a button or (God forbid!) actually touch his keys to unlock <span style="font-style: italic">and start</span> his car.

You guys have really got to find a better way to lift GM that isn't deriding the competition, or worse the competition's customers.

One wonders what that couple thinks of GM and it's customers now. Can you imagine how the story sounds repeated by them, probably to everyone they know who's in the market for a car.

[Guest ZondaC12]

I know its not EVERYone of em and probably not most of em but I've heard too many stories through the grapevine of people not maintaing their Toyota or Honda because they think the cars are "bulletproof" and need not even basic maintenance.

I believe both companies crank out some good automobiles but NO one is perfect....and people still percieve them to be. That alone averts me to foreign stuff just because I wouldn't want the possibility, even, of beng mistaken for one of <span style="font-style: italic">those</span> people. But mainly everyone's got em and I don't like having what everyone's got. That and personal preferences etc...

[Guest Tom]

My father-in-law, 82 years old and a WWII vet, recently bought an '07 Honda Accord. 4 cyl, but loaded with leather, heated seats and sunroof. He and his wife came over as he wanted me to help him mount a compass that he bought at Target on his dash. I thought what the heck do you need a compass on the dash for when the car has one built in? I went out to the car expecting to show him the compass it had and sure enough, none to be found. Both my Rendezvous and Chev truck have them. We then went to dinner and he had me drive. I sat down in the drivers seat and felt like I sat down on a wooden bench. Seat was hard as a rock. I started the car and expected the headlights to come on. Nope, didn't have auto headlights either and the 4 cyl engine vibrated through the steering wheel like a VW Rabbit Diesel. Both he and his wife say they like the car, but that it is a little small. I don't know what they paid for it, but I'm sure they could have gotten a loaded to the gills Lacrosse or a very well equipped Lucerne for the same or less. But they never asked me for my opinion.

[BUICK RACER]

Bummer. My sister's in-laws bought a '08 Lucerne right before thanksgiving, in fact we saw it in the local grocery store parking lot, before we knew who's it was, and I pointed it out to my Mom soon to be 78, and she said, in not so many words she doesn't like it! So flash to the store, she runs in the mother-in-law, and finds out it's her and Paul's new car they just got it that Saturday. Flash to just before Christmas, my niece, goes for a ride to her Aunt's with grandma and grandpa is driving the car at this point only has 350 miles in a month? So I asked my niece the next day how was the new car? Well, she said there "buttons for the buttons" and grandpa was very frustrated.(this niece, only one, I have, plus 4 nephews, not driving yet, drives a Chevy Prism, auto and so does my sister, her mom, but her's is a stick, her previous car was a Diesel VW Rabbit!)And before that a '73 Chevy Chevelle that was a rust bucket straight 6 banger!

By the way, my Dad is a veteran of the Korean war and spent time in Japan, when the JJ's(as he called the Japanese Junk cars) started showing up in the parking lot at his work(IBM) if they needed a jump, he drive by and say too bad, if it wasn't a JJ, he'd help 'em. Sounds like Stevo did/does the same thing!

[variablepitch]

I probably should have been more precise with the story about the dead Camry. Just as I got up from the booth to go move my car to the front of the Camry, my order came. I'm an easy-going type, and when I said what I said, I chuckled and was tongue-in-cheek..

It was an easy start, I pulled the cables, closed their hood, they left without saying a word. I went back in to the restaurant and they offered me a free piece of pie. So I did play somewhat to the crowd here on the forum. It's all ok.

LeeB

[Guest Skyking]

I often wonder how many Hondas or Toyotas would be sold if the public buying them would look at Buick first. I bet not as many. It's like the other thread going on "crappy 60's cars. Many times it's mentioned how the 55 - 57 Chevys are prefered over the cars that offer more. People see what other people want and they follow suit. That's been the general rule for decades. Buick Lacrosse offers more than Camry or Accord and the people won't even look at them, but then again, the after mentioned are on commercial after commercial drilling the public. I can't remember the last time I heard a Buick commercial.........

[Dave@Moon]

It's been said here before, but it bears repeating. A good reputation gained over decades can be lost in an instant, but a bad reputation gained in an instant needs decades to be redeemed.

The people buying the cars being insulted here do so not because of the features or the price or the styling or the performance or cache. They do it because the 20 year old examples they see and remember are vastly different from the Somersets and Citations they also remember.

Meanwhile, instead of investing millions into a light switch that saves probably a modicum of the easiest effort in driving, <span style="font-weight: bold">they're developing drivetrains ten years advanced from anything GM can claim, & 20 years beyond anything Buick is allowed to have.</span> My father has over 600 miles on his new Civic Hybrid. He <span style="font-style: italic">still</span> hasn't put any gas in it.

I really pity people who buy a 20 mpg new car with $6 gas looming as it is these days. I remember when my mother's 2 year old 1980 Civic was worth more than she paid for it, while 1980 Cadillac owners were selling for 30 cents on the dollar hoping to have enough left to buy the Civic (as my Dad did when he dumped his new Estate Wagon to buy the Honda). Few did.

We all know that's coming again. Enjoy your light switch.

[Guest Skyking]

<span style="font-weight: bold">Remember, </span> not every Toyota & Honda are hybrids. There are still many buyers buying gas driven engines. These are the examples I'm talking about. Their mileage is the same as any Buick.

[Ron Green]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: variablepitch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"If you'd had a Buick, that wouldn't have happened"...silence. LeeB </div></div>

I get a kick out of pulling up in my Bonneville and opening the trunk and pulling out the air hose and helping someone that is stranded with a flat tire. Of course they always get a kick out of the Pontiac road kit which has Pontiac gloves, raincoat, Band-Aids, chemical flashlight, ice scraper, etc.

[Guest Tom]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave@Moon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

The people buying the cars being insulted here do so not because of the features or the price or the styling or the performance or cache. They do it because the 20 year old examples they see and remember are vastly different from the Somersets and Citations they also remember.

</div></div>

In the case of my father-in-law, the Accord was purchased solely because a friend of their's through their church has a leasing company and suggested to them it would be a good car for them. I don't necessarily disagree with that, but they never saw the car before they bought it, much less drove it. They never conidered anything else and in my opinion, overlooked any number of better options, both foreign and domestic. My comments regarding the Accord were strictly first impression, which is to say I was underwhelmed by it when I drove it. I really was expecting to be impressed by it, but found it to have it's own flaws, just like any other car, regardless of origin. The vibration at idle through the steering wheel to me would be unacceptable and I was in fact quite shocked at how hard the seat was when I sat in it. But then the automotive media would probably call the seats " firm, but supportive" and the vibration would probably be explained by something like "the car communicates to it's driver exactly what is going on under the hood".

[OldsDoug]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Skyking</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I often wonder how many Hondas or Toyotas would be sold if the public buying them would look at Buick first. I bet not as many.</div></div>

A-men. Lady I worked with had an '87 Olds Delta 88 that she had been pretty happy with, despite the typical problems of that vintage (stalling, bad paint) - stuff was corrected by the dealer early on. At any rate, they went to buy another car... were going to look at a used LeSabre at an Enterprise Rent-A-Car location... they were driving by the Honda dealer next door to Enterprise, husband says, "Let's look at a Honda", and they never made it to Enterprise to look at the Buick... I couldn't believe it! And later on they sold the Olds for $250 and I was about that...told her "why didn't you tell me, I'd have given you that for it, or a buddy would have paid $500!

Sheesh!!

[serb]

I guess I do not understand why someone would buy a car solely on the word of a salesman without knowing anything about it. Tom, I do not mean to pick on your in-laws but ????????

It is kind of like....if Billy jumped off of the roof, would you do it also? (Or any variation of that theme).

Stevo

[Guest Skyking]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave@Moon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Enjoy your light switch. </div></div>

Thanks Dave, I will, along with the many options the Toyota of equal or more value doesn't offer.

[NTX5467]

It's understandable that a leasing company rep would tout the Honda. High lease residuals mean lower monthly payments. Plus, being "a Honda", they probably used retail prices to base the lease price on rather than a discounted price. Honda's alleged reliability probably figured into that decision and sales pitch too, possibly, but then they might not have the car long enough to get it out of warranty.

The lease residuals also used to make certain Lexus vehicles attractive lease vehicles. Higher projected residual values and higher values at the end of the lease, typically.

I find it interesting that a Camry did not have "battery run-down protection" as part of the STANDARD Equipment package! GM usually positions the Chevy Impala against the Camry in their sales comparisons. In so MANY areas, the current Impala beats the Camry hands down, but things like "interior room", truck capacity and utility with the fold-down back seat, "fuel economy" (EPA ratings or otherwise), and power just don't seem to faze those who think that Toyotas are better. So, a LaCrosse would fit into that situation too!

It's also understandable that an older buyer might take the advise of a "trusted friend in the business" rather than go out to have to deal with making purchase decisions at a car dealership. Can't fault them for that . . . plus we'll all be in that situation someday.

Unfortunately, many GM vehicles have the "old folks" stigma attached to them, it seems--even the mainstream Impala. It's been said that "I don't want one as all you see driving them are old ladies". Well, you have to consider that said "old ladies" probably NEED something reliable, with great fuel economy, a model name they identify with, comfortable ride, plenty of interior room AND trunk space, and doesn't cost too much to purchase OR need lots of "required maintenance". In reality, the needs of the "old ladies" are no different than other younger buyers . . . just that the younger buyers haven't recognized that fact just yet.

Maybe it's the "four door only" thing? But four-door-only doesn't seem to keep younger people out of Mazda sedans . . . OR 2nd or 3rd owner-type Buick LeSabres! I've seen many retired people driving SynergyDrive Honda sedans, too.

Brand loyalty is GREAT, especially when we might use it to our perceived advantage. Sometimes, though, asking "Doesn't your car have a computer than shuts off the lights to keep the battery from running down? My BUICK does, plus getting great fuel economy . . . " might be a slyer way of doing it (with the hidden implication "Wouldn't you really rather have a BUICK?").

Dave, torsion bars really DO ride better than coil springs. I know that from my own experiences . . . just that you have to be keyed into knowing how torsion bars "feel" compared to coil springs. Chevy put torsion bars on their full truck lines in 1962 and 1963. They did ride noticeably better than the years immediately before and after that (even after they'd aged enough to need replacement shock absorbers). Torsion bars do cost more than coil springs, though. Swivel seats were a neat deal at the time, too, just like the record players (a more crude form of "disc players") on the center hump.

Enjoy!

NTX5467

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Swivel seats were a neat deal at the time, too, just like the record players (a more crude form of "disc players") on the center hump. </div></div>

My father was a mechanic at a Dodge dealer at the time. The spring tension on the swivel seat needed to be adjusted to the weight of the driver.

Once he was assigned to set one up for a man who weighed nearly 300 lbs. The man brought it back the next day. It literally threw his wife out on to the curb the first time she opened the door!

[Guest imported_Thriller]

ROFLMAO!!

Priceless....

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Brand loyalty is GREAT... </div></div>

But only when it's a two way street.

Most people believe that GM wasn't what it was and didn't deserve their loyalty afte a while. Many of them still believe so, and it will take years to bring them back. Absurd, apocryphal stories aside, these people are very happy with the refuge they found from the poor products they once considered owning.

My wife's best friend is related to an old-money family, but is not at all wealthy herself (college professor). (You'd all recognize her last name as a popular consumer product if I mentioned it.) Her wealthy aunt promised to buy her a new Oldsmobile every 2 years for the rest of her life. The second one she bought, a 1982 Firenza, was an unbelieveable nightmare of a car that frequently would lose all electrical power in left turns (including lights--never fixed). She's owned Hondas (except for her current Prius) ever since at her own expense.

=========================

It's millions of stories like that that has created the situation today where Honda/Toyota resale/residual values are so dramatically higher than GM products and other "domestic" cars. They're (for the most part) very OLD stories like the 1982 Firenza, but not old enough to forget.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Unfortunately, many GM vehicles have the "old folks" stigma attached to them, it seems--even the mainstream Impala. It's been said that "I don't want one as all you see driving them are old ladies". Well, you have to consider that said "old ladies" probably NEED something reliable, with great fuel economy, a model name they identify with, comfortable ride, plenty of interior room AND trunk space, and doesn't cost too much to purchase OR need lots of "required maintenance". In reality, the needs of the "old ladies" are no different than other younger buyers . . . just that the younger buyers haven't recognized that fact just yet. </div></div>

First of all, the days when "imported" cars needed more/different maintenance from "domestic" cars ended about 20 years ago. Unless you're buying something really exotic (Subaru WRX, etc.), there's no difference in owning any of them. Even my Prius, as advanced and different from the Chevy as you can get, has no more/different maintenance requirements than any Impala.

Second, just because someone is young (and I'm <span style="text-decoration: underline">not</span>!) doesn't mean they're dumb. Anybody can look at a list of specs and prices found in any new car guide and see what you've listed here.

The difference between the younger buyers and the "old ladies" is one and only one thing, <span style="font-weight: bold">the "old ladies" remember a time when Chevrolet was a proud badge of quality.</span> Pretty much no one under 45 today can. I'm sure there are more than a few reading this who will recall their trusty Rivieras and/or Delta 88 from that era with rose-colored fondness. They probably never had to rely on a Firenza or a Chevette. (It's always the high-end buyers that never left GM.)

I mentioned my father selling his Estate Wagon in 1979 to buy a Honda Civic. He grew up in a very poor section of Pittsburgh. It was one of his life's dreams to buy a new Buick. At the age of 42 he finally bought the Estate Wagon in Nov. 1977 as a model year leftover. The car drank gas like there was no tomorrow (11-13 mpg) and had structural and suspension problems. He kept it less than 2 years.

I've seen my father cry twice in my life. Once was when the new owner drove the Buick away.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've seen many retired people driving SynergyDrive Honda sedans, too.

</div></div>

This is exactly what he drives today at 72.

Memories are hard to erase.

[Matt Harwood]

The good old bad old days of the domestic auto industry will take years and years to shake off, no matter how good the product is today. They lost an entire generation of buyers with the absolutely dreadful crapola from about 1972 to 1988-90. People my age (38 in less than a week) and younger have had more exposure to the imports than older folks who clearly remember the good days of the domestics before the imports or when imports <span style="font-style: italic">were</span> crapola. Instead, parents in the 1980s were driving Hondas and Toyotas, and that's what their kids drive today.

An interesting anecdote: My father <span style="font-style: italic">always</span> drove big, black Cadillacs and has a newer CTS which he loves. But since he's used up nearly all the miles on his lease, he bought a 2008 Honda Accord to temporarily replace it. Why did he buy an Accord instead of another Cadillac? He inherited a 1994 Accord from his brother. It had <span style="font-weight: bold">220,000</span> miles on it at the time. He put gas and oil in it and drove it as a winter beater instead of the CTS for three years without a single problem--just oil and gas. He's never had that kind of impressive service from any other vehicle he's ever owned. Maybe the CTS will last that long, who knows? He is planning on buying the CTS because he really does love it and giving the Honda to his significant other. But when he needed a reliable car at a reasonable price (every option on the Accord: under $25K), he went to the Honda store because of experience, not brand loyalty.

How many of you are Buick/Chevy/Ford/whatever fans because that's what your family had when you were growing up? How many of you buy a Buick without even test driving a Toyota?

[michel88]

I am a GM buyer from the bad old days. It's a 1989 Chevy 2500 4x4 pickup. I still have it, but it is not used very often now. It has about 175,000 miles on it and it has been a lot of trouble. I won't bore you with everything that has gone wrong just some of the major items. Transmission rebuild at 100,000 miles. New radiator and 3 waterpumps. Front end completely rebuilt twice. Brake line rusted out and almost caused an accident. Fuel line rusted out, new gas tank etc. etc. The GM dealer was bad also. One time I took it in because the door handle broke on the drivers door. When I picked it up all of a sudden the brake warning light was on. They checked it out and said I needed a complete brake job. I told them to check their records because I had a complete brake job done ($1000+) less than 10,000 miles ago. They still said it needed the work. This was about 5 years and 35,000 miles ago and have not done any brake work. I never went back to the dealer again.

At the same time my wife had a 92 Honda Accord that now has almost 200,000 miles. Other than regular service the only problem had been a radiator leak and replacement. The Honda's are reliable as an anvil!

[Guest John Chapman]

Lee,

All new Camrys have auto on/off headlamps as standard equipment. (http://www.toyota.com/camry/models.html)

Switch positions are: auto/on/parking/off. If the driver leaves it in 'on'... that's what they'll be... until the battery is exhausted. In IT industry parlance: ESTO (Equipment Superior to Operator). The lack of thanks on their part implys a mindset that isn't likely to read an instruction manual, both of which are unforgiveable.

Most other equipment/options discussed in this thread are either standard depending on Camry model (base/LE/SE/XLE/Hybrid) or part of an option package.

Is it really fair to compare an inline four cylinder engine with a V6 for noise/smoothness? Having driven Toyota/Lexus V6 engines for a total of about 500K miles in three cars, I have no reservations about comparing them to the best V6 GM has to offer.

Cheers,

JMC

[Guest Tom]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: John Chapman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is it really fair to compare an inline four cylinder engine with a V6 for noise/smoothness?

Cheers,

JMC

</div></div>

I didn't compare the smoothness of the 4 cyl on the Accord to a V6. I merely said it vibrated through the steering wheel which I felt was unacceptable, especially since it was a Honda and I wouldn't have expected that from a car held in such high esteem by everyone in the automotive world. I also merely said that I thought that for what my father-in-law paid for the car (it was purchased and not leased), he could have gotten a nicer, more comfortable car than what he ended up with. I don't think he is all that pleased with it based on some comments he has made, although he would never come right out and say that.

[Guest John Chapman]

Thanks, Tom.

My reponse was to the thread opening post by LeeB. You may note on review that Lee did make a passing comparison to the I-4 VVT and the Buick 3.8 V6.

Cheers,

JMC

[Guest Tom]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: John Chapman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks, Tom.

My reponse was to the thread opening post by LeeB. You may note on review that Lee did make a passing comparison to the I-4 VVT and the Buick 3.8 V6.

Cheers,

JMC </div></div>

Ooops, my bad! Sorry John

[Guest Skyking]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tom</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I don't think he is all that pleased with it based on some comments he has made, although he would never come right out and say that. </div></div>

It's quite funny Tom, most won't........

[michel88]

I am sure that 99 44/100% of Honda owners are completely happy with their cars. My wife and I are Real Estate agents and most people who ride in our 2007 Honda CRV comment favorably about the car, including clients that are very pro American only car owners. We still have our 1995 Honda Accord with almost 200,000 miles with very few problems and it still runs and looks good.

[Sweepspear]

I would guess the reason the big 3 spend so much time on the feel of a light switch is because they always hear complaints about their switches feeling cheap.

I have always been a die hard big 3 guy.

I have had nothing but good experiences with my American badged cars, even the ones that were made during the dark ages of the big 3, but I think my next car will be a Mazda 6 sedan.

I hate to say that, but it is true.

Nothing practical that the big 3 currently make is anything I would want to drive.

I am 47 and currently drive a '92 Park Avenue which I can't say anything bad about.

Been a great car, but my son is going to take it over as his 1st car.

[NTX5467]

John, "ESTO" is an interesting way of putting it! And, that could probably be said about many higher-level automobiles on the market today . . . more things than many really know how to operate OR why they are there.

The other side of that situation is that the Toyota salesperson who should have finalized the sales transactions with an explanation of how things operate probably didn't do that OR they didn't listen when the salesperson did mention the automatic headlight operation . . . or they figured they knew how to work headlights anyway (after all, every car they'd owned had them). Plus, the salesperson probably suspected THEY knew the car had the automatic headlights on it anyway (as it was probably listed on the window sticker). LOTS of variables there that really shouldn't be variables.

I concur that the American brands typicaly lost at least one generation of younger buyers with the products they had in the earlier 1980s. At that point in time, there were few really spiffy-looking colors or trim options that added pizzazzzzza to the vehicles. The main focus was fuel economy and emissions so those areas seemed to take precedence over cosmetics. During tht "lull period", other things seemed to go wrong too (i.e., quality control) or get worse for some vehicles. Dealer service was not what it could have been either, so people searched for "options" and found them in bland-looking (but reliable) import brands from Oriental areas.

Then, when the Detroit brands started to follow the lead of the imports, THEY too had bland looking and somewhat boring vehicles as they thought that was what the public wanted (without addressing reliability or other issues related to vehicle assembly--by observation). Over the years since, assembly quality, design, and durability have improved markedly for the Detroit brands . . . but "bland" is still lingering.

For some reason, with the aero-designed Detroit vehicles of current times, there just does not seem to be much creativity in exterior designs as there was in the 1950s or 1960s. If you look at many of the middle 1950s cars, they had smooth sides as many current cars do, but it was the body contours and CHROME and TWO-TONE paint schemes (in combination) that made them look as great as they did. Not to forget about th really spiffy interior COLORS and such too!

Whoops! We can't have two-tone paint as that adds assembly complexity and expense. Can't (seemingly) have chrome trim as that adds more assembly complexity and expense (or warranty expense when it might come unattached or might look funky as the mylar tape crinkles over the plastic it's attached to as many last gen Cadillac rwd cars' trim did). Accent chrome-type trim around rear lights has vanished too (and the aftermarket trim looks "plasticy" and out of place).

One of my marketing orientations is "Give the customer something they can't get somewhere else" and give them a reason to do business WITH you. Now that the USA brands have gotten quality and other issues under control, it IS time to re-introduce "color and chrome" to their interior AND exterior designs. Having a "beige" and "charcoal" interior trim choice is really NO choice, but that's all we have to deal with these days.

It ALSO seems that modern business "strategy" is to forget about "growing the business" (which used to be a key part of ANY business plan model!) and cut things back to be more inline with actual sales. A key GM operative said they needed to cut metro area dealer numbers for that reason . . . and mentioned "Toyota numbers" as the justification for such action. Reality is . . . each dealership sales person can produce only so many sales/month/year (due to time issues per delivery . . . working to get financing for the customer, consumating the deal, and then post-sale delivery procedures). Decreasing the number of dealerships decreases the number of sales persons and the total number of potential sales which can be made. To me, personally, such an orientation (cutting things back) only concedes defeat to the competition (which is growing in numbers!) rather than working to build the business and profitably expand vehicle sales.

In many cases, the difference between a "crappy car", a "p-o-s" car, and a great car is the owner. Some people just are not meant to own particular cars or particular brands of vehicles--period, by observation. Some buyers figure price into the mix, too, in that determination.

Some figure the "dealership service experience" into the mix, too. I know of numerous situations were a dealership service depart tried everything they knew to do (with factory help!) to address a customer's complaint. The customer got mad and took it to a different dealership who fixed it the first time. What did they do? That part is never known or can be found out . . . just that it's now fixed. Many variables there, too--import or domestic!

And you CAN'T ignore peer pressure in these purchase decisions, either! Or at least peer influence.

Until it becomes "kool" to own a USA brand vehicle again (which is starting to happen), everybody will perceive them to not be as good as many import brands--no matter what.

Interesting thing is that I've seen many middle 1980s (and later) GM vehicles fitted with 22" wheels and tires recently. The same vehicles which many derided as "bad" Detroit products. I guess if they lasted 20+ years to see younger owners who are now adding tires/wheels (which probably cost them more than the current value of the vehicle) and mega-watt sound systems (in their larger trunks!), they probably weren't nearly as bad as people have made them out to be?

Enjoy!!

NTX5467

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I would guess the reason the big 3 spend so much time on the feel of a light switch is because they always hear complaints about their switches feeling cheap.</div></div>

The Japanese back in the 1960s and 1970s were famous for their quality review meetsing, where managers from every aspect of a car had to sign off on the design and quality of every other aspect of the car. This was described in a magazine article I read back then that left a lasting impression on me. It described a meeting where a few dozen people were reviewing the touch and feel of--wait for it--<span style="font-weight: bold">a Honda light switch!</span> The guy who designed the grille and the assembly plant manager (among many others) needed to approve the feel of the switch before the part was accepted.

As a result there was simply no comparison in the feel of a light switch/door handle/key/etc. between a 1980 Japanese car and a (price competitive) domestic car. The turn signal on a Civic was weighted heavier and fuctioned more firmly then the gearshift on any Chevette or Escort. By comparison a Chevette turn signal switch felt like G.I. Joe's left leg.

Unfortuantely there were some who thought <span style="text-decoration: underline">that</span> was the difference that people were keying on when purchasing "imports" (instead of avoiding Mr. Goodwrench). Thankfully most of that thinking was weeded out in the 1990s and the early part of this decade. It will be another 10-20 years before the currrent crop of quality cars is accepted as the status quo, and people trust the next Buick to be the quality car the current one already is.

Hopefully nobody used to squeezing manufacturing costs out of toothpaste tubes is put in charge and tries to do the same thing again with Buicks. Going back to square one would be the death nell.

[Guest Shaffer]

Its strange it does not have auto-off headlights, because even my <span style="font-weight: bold">1987</span> Camry had those, as well as my 1993 Camry and my 1991 Lexus LS400. Starting in 1993, the Lexus had auto on and off lights... it detected when it was dark out like the older luxury GM cars had.

According to the Toyota link, auto-off headlights are standard, even on the base 2008-2009 Camry....

"Aerodynamic multi-reflector halogen headlamps with auto on/off feature"

http://www.toyota.com/camry/features.html

"Battery-saver feature--deactivates interior lights after 20 minutes"

It also says it has a battery saver feature....

http://www.toyota.com/camry/features.html

Could it have been a defective battery and the headlights just automatically came on when the car started?

Do not get me wrong... I am not taking up for them... I will be the first to admit that the Japanese cars are not as well built (quality wise) as they were in the mid 1980s to mid 1990s.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Skyking</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Camry doesn't have auto on/off headlights??? Gezz, my 8 year old Century does. They keep buying them........ </div></div>

[Guest Shaffer]

Just thought I would add... as much as I love old GM cars and an owner of 3 (two Pontiacs and a Chevrolet), I also like my Japanese daily drivers. I have a 1991 Lexus LS400, with 209K miles and the engine and transmission are smooth as silk. At a traffic light, I have to look at the tach to see if the engine is still running. My other Lexus LS400, which was a 1990 with <span style="font-weight: bold">256K</span> when I sold it was the same way. You could not even feel the engine running at idle.

They are amazing.

As Dave said, the switchgear on the 80s and 90s Japanese cars were outstanding, very much like German cars. Despite being 17 years old and 209K, my 1991 Lexus LS400s switches are still in new working condition and have a high quality feel to them. I have always been impressed with them in the 80s and 90s Hondas and Toyotas I have owned. I had a 1985 Mercedes and the switches were very tight on it as well... extemely high quality, but we all know some of the electrical nightmares that Mercedes exibit, but luckily, mine had not been plagued with those yet- amazingly! Even all of my power windows and locks still worked!

I am not saying that even all of the older Hondas and Toyotas were without problems. Some of the older Hondas had carburator problems (before FI was put on them) and despite outstanding build quality, the 1992-96 Toyota Camrys with the 2.2L had a severe oil leak issues from oil seals! My aunt has one as a work car with 320K (YES, 320K), that she occasionally runs very low in oil! Its so funny. The car will not stop! Still squeak and rattle free on the inside! She uses her 2002 GMC Yukon on regular occasions.

I think thats another thing I love so much about my 1991 Lexus LS400... despite the age and high miles, its still 100% squeak and rattle free over bumps, as was my other one and my Camrys. The LS400s were/are not without trouble spot though, but they are still rated among the most reliable. Some of the known problems are air-suspension issues (on models equipped), electo-illuminated instrument panels are known to go out from age (a costly repair, but there is a man that puts in a new capacitor (which is what goes bad) for $350) and the LCD readouts on the HVAC controls go dark after about 13-18 years. Another major flaw on these are the power steering pumps tend to leak after 150K-200K and leak down onto the alternator, which ruins it. Bad design. Also, there is a wiring harness mounted on the left hand trunk hinge that can become frayed (it can get pinched because of where its located) and short out and causes some strange lights to illuminate. Oddly, no fires have ever been reported because of this. I think its a very low voltage thing and enough to cause some warning lights to go haywire... its a easy repair though. They have to be loosened from the loom. Thankfully, I have not had any of these problems... YET!

Another common problem on the late 80s-early 90s Toyotas is bad ground to the brake lights... you may notice when someone in a Corolla, Celica, Camry or even a early Lexus, if the taillights are on and the brakes are depressed, a taillight may go out completely until the brakes are released. Its a potential problem on any car, but its more common on this vintage of Toyota cars.

Sorry if I have rambled on... LOL.

Conclusion.. would I buy a Buick? You bet! I love the new Lucerne and the new SUV! Enclave?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tom</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I didn't compare the smoothness of the 4 cyl on the Accord to a V6. I merely said it vibrated through the steering wheel which I felt was unacceptable, especially since it was a Honda and I wouldn't have expected that from a car held in such high esteem by everyone in the automotive world. </div></div>

[NTX5467]

Glad to hear of the Camry with 320K miles. When I changed the 305 in my '77 Camaro, it had 596K and was still running good. Reason for the change? All of the freeze plugs were leaking, so it was time for the 350 I had built 10 years prior to go in there (after freshening and rechecking things in it). Oil consumption had decreased to about 1qt/1500 miles as time progressed. To get to the front pair of freeze plugs in the block, it was best to pull the engine as they are behind the front motor mounts. No special oil, no special maint schedule (especially as the miles got past 400K), and it always slept outside at night. A non-restored "survivor" that's got some visible war wounds, but still a comfortable and reliable (daily-driver) car from a prior time. I did buy it new, too, ordering it.

I DID upgrade the timing chain to a Cloyes Plus-Roller at 92K, so it was still in there at 596K.

With all due respect, it might not be a quiet or squeek or rattle-free as some other cars, BUT it makes all of the RIGHT SOUNDS and has the feel I like in a performance-oriented vehicle. The KONIs and Radial T/As let it ride as smooooth on the Interstate as a Lexus (I compared ride motions as we drove down the road) yet still corner nicely (with the WS-6 TransAM sway bar upgrade). Sure, there are newer cars that will out-run, out-corner, and out-MPG it (even some newer 4cyl cars with umpteen-speed automatics--heck, even a new Impala SS or LaCrosse Super will run and hide from it, period, plus out-MPG it), but it's paid for and still looks reasonably decent at a distance. And, with a PosiTrac it'll go well in snow and such (plus kick out the rear end in a curve if needed). After all, it is MY car as I ordered it. We've been through a lot together so it's not really an option to get rid of it . . . just keep it going with a little work every so often (usually my own work). I've accumulated some parts for the yet-unscheduled restoration.

My observations have been that when you get past much of the hype of import vehicles' durability and such, the playing field suddenly gets pretty dang level. They get points for panel fit and engine refinement, but the domestics get points for long term powertrain durability with little maintenance or attention with parts/oils of questionable reputations.

A friend used to live next to a couple (he worked in the aerospace industry and she was in an office). Her car was a Chrysler Cordoba (Vintage Red Sunfire Metallic, I believe) and he had a gold VW SuperBeetle (both bought new in the early 1980s). He complained about the clearcoat going away on the Cordoba and later having to get a cheap paint job on it . . . as the VW's clearcoat was deteriorated much worse (which he didn't complain about). Up north, the issue might have been "rust", but down here the issues would be deteriorated paint and interiors that didn't hold up to "sunlight" down here.

I have also observed that if many domestic vehicle owners kept their older domestic cars past the normal trade-in cycle, they would have discovered how durable and serviceable they really were. Instead, they traded every couple of years and their used cars got sold (locally) about five more times before ending up in the salvage yard. Some were tougher than others, but ALL were tougher than any import of that era or later on.

The Japanese trusted in Dr. Deming early on as the Detroit operatives turned him away (so the story goes). Many Detroit brands (Ford and Chrysler, from what I have read) did use benchmarking practices (as Dave mentioned) in the 1980s. In later times, though, it seems that some of these activities must have fell victim to the rampant cost-cutting activities in Detroit. It has also been chronicled that Brand-whatever cars are routinely evaluated by their competitors in Detroit (and probably vice-versa). Problem is that if anything changes, it's in the next redesign rather than the next model year. So, to get ahead you not only have to match the competition, you have to project what they'll be doing next and to what extent.

In reality, it doesn't really cost any more money to build a car with good fit and finish AND a quality feel of things like switches and door handle operation. Just doing it up front is the important thing and some Detroit brands didn't make these things happen as well as some of the import brands did (or still are doing). It seems that Ford has more of a disconnect between the various platform teams as to having a good, quality feel to how their inside door handles' "action" feels, for example--didn't use to be that way.

I'm glad that import brand vehicle owners like their cars as much as domestic-preference vehicle owners like theirs. Afterall, the mechanics and service people that keep them going ALL live near us and spend their money here. Having a reliable, reasonable, and competent repair shop to keep things running correctly is important regardless of the national origin of the vehicle.

Enjoy!

NTX5467

[Guest Skyking]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NTX5467</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Glad to hear of the Camry with 320K miles. </div></div>

When I was a foreman for a print shop that I worked for in the 80's & 90's, I bought from an ink & blanket vendor that only bought Chevrolet wagons. He average 100,000 miles a year driving all over New England selling to print shops. He'd keep that wagon for three years before buying another one. When he traded it in he would joke on how the dealer only thought it would have around 40,000 instead of 300,000 miles plus, because back then it would only register 5 digits on the odometer. All he put in them was gas & oil. Now this was back in the 80's when people thought American cars were crap. These days all you hear is how the Asian cars rack up miles. It also happens to ours......

[Guest Shaffer]

NTX - as always, a terrific and informative post! I always like your input. That must have been a heck of an engine! I wish the one in my old 1985 Caprice Estate had lasted that long. Actually, all 305 cars I have owned have not give me the best of service. My 85' Caprice Estate was a 1-owner car and only had like 97K and it was burning oil like mad. I ended up selling it for $200. I think the guy derbied it, despite telling me he was going to restore it.

320K is "low" miles compared to some Camrys I have seen of the same vintage. There was someone on the Camry forums that claimed they had around 831K on a 92' Camry... mostly highway miles however and someone on the Lexus boards was boasting about a 90' LS400 they had with nearly 700K. I just hope mine makes it to 300K.

As mentioned before, all "Japanese" cars, even the older ones are not perfect. One disaster I failed to mention was the 1991-95 Acura Legends. Well built cars (I owned one), with top-notch build quality, what with it being Hondas luxury line, but these cars had a dreadful history of overheating engines because of premature failing headgaskets. Luckily, mine did not have that problem yet @ 192K, but I sold it before it had the chance. Look around for one and you will see that 70% have "overheating" issues. Some of the Mazda 929's were like that as well.

Now, getting to Fords. I am a "GM" fan, but I also like some OLDER Fords... especially the 73-78 Country Squire wagons. You may notice that back in the later part of the early 70s, Ford boasted about its "better build quality" over GM or Mopar cars. It was true in many cases as much as I hate to say it.... the doors on a Ford seemed to close tighter and quieter and overall, the interior seemed to be a much higher quality... especially when compared to Mopars (Chrysler, Dodge and Plymouth) of the same vintage. However, GM seemed to have the edge over the electrical systems when compared to Ford or Mopar. GM's had much less electrical problems overall during the 50s, 60s, 70s and 80s. Probably all the way from the start of the cars to current.... 60s and 70s... seems like all GM and Mopars windows leak... Ford seemed to rate higher in this area as well.

Also, from 1970 and back (at least on the FS cars), GM seemed to have the edge over Ford cars in most all areas- especially build quality. The 65-70 GM cars had a nice high-quality interior. My 69' Caprice was 100% squeak and rattle free... on the flip side, my 73' Grand Ville has its fair share of squeaks/rattles, however, my 72' Caprice Estate is still rattle free. My 72' Electra had some noises, but not like my 73' Grand Ville.

Another funny thing... when we rented a 07' Buick Lucerne last year for vacation, I wanted to see the engine.... I popped the hood and was in shock to see "DENSO" on the alternator.... a Japanese made starter on a new Buick. I wondered what all else on it was made in Japan... Not saying its a bad thing.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Skyking</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NTX5467</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Glad to hear of the Camry with 320K miles. </div></div>

When I was a foreman for a print shop that I worked for in the 80's & 90's, I bought from an ink & blanket vendor that only bought Chevrolet wagons. He average 100,000 miles a year driving all over New England selling to print shops. He'd keep that wagon for three years before buying another one. When he traded it in he would joke on how the dealer only thought it would have around 40,000 instead of 300,000 miles plus, because back then it would only register 5 digits on the odometer. All he put in them was gas & oil. Now this was back in the 80's when people thought American cars were crap. These days all you hear is how the Asian cars rack up miles. It also happens to ours...... </div></div>

[NTX5467]

I concur that full-size Fords of the later '60s and early '70s had better fit and finish than many other American makes. The Exxon service station I traded with back then had an owner/operator that was a Ford guy. He had a customer (a real estate agent) who drove '68 Country Squire wagons. He didn't mind going "out into the pasture" with it to show a property. He did have some repairs from this activity (using the car like a pickup truck), but it just kept on going. The 390 V-8s were always smooth and the Tecumseh a/c compressors kept on going as did the automatic transmission.

My aunt and uncle bought a new '68 Galaxie 500 LTD. The pin striping was exactly as it should be and the "panty cloth" interior fabric lived up to its billing of being soft and highly durable. By that time, Ford had their fit and finish game down pat, right down to the smoothness of the metal on the edges of the doors with a continuous reflection line rather than one with humps and bumps.

In that era, most squeeks and rattles could be fixed with a good set of ratchets, sockets, and wrenches. Wind noises could be fixed with some sealer, usually. All it takes is somebody motivated to do these things--with all due respect--and a summer afternoon to do it.

As GM has no in-house supplier of many electrical items any more (as in alternators), you will see Denso alternators AND also Denso or NGK stampings on the shanks of ACDelco spark plugs in the Buick 3800 V-6s (for several years, now, as OEM production).

It has been said that if you love something, to set it free. Setting many of the AC-Delco operations loose to become Delphi (a free-standing entity, as Visteon was for Ford) had turned out to be not too good of a deal (although it was trumpeted as being "good" back then). Letting the outside entity fund it's own R&D might seem like a good deal (as it lets the entity work for many customers rather than just one), but as many of the former AC-Delco (notice the "dash") supplied parts to other manufacturers (power seat memory modules and automatic climate control items) already, it seems that what was promoted as "positive" really wasn't.

The Chevy 305s were really pretty good products, as a whole. There were some issues with valve guides in the middle 1980s (resulting in oil smoke at start-up, or worse). GM issues a valve seal kit which included every known small block Chevy valve seal known to man. That usually fixed that. So, Shaffer, all it might have taken to fix your Chevy was just a good, ole fashioned valve job--getting the guide clearance back into spec would probably have fixed that whole oil use problem.

My uncle bought a new '74 Caprice 454. It used oil from day one. It got to where it might take two quarts per tank of gas. When he was coming through on his way to be stationed in Las Vegas, we put the newer silicone valve seals on the car (at about 75K miles). He got from DFW to LV on one quart of oil. He was impressed (I was glad too!)!

When the "light weight" head castings were introduced on the '78 model year 305s, there were some that needed a valve job at 30K miles (they came in thinking they needed a tune-up). After the valve job, everything was fine.

From time to time, with most anything, some "things" crop up as problem areas along about the time (I suspect) when the tooling is nearing the time it should be replaced. After that "spell", things get back to normal.

The reason I mentioned some of what I did was to point out that with decent care, an American vehicle of ANY year (back then) would last much longer than many thought they would. Possibly a few repairs, but nothing really out of the ordinary. Just that American car owners traded them in before they found out how good they were (in the long run). Unlike some Mercedes or Asian make owners who didn't buy into the alleged "planned obsolescence" of American makes.

In reality, planned obsolescence might really be a good situation. It keeps consumers looking for the newest thing they can afford (think televisions and electronics and computers) rather than selling the same vehicle for 5 years with changes only in trim codes and a few pieces of chrome being different (as in many later-model cars!). It also challenges the manufacturers to move forward quicker to stay ahead of things! If electonics consumers were given the same products for their purchase consideration that were produced 5 years prior (with a new-color case), might their sales be what they are today??????

Look at the feeding frenzy of the iPhone, for example???? When's the last time you can remember that kind of frenzy for a new car? LOL, and if there was, there would be accompanying comments about "the dealer gouging me on the price!" Unfortunately, most of the "feeding frenzy" vehicles were not GM-produced . . . just yet, anyway.

Maybe GM needs to rekindle the profit center of their related businesses that they've spun off over the years? In some respects, building more things in-house (as Billy Durant had things set-up) was not such a bad deal, afterall. Historically, many car companies who had to rely on outside vendors for their parts (normal items) are not with us today . . . and those that are might not be in completely perfect health. When we had an AMC franchise in the earlier 1980s, the parts were sourced from AC-Delco, Motorcraft, Prestolite, Borg-Warner, etc., for example. Any similarities???

Just some thoughts,

NTX5467

[Reatta Man]

NTX,

Your comments remind me of the thought that often runs through my head when I'm in a junkyard; that most of those cars (non-wrecks) wouldn't and shouldn't be here, if they had only had the most basic of maintenance.

I've also 'pulled' many cars from the brink of going to the junkyard, only to tinker with them as a daily driver. And, I've often gotten years of great service out of them, and sold them while they were still running well to another car nut.

As for the original theme of this thread; there are no perfect cars, whether they are Buicks or Toyotas. This blind loyalty so many people have for foreign cars is no more logical, or grounded in fact, than those that "wouldn't be caught dead in a rice burner." The fact is, any car can be stopped dead in its tracks by a defective $9 relay or a bad $2 connector. And, more and more, all companies are buying those $2-10 parts from outside suppliers, the SAME suppliers as the car company down the street or half way around the world.

Yes, Toyota has its' problems. Did they grow too fast? Probably, a lot of car experts think that may be the case. Did they push the Tundra pickups onto the market with some slips in quality or inspections before leaving the factory? Sure starting to look that way.

The one thing that is starting to amaze me is that GM, Ford and Chrysler are taking their profits and pushing hard to make more cars overseas, while Toyota, Hyundai, BMW, Mercedes, Nissan and Honda have taken their profits and built plants here in the U.S. Kinda makes you go "hmmmmm...."

So, when people bash the foreign companies, saying you are just sending the money to Tokyo, I have to wonder why Tokyo is so quick to want to come back and reinvest it here?

By the way, here's a question for you: where does GM sell more Buicks; in the U.S. or in another country? And, if so, do you know the name of the country?

[Guest Skyking]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Reatta Man</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

So, when people bash the foreign companies, saying you are just sending the money to Tokyo, I have to wonder why Tokyo is so quick to want to come back and reinvest it here?

By the way, here's a question for you: where does GM sell more Buicks; in the U.S. or in another country? And, if so, do you know the name of the country? </div></div>

Answer to the first question, weak dollor and less expensive help.....this countries first mistake, letting them set up shop here!

and.......China.

[Ron Green]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Reatta Man</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I have to wonder why Tokyo is so quick to want to come back and reinvest it here? </div></div>

They receive a huge tax break (thousands per vehicle) both at the federal and local level for all the vehicles they import, which could be viewed somewhat as a government subsidy. For the most part many still import 65% of their vehicles into this country. A few years ago Congress was going to close this cash cow loophole to make the playing field even for American manufactures however it appears that the lobbyist have again won this battle.