1910-1923 V8's

[Rusty_OToole]

Years ago I had a list of practically all makes of cars made in the USA up to about 1925. It was compiled for garage men and car dealers, and described all the different kinds of cars, how to identify them, where to find the serial numbers and so forth.

What surprised me was the number of V8 cars on the list.

Also surprising was that Cadillac was not alone in bringing out a V8 in 1915, there were at least half a dozen V8 cars that year and 2 or 3 of them used the Northway V8 same as Cadillac.

Now I know for certain technical reasons the V8 was in common use for years before the straight eight. But after the Packard straight eight broke the dam in 1923, there was a flood of straight eights and practically no V8s, until 1949.

The question is, does anyone have a list of V8 cars of the period 1910-1923? I lost the one I had years ago.

I do recall there were about 22 of them.

From memory, the V8s I recall are the DeDion Bouton (French 1910) the Cadillac, Daniels, Peerless, Cunningham,Austin,Lincoln,Wills-St.Clair,Cole8,

Chevrolet,Oldsmobile, and possibly King (not sure about that one).

[Guest ZondaC12]

I always think I'd love to live in the 50s or 60s to hear v8s rumblin away all the time day to day, but I think I'd be happy in the teens too! Plus Ill bet back then muffler technology wasn't too advanced, you probably heard those things alright!

[1937hd45]

Rusty, back in the Golden Years of the hobby, mid 1970's you could wander through the Bill Harrah Collection in Reno and see the following V8 equiped cars. Apperson 1920, Cadillac 1915, Chevrolst 1917, Cole 1917, Cunningham 1919, Daniels 1921, De Dion-Bouton 1914, Douglas 1918, Hollier 1915, King 1920, Lafayette 1923, Lincoln 1921, Oldsmobile 1916, Peerless 1920, Standard 1919, Stearns-Knight 1917, Wills St. Clair 1922. If you Google 1905 Darracq you should find the vedio of the 1905 117MPH V8 race car running for the first time in 75+ years. One of the nicest looking early V8 powered cars was the Scripts-Booth from 1919.

[Ivan Saxton]

It is impossible to make a comprhensive list. Possibly the best person may be Keith Marvin, who may be the greatest authority of the oddities.

It you want a couple before 1910, Marmon had an air-cooled V8 about 1905, and Hewitt in NYC had a V8 about 1908

Willys Knight had a sleeve valve V8 between 1916-1919

Sheridan 8 used a Northway engine; and we might suspect that Chevrolet, Oldsmobile, and Scripps Booth may have been Northway also. I think history is pretty clear that Cadillac designed and made their own engines, but they did study De Dion Bouton, and copy the fork and blade rods which could sometimes be a problem.

Briscoe and Mitchell built V8's in 1916, Jackson 16-17, Regal 15-17, Ross 16-18. Abbot Detroit made one, but my references do not give a date.

The split-plane counter=balanced crakshaft was introduced to cadillac about 1923 by Charles Kettering, and Hutchinson who was a GM mathematician, while Ernest Seaholm was in Europe. The two notable V8's of the late '20's were LaSalle and Oakland. Regards, Ivan Saxton

[Argyll]

Hi Rusty,

The only early British V8 that springs to mind is the 1906 Rolls Royce 20. From contemporary accounts it wasn't up to Henry Royce's exacting engineering standards and the few examples ever made were withdrawn. (V8 - 3534cc.)

Argyll.

[R Walling]

Far more than you wanted to know about v8's

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V8#History

[Ray Bell]

You just can't trust Wikipedia...

You know that it says in that article that the Rolls V8 was designed in 1952 and put into production in 1959? What powered the Silver Cloud between '55 and '58 then?

One of the people who is right on top of this stuff is Marion Anderson. He haunts the Technical Forum of the Atlas F1 site, he's got a long-running thread going there on 90° V8s and gives the odd rundown on specific engines from time to time.

If you go to the Technical Forum and put words like Cadillac or crankshaft or Oakland or Hispano or Darracq into the search facility you will find the names under which Marion has posted (he lost his log in some time ago...). He comes up with some fascinating stuff and talks about firing orders and various other technical things related to V8s.

[Dandy Dave]

I help a friend revive a 1914 or 15 Olds with a V8 a number of years ago.

I also revived a 1922 Peerless V8 for the same fellow. It had a roller cam and insert bearings. It was a Mono head engine.

The lady beside me is Mrs. Laporta. Her late husband Tony had the rolling chassies stored for 45 to 50 years. I lead a very good friend of mine to it. He bought it and I revived it. The tough part was getting the engine free as mice had a field day in it and the cylinders were full of grape seeds.

[Guest dietrich]

If you want early v8's you need to look at Darracq with the 1905 25 litre 200hp Record car which raced at ormond beach.

there is also another car in the UK a GN Jap which has a 1906 5.1 litre Jap V8

[nickelroadster]

Another early v8 was the Cole which had a northway built engine. This seemed to be quite different than the other Northway built v8s like Oldsmobile and Oakland.

[Rusty_OToole]

What impressed me at the time was how many different V8s there were in 1915-1916. Somehow I had the ideal Cadillac "invented" the V8 then a few others like Lincoln copied them a few years later.

Nothing could be further from the truth. It seems the V8 was one of those ideas that had been drifting around for years then suddenly several companies took up the idea about the same time.

Something else that surprised me was that the first V8s were inferior to an inline 6 in terms of smoothness. Eight cylinder engines had a 4 cylinder type crankshaft and a 4 cylinder type vibration period to match.

This nut was not cracked until 1923 when the 90 degree crank was introduced on the Cadillac V8 and Packard straight eight.

I suspect that the solution had been worked out mathematically long before. The problem was in forging a crank with throws at 90 degrees.

I believe this problem was solved by making a crank with the throws at 180 degrees then twisting it while the crankshaft itself was red hot.

[Rusty_OToole]

Another curious fact is that the V8 was on the market nearly 10 years before the straight eight (1914-1923).

I know the Duesenberg had a straight eight in production in 1921. But the first mass market straight eight was the 1923 Packard.

It seems the problem was in getting a crankshaft that was stiff enough. The solution involved shortening the length of the engine by using a small bore and long stroke, and crowding the cylinders together in a monoblock casting.

That plus a sturdy crankshaft with large bearings, lubricated by pressure, plus a vibration damper filled the bill.

After 1923 the straight eight swept the market. There were NO new V8s between 1923 and 1949 except from companies that had already committed themselves to the V8 like Cadillac and Lincoln. Plus Ford who had his own eccentric reasons.

So it seems a bit odd to think that at one time there were no straight eights and the market for high powered cars was split between sixes and V8s, with sixes having the advantage in smoothness and silence.

[Dandy Dave]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It seems the problem was in getting a crankshaft that was stiff enough. The solution involved shortening the length of the engine by using a small bore and long stroke, and crowding the cylinders together in a monoblock casting.

</div></div>

That's the way the Peerless was. Small bore, Long stroke, and of monohead design. It must have been quite an art to make the paterns and cores for this mono head casting.

Simply amazing craftsmenship built in a day when when people took pride in their product and had a "can do attitude". Dave!

[Ivan Saxton]

I have a conrod and piston here on the desk from an unidentified V8 from before WW1. I rescued the whole set from the shed floor of an old wrecking yard at Geelong about 40 years ago. (I also git one rod each from BB Stutz and late Pierce Arrow model 80 from the same pile.)

The cast iron piston with a slight crown is about 80mm high, and 100mm bore. There are three wide plain rings with angle cut gap, and a 17.5mm pin which is fastened with a pin bolt. The fully machined conrod is 280mm between centres, with 7/16" BSF studs which are threaded and rivetted into the rod to secure the big end cap. The big end bearings are radiused on one side and flat the other,so the rods were side by side when everyone else made fork and blade; and absence of holes for splash oil feed shows that there must have been full pressure oiling.

Most engines of that era were long stroke, and with 130mm, which would be reasonable, it would have been an 8 litre engine. And the origin is probably either European or English. Some Italian cars had English Whitworth theads before WW1, and so did a 1913 Benz I used to have. It did not have to be long stroke in that era. The 6 cyl Type 20 Napier of around 1907 had 4" bore and stroke. The engine would be over twice the size of the Rolls Royce V8 town carriage. The only car that I have reference on which comes anywhere near is an Adams about 1908. I floated this on prewarcar.com some months ago, but was disgusted that the "experts" were adamant that it had to be a Curtis OX5 aero engine. It is just basic that someone who makes things in imperial measurments cannot be blamed for something made in ethnic measurement units (EMU's).

Maybe it could have been an aircraft engine that had been fitted to a car, but it must have been in a car to be where it was. Marwood McKenzie was in his mid 80's at the time, and he could not tell me anything about it.

For years when people have visited, I have handed them a conrod and piston, and asked what they can tell me about the car it came from. It is a useful lesson in mechanical deductive thinking.

http://www.members.dcsi.net.au/ies/Rod01.jpg

http://www.members.dcsi.net.au/ies/Rod02.jpg

http://www.members.dcsi.net.au/ies/Rod03.jpg

http://www.members.dcsi.net.au/ies/Rod04.jpg

http://www.members.dcsi.net.au/ies/Rod05.jpg

http://www.members.dcsi.net.au/ies/Rod06.jpg

http://www.members.dcsi.net.au/ies/Rod07.jpg

http://www.members.dcsi.net.au/ies/Rod08.jpg

http://www.members.dcsi.net.au/ies/Rod09.jpg

http://www.members.dcsi.net.au/ies/Rod10.jpg

Regards, Ivan

[Ray Bell]

No... it had the V8 from '55 on, I'm sure...

[Dandy Dave]

Ivan, I bet it gave up and was taken apart because it broke that small journal crank. This would have been the weak link in this early V8. Dave!

[Ivan Saxton]

I don't think so, Dave. I have all eight rods and pistons, and there is no sign of any such disaster. I can show you rods from an L-head Mercer which broke its crankshaft because some beeping idiot line-bored the main bearings without the block bolted down. Those Mercer rods are recoverable, but they are not straight. (If main bearings are out of line by more than the thickness of the oil film, the crankshaft bends every time it goes round. That is why I do absolutely everything myself except crank and cam grinding, and gear cutting. ) The output of an early engine like that before WW1 is likely to be probably 10hp/litre at best. And the journal diameter is not that bad, because 46mm is between 1 3/4 and 1 7/8". And most engines of the era had larger main than big end journals. And rpm was likely to be 1500 max.

I would love to know what it is. The rods are very carefully made and well proportioned.

Regards, Ivan.

[Dandy Dave]

At any rate it was not unusual for crank failure in the early days. Given the grade of steel of the times anything is possible. Maybe they're from an early Curtis V8 powered Aeroplane, or a Wright Flyer, or a european version?

Dave!