$25 electronic ignition conversion.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

voltage readings at module terminals are as follows: (See attached pic for reference)

Points open: upper left 5.04 volts

lower left 4.88

upper right 2.3

lower right 11.85

Points closed: upper left 4.60 volts

lower left ZERO

upper right 12.1

lower right 12.1

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

I made sure that the wires leading to module were at least 1/2 inch away from any high tension plug or coil wires.

Yes, timing was repeatedly checked with timing lite. A good steady 8 degrees BTDC.

Even this morning on first start up at 45 degrees ambient the engine started fast but ideled a little ruff due to a cold choke. Again, yesterday it would idle just fine (warm engine) but would fall on it's face repeatedly when trying to just tip into the accelerator.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Sorry, I'm having trouble determining which terminals you are talking about. If by 'upper right' you mean the terminal going to the negative terminal of the Coil (which has no wire on it in picture) I'd think it should be lower than 2.3 volts with points open.

Around 2.4 volts is usually the level that transistors start conducting, so 2.3 volts is Too Close. I'm not sure why it would be that high, since the internal components of the module control that voltage level, usless there is something unusual about the coil (transformer) you are using. Try testing that voltage with the coil disconnected and see it it goes closer to 0. volts with points open.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

Yes, upper right is labeled "- coil" in the pic. Just below it is lower right. They are both spade terminals.' The pic is used strictly for terminal reference. It is a pic i took before installing it into the car interior. The wire from "-" side of coil is attached now.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

So do u want me to disconnect BOTH sides of the coil or just the Negative side.???

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

Points OPEN i get 0.66 volts at the "- coil" terminal of the module when wire is disconnected from that terminal. When i recnnect it it goes back to 2.3 volts. I notice a rather large spark when i disconnect the wire too.

I repeated this test several times and the 0.66 volts is consistant when wire is disconnected.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Okay, .6 volts is what I would expect. Maybe that coil is not compatible with a module ignition.

Seems like I remember someone saying that older coils are not connected the same internally, as newer ones, but I would have to research that to determine the difference. I think it has something to do with the way the outer case of the coil is connected to the transformer windings. (may be getting an unwanted path thru the windings and case)

If so, you may try a different newer type coil. One that has a case made of plastic not metal.

How about removing the coil from it's mount so it's no longer grounded to the engine (lay it on something to insulate it, so it's not touching anything). What happens then? What is the voltage at the module's coil terminal then?

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

I'll try insulating the coil from ground. BUT i'm skeptical. Nearly all coils i've ever seen (excpt Bosch and Lucas) are painted black. The paint would interfere with any ground back thru the engine if that was required. I'll try it anyway. If that doesn't work i'll try a modern coil from my stash of coils.

It'll be sometime after midnite tonite or maybe even afternoon tomorow before i can try it.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Yes, I'm not sure either, but thought it may be worth a try, maybe it will tell us something.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

Something does not quite make any sense here. Correct me if i am wrong but i have always been under the impression that an ignition coil releases the high tension charge to the plugs when the magnetic field in the coil collapses (the electricity is turned OFF).

With the e-ign system we are using the module causes the coil to discharge when the points CLOSE then i would expect to see ZERO volts at the "coil - " terminal of the module, NOT 12.1 volts.

Conversly then, the coil should be charging when the points are OPEN and i would expect to see a full 12 volts flowing at the "coil - " terminal of the module.

Go back and look at my voltage readings a few posts above. What i have is just the opposite of how i think it should work. What's wrong with my analysis here???

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

I have not tried isolating the coil from ground yet.

BUT, the more i think about this the more i am suspicous that it is like u said the coil is not compatible with the module.

The good starting and idling coupled with falling on its face under slight load demand is typical of a bad coil, condensor or really bad spark plugs. NONE of which are the issue here. Condensor, radio suppressor and ballast resistor are removed. New AC 45XLS plugs and plug wires, and rotor 6 months ago with about 2K miles on them. The rotor and plugs are NON resistor type. Only the plug wires are standard resistor type wires.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

The way the coil (a transformer, with 2 windings) works, is that when a low-voltage DC current flows thru the primary winding (the smaller winding), it induces current into the secondary winding (the larger winding), causing a magnetic field build up.

The coil's Positive terminal is connected directly to 12.volts,

So when close to 0.volts is applied (.6v minimum), by the module, to the coil's Negative terminal, is when the magnetic field is created, but when it goes back to 12.v and the induced magnetic field collapses, causing back EFM and the spark.

It's when the Negative terminal of the coil goes to a 12.volts is when the plug fires.

And for some reason the voltage is not going Low enough, to creat a large enough magnetic field, with the coil attached.

At least that's the way I understand it.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

In the 1956 stock igniton points system when the points open the coil is disconnected from the 12v power source which causes the coil to fire. Is that incorrect???

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Yes, that is Correct.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

What may be confusing you is that, with the Module, it's the Negative terminal of the Coil that is being switched on and off.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

And on the stock ignition points sytem the points ,a mechanical switch, is also switching the "-" side of the coil off. In fact, the points switch off the ENTIRE coil as i understand it.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Yes, with points the voltage level drops closer to Zero, allowing the field to build to maximum.

The main difference is that with points the circuit is opened, but with the module it's taken to 12.volts. Which is essentially the same thing since no current will flow in both.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

It gets WORSE!!! I tried two different e-ign coils and they show 9.2 to 9.6 volts at the "coil - " terminal on the module.

One coil is a known good working coil for an 88 Ranger 2.0 4 cyl with e-ign. The other coil is also a Ford coil E73F1202 8L9C of unknown origin but it will sure throw a sharp wide arc an inch long every time i turn the ign. sw. off after testing with voltmeter.

I tried them insulated from any engine block ground as well as grounded. Still 9.2 to 9.6 volts at the "coil - ' terminal of the module. I take voltage reading with both DRO and analoug meters and they agree. Points OPEN readings.

Attacjed are pics of the two coils for reference.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Do you have a coil from a GM HEI distributor, that was designed to work with that module? Maybe they are different someway. I know the internal type HEI coil won't be as easy to connect up, but I think that's what I would try next. (I see you have some jumper wires that will probably fit the HEI)

I'm running out of Ideas, that don't involve modifing the circuit someway. Such as adding a series resistor to drop the voltage some, but that would limit the current, so don't know what that would do ???

I wish you had a Scope to see what the Voltage levels are doing at operating RPMs. We may even be getting off on the wrong track with our troubleshooting, but I don't think so.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

i have a NEW coil for the older "4 pin" GM HEI modules but i'm not sure if it will work with this one. Seems to me that someone recently indicated that they were not compatable but i mite give it a try anyway.

I'll probably xfer the set up to my mock-up block in the basement so i can put my car back to operational status.

That way i can do some more testing. I'd like to have a clear dist cap to test with just to see what is going on in there.

I also have a good B+S small engine test stand i could rig the setup to but it would require modifying the points cam. Right now i don't know. But i'm looking for another test buck other than my running car.

[zoomiepipe]

I'll chime in here. I'm the guy who came up with this gadget.

It's not the coil. I've used the 7 pin module with two different Honda points motorcycle coils and a generic aftermarket motorcycle coil. I've used the 4 pin module which uses the same core chip as the 7 pin with everything from an MSD Blaster II to something I dug out of a dumpster.

I suspect it's the triggering mechanism. Your V8 is triggering the module more frequently than my motorcycles. My 10,000 rpm 4 cyl Honda uses two coils each firing two cylinders simultaneously so it fires 10,000 times per minute. That's equivalent to a V8 at 2500 rpm. It could be too high resistence in the 330Ohm that limits current through the points or it could be points bounce that would normally be damped by the condenser confusing the module.

You could try a lower resistance resistor, increase points gap to reduce points movement (also reduces wear on the rubbing block so timing is more stable) or connecting the condenser. I'm not sure what the condenser might do to timing since current charging the condenser will be much lower.

- Mark

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

Zoomie writes:

"It could be too high resistence in the 330Ohm that limits current through the points or it could be points bounce that would normally be damped by the condenser confusing the module."

What would u recommend replacing the 330 ohm resistor with???? As for point bounce i doubt it. The engine starts and IDLES just fine. The problem is when i increase engine rpm ever so slightly above 600 or 800 rpm. I've recently ran this engine at 4K rpm for sustained periods of time with NO problems uning the stock points ignition.

AND

"increase points gap to reduce points movement (also reduces wear on the rubbing block so timing is ..."

Don't u mean DEcrease point gap to reduce points arm movement???

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

Zoomie, How does this system differ from what u had on your 240Z

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Hello, Mark

Glad you found us. We were running out of Ideas.

How about a 150.ohm resistor for the current limiter ?

We Appreciate the help, Thanks.

[zoomiepipe]

You could easily go half the resistance of the 330Ohm, but I'm not sure that's the problem given that you can't get it to run at even 1000 rpm.

Are you sure the module is well grounded? The module body itself should be grounded as well.

There could be very small points bounce that would normally be masked by the condenser when it is in the circuit. While the condenser's primary function is to prevent the points from arcing, the usual solution for switch bounce problems is to put a capacitor across the switch.

Increasing the points gap causes the points arm to contact the cam higher up on the ramp. This reduces the amount the cam moves the points arm.

[zoomiepipe]

I originally used an MSD 6A on my Z so I had to have an electronic pickup distributer. I got one off a later Z. When the MSD failed, I swapped in a 4 pin HEI. The only detectable difference was the amount of money in my wallet and the amount of time I spent standing on the side of the freeway.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

So you Never used a points distributor with the HEI module, in the Z, is that correct ?

[zoomiepipe]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Speedster</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> So you Never used a points distributor with the HEI module, in the Z, is that correct ? </div></div>

Correct. I've only used the points setup in motorcycles.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Okay, looks like we're 'Exploring New Ground'.

I'm sure it's possible, just a matter for finding the correct combination of parts.

I know for sure there is a bounce problem at Higher engine speeds. And it sure sounds like you are seeing the same problem, at low engine speeds that I was seeing at high speeds.

The RPM range that it starts bouncing, would mainly depend on the amount of spring-force in the points assembly, the height and shape of the lobes and the distance the points open on each dist lobe, but I'm not sure if the points gap should be increased or decreased to decrease the amount of bounce. The small amount it can be changed, without effecting the timing (dwell time), may not effect the bounce much at all. That was what I found when I was trying to adjust out the bounce, 'Many Moons Ago'.

[zoomiepipe]

You need a capacitor, not a diode. A more complex circuit adds a diode and a resistor to prevent the cap from shorting when the switch closes. The stock condenser is beefy enough to not need the diode and resistor.

It would be nice to know what happens when condenser is connected. It would solve any bounce problems, but it might also retard the timing. I don't know how much, but I'll see if I can find out what the capacitance of the typical condenser is and do some math.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Sorry but I don't think a capacitor will fix the problem. It will smooth out the Extra pulses (caused by bounce) but Not eliminate most of them (only the low amplitude ones). Like you say, a More complex filtering circuit would be needed.

I was first thinking about using a diode to reduce the bounce pulses, but on a closer look determined that would not work, so right now I'm back where I was 20 years ago, with NO good easy solution to the Bounce problem.

[zoomiepipe]

Take a look at this page. It has a good description of what I'm talking about:

http://www.bioinspired.com/users/ajg112/electronics/debounce.shtml

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Ah yes, Thanks, I remember using the MC14490 chips before, on a robotics project. They have about 6 debounce circuits in each IC and they are in an easy to connect up DIP package, but if I remember correctly they also need an external Oscillator circuit but they may still be the easiest way to do it, since the other ICs may not be available in DIP packages.

Found them at Newark for $4.77 each:

http://www.newark.com/45J1099/semiconduc...requestid=48806

Are we getting Complicated Enough, Yet ???

[Packard8]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Speedster</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Are we getting Complicated Enough, Yet ??? </div></div>

LOL...interesting stuff, but maybe the designers at Packard weren't too far off when they selected the Delco & Autolite dizzies.

I think I could have cleaned/gapped/replaced about 5 sets of points in the time it took to read this thread.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Packard8</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I think I could have cleaned/gapped/replaced about 5 sets of points in the time it took to read this thread. </div></div>

Yes, But it would Not be Half as much Fun! As exploring new circuitry design

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

Are we all in agreement that the " coil -" side of the module should be about 0.66 volts with ign points OPEN????

Thus far i have not been able to achieve 0.66 volts, point bounce or no point bounce. The tests are taken with engine OFF and points open.

So do we first need to determine why the voltage at the "coil -" side of the module is too high on my set up before we try to diagnose operational problems???

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

Packard8.

The only reason i am trying to put the e-ign system on my 56 Exec is to try to get better gas mileage. It's not a trailor queen. I drive it regularly and at hi interstate speeds. I like the idea of this set up that zoomie has come up with because IT IS CHEAP!!! The system is easily reverted to stock AND the parts are readily available anywhere and i don't have to pay some hot rod shop too much money nor wait for them to order parts nor ....

[Guest imported_Speedster]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PackardV8</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Thus far i have not been able to achieve 0.66 volts. The tests are taken with engine OFF and points open. </div></div>

2.3 volts still seems to High to me, it really needs to go Lower to build a complete field in the coil. Did you have a chance to try the HEI coil yet?

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

GM HEI coil not yet. I'll try that tomorrow. But the GM HEI coil i have is for the 4 pin module not the 7 pin module but i'll try it anyway.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

You saw a Big difference in the coils you have tried so-far, so that tells me that the Coil design is Very critical, when connected to a HEI module.