$25 electronic ignition conversion.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

It is 1/8 Aluminium plate stock screwed to the 3 gang gauge cluster and the metal back of the control module is is in full contact of the Al. plate. Brass scews are used to hold the module onto the Al. plate. So the module should get a good ground to the plate.

I'll probably run an extra ground wire from the plate to the engine thru the firewall to be sure that the unit is grounded directly to the engine and not back thru the body.

My one concern is that the resistors and Zener are held in a nylon or plastic electric terminal connector that i gutted from a computer. Will they get hot and melt the plastic holder?????

The plan is to mount the unit directly below the Mark IV air-con evaporator inside of the car. That's where i originaly mounted the 3 gang gauge cluster just to have an oil pressure gauge and the gauge will be returned to the left most hole in the cluster.

I initialy want the e-ign assembly to be in clear view and at hands length while driving so i can reach down and feel how hot it is getting.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

Another concern i have is that when i tested the resistors they showed correct ohm reading when i set my ohm meter to "ohms" and connected each test lead to each end of the resistor.

BUT when i connected a small test lite between the resistor and a 12 Transformer the lite would NOT lite not even dim.

Also, if i just connected a voltmeter (BEckman digital volt meter) between the resistor and the transformer it showed 14.5 volts the same as if i did not have the resistor in the circuit at all. I was expecting some voltage drop.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

I got to thinking. There mite be one catch to reindexing the distributor to trigger the module when points are closed. i.e. the rotor button lining up with the post on the distributor cap. I'll mock up a distributor tonite or tomorrow for a better analysis.

The rotor will only be repositioned about 4/10 radian so i'm guessing malalignment with the high tension distributor cap terminals will be minimal.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

Of course all of this is a moot point without a HOT coil. However, initialy i plan to run just the existing coil that has been on the car all along until this new control module system proves reliable.

I have several production e-ign coils laying around. several ford, MoPar, Nissan among others. Is there any coil compatibility issues with the system we are building???

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

Note to 6v conversions:

Most 6v batteries (currently available) for cars are only Ag. quality batteries meaning relatively low quality and short life (about 3 years). THAT coupled with a generator that does not put out much at low rpm and heavy system demand (lights on, wipers radio etc) could create a low voltage problem for the Zener as Speedster outlined in his explanantion above. Especialy as the battery gets near the end of it's life expectancy. Mite also create a voltage demand problem while the electric starter is in operation sucking heavy current.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PackardV8</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> My one concern is that the resistors and Zener are held in a nylon or plastic electric terminal connector that i gutted from a computer. Will they get hot and melt the plastic holder????? </div></div>

No they should not even get warm. If they do, then something is not connected properly. Their resistance values are high enough to not let thru enough current to get them hot. And the module should not over heat the terminal strip enough to damage it.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Subject- Voltage Drop:

If you connect a resistor across a power source, (example: a 12.v battery), then the Voltage-drop of the resistor will be 12.v, if you connect 2 resistors (with same resistance value) in Series, across the battery, the Voltage-drop across each will be 6.volts. 3 in series, each will have drop of 4.v, and so on. With Unequal resistance values, their voltage-drops will be Unequal also.

So with one resistor you will see the full voltage of the source across it.

You can think of resistors in Series, as Voltage-dividers or splitters.

Resistors are More Often used as Current-limiters, than they are as voltage dividers. Since the voltage level between them, when used as a divider, can change when the source level changes, etc.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

ok. I'm ready to fire it up. The unit is installed and the wires routed to the engine. I only have to make a connexion at the distributor and slide the Ignition feed connector onto the module and reset the distributor position.

QUESTIONS: Do i keep the ballast resistor in the coil circuit or remove it?????

Keep the condensor connected to points or disconnect the condensor?????

Connect the condensor to the "-" side of the coil?????

I have a SunPro transisorized tach on the steering column that is also connected to "-" side of coil. Will that present any problems????

[Guest imported_Speedster]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PackardV8</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

QUESTIONS: Do i keep the ballast resistor in the coil circuit or remove it?????

Keep the condensor connected to points or disconnect the condensor?????

Connect the condensor to the "-" side of the coil?????

I have a SunPro transisorized tach on the steering column that is also connected to "-" side of coil. Will that present any problems???? </div></div>

Disconnect the points-Condensor and Bypass the ballast-resistor (by connecting both terminals of it together or running a separate wire to bypass it. Whatever is easiest to get it out of the circuit), Not needed anymore.

I would disconnect the Tach until you get it started and running and then you should be able to reconnnect it.

I like to disconnect as much as possible to eliminate any possible unknown problem areas, when testing.

If you have ignition noise on the radio, a capacitor (or condensor) may be needed at coil (but probably not, since you will no longer have the points arcing), but check that after it's running good. Some older radios are very sensitive to ignition noise.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

********** BIG PROBLEM *************

Since the module is triggered when points CLOSE this REVERSES the centrifigul and vacuum advance functions. So the distributor is NOT usuable without major modifcations. OR i can not figure out an ez way around it. Unless my analysis wrong.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

I'm confused, Why are Advance-adjustments Reversed? The Distributor is still turning in the Same direction. Isn't that all that matters?

You will need to rotate the distributor slightly, from it's original position, when installing it, for proper timing, but it shouldn't be Much (less that 5 deg). And the Advance linkages will still rotate the points in the same direction, by the same amount as before.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

You're right and i'm glad. I rechecked the distributor action relative to the new point setting and there is no problem with the advance mechanisms.

However, the 5 degrees u cite is really more like 15 degrees. Dwell is approx 30 degrees - 45 degrees between

ign-points cam lobe = 15 degrees.

But rotating the distributor body the 15 degrees (against rotation) presents a problem in that it positions the rotor nearly half way between #1 terminal on the distributor cap and #8 which is the NEXT cylinder to fire.

BETTER to rotate the distributor body IN direction of rotor rotation to the next cam lobe which will be about 30 degrees. This will place the rotor button pointing half way between #1 and the PREVIOUS cylinder that just fired. IF spark is thrown to BOTH terminals on the cap at the same time it is better to have the previous cylinders spark plug firing than to have the cylinder NEXT in line to fire which would be the case as explained in the previous paragraph.

Ideally, the rotor button could be modified for repositioning. NOT the cap.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

The 15 degrees may be more correct, but I still don't see why you can't just rotate (backup) the distributor that amount, until it's at the proper position. The available angle of 45 degrees per cap contact, is still the same as it was with the points system. (360deg divided by 8cyl equals 45deg per contact)

The only thing rotating that much may effect is the connection to the vacuum-advance, if the tubing is too short to reach it, in the new position.

I don't think the rotor or anything else will need to be modified ??? I don't remember having to modify anything like that when I was doing the CDI experiments, which is very similar.

I would first try it without the vacuum advance connected, to eliminate the possibility of misfire, caused by too much advance, tho. I may have run the CDI without vacuum-advance, It's just been too long, can't remember for sure.

My '29s Don't have vacuum-advance and they do just fine, but they do have a manual control in dash that rotates the distributor when needed. Maybe that's what you need,to be able to adjust the timing from inside car while driving.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

The 15 degree rotation (against rotation) that u cite IS the optimal choice in terms of ease and reversion to points only operation if needed.

The problem is that the process, whether 15 degrees back or 30 degrees forward still places the rotor half way between #1 and #8 post on cap OR #1 and #2 post on cap respectively. This is due to the standard advance setting of 6 degrees in the 15 degree back setting vs 30 degree froward setting at TDC. The cap is indexed to the distributor body to accomodate original factory timing setting of 6 degrees.

The V8 fires 18436572. I'd rather chance 1 and 2 fireing together than 1 and 8.

I have this mocked up on the bench in the basement and studying it in detail. I'm thinking a small piece of brass extension at right angle can be sweated or riveted to the rotor button out at the end but might only try that if problems occur under actual operation.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

There a re 19 teeth on the V8 dist gear which equals about 20 degrees. If there is distributior body to engine interference then the distributor can be raised and the shaft moved ONE tooth to allow for component compliance and still accomodate easy reversion to points only operation under new system failure events.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

When i go into actual operation with this on the car i'll FIRST try rotating the dist 15 degrees BACK first to see how it performs.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Speedster</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> My '29s Don't have vacuum-advance and they do just fine, but they do have a manual control in dash that rotates the distributor when needed. Maybe that's what you need,to be able to adjust the timing from inside car while driving. </div></div>

Has anyone heard of someone trying that, on a later model distributor? It would be fairly easy to do, with a push-pull type cable, someway to attach it to distributor and an adjustable hold-down-ring-clamp with a bearing surface (like maybe bronze washers). Maybe someday I'll try that.

I need to get another car to be used Only for Experimenting with different Ideas like that. Maybe a Dirt-track car or a Sprint-car, with easily removable body panels, for good and easy access. Then set up an area where I could remove and pop in a new engine in 30 minutes. What Do Ya Think ?

'So Many Questions, So Few Answers'

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

among others:

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

I have a 56 Exec parts car IDEAL for engine testing. All it nneds is brakes and some engines/trans to test in it.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Great distributor Test-Stand in pic.

I don't think that engine, in picture, will ever run tho.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

The sectioned block has been most useful for many projects. I used it some 3 years ago to make the first wooden model for the Olds oil pump conversion adapter plate. Other oiling problem discoveries. It's gerat for tranmission/engine adapters. Other Packard uses too.

Its small enuf and lite enuf to man handle and is easy to carry in the trunk of a car.

I also have the front section of the block as well as a complete bare block on a stand that is being used for GM harrison Air-con compressor adators.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

It starts and idles like a NEW Cadillac. On slight tip-in it tries to backfire thru the exh. Not real bad, just a little bit of backfire thru the exh.

Condenser is removed, timing marks are spot on 8 degrees btdc checked with a timing lite. I moved the distributor withOUT lifting it. Rotated it WITH rotation nearly against the firewall. Only thing i've not tried is to bypass the ballast resistor.

So, it starts and idles fine. NOT acceptable above idle. It acts like a bad condensor or coil. Coil is GOOD. I drove the car and never let it get cold before i switched the wires for the e-ign system.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

The ballast resistor should Not be needed anymore, just short across it.

How far is the distributor rotated from it's original position?

Did you end-up modifing the dist rotor? (narrowing the arm contact)

Are you sure you are using a good dist Cap and plug wires, could be arcing somewhere?

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

NO mods to cap nor rotor. The cap has to be good because i had just driven the car PRIOR to the e-ign hookup about 6 miles with several stops. The engine was warm when i switched wires for e-ign operation. The PLUG wires were new about 6 months ago.

The distributor is rotated IN the direction of rotor rotation. The vacuum advance dashpot is nearly against the firewall. So, the distributor is rotated approximately equal to the books spec dwell angle. About 35 degrees.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

I did not want to disturb the ballast resistor because i want to keep everything as ez as possible for reversion to stock operation if it becomes necessary. I'll try bypassing the ballast resistor but i really do not see why the ballast ersistor should cause the lack of engine operation above idle.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Is there a capacitor connected to the coil terminal (radio noise suppressor)? If so, try disconnecting it from coil. It should not be needed either.

If that or bypassing the ballast-resistor doesn't help, I think narrowing the outer rotor contact would be the first thing I would try. (perferably an older rotor)

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

Good catch. I forgot about the radio suppressor. I'll disconnect it and bypass the resistor. I'll study the rotor position closer. The way i rotated the distributor could only allow for a spark to be thrown to PREVIOUSLY fired cylinder. BUt that previous cylinder would be at the bottom of power stroke when, say, #1 fires. Should be ok.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

ok, so what u r saying is to grind the outer tip of the rotor so that it favours closer to #1 than #2 post of the cap????

[Guest imported_Speedster]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PackardV8</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i really do not see why the ballast ersistor should cause the lack of engine operation above idle. </div></div>

The required voltage at the Module may be droping to Low, for proper trigger levels at higher RPMs.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PackardV8</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ok, so what u r saying is to grind the outer tip of the rotor so that it favours closer to #1 than #2 post of the cap???? </div></div>

Yes, about half the normal width should be sufficient.

But I wouldn't modify a good rotor before checking out Everything else, that could cause the problem. I really think it's something else, not the rotor.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

k. It's starting to get cold out there and i'm going out now to make the changes we discussed. and move the car back in to the house where it's warm. I'll report back later on tonite.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

To see a problem like 'points-bounce', which is the problem I had above 4000rpm, you will need an Oscilloscope, to monitor the pulses going to the module input.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

Radio suppression condenser disconnected from coil. Ballast resistor completly disconnected. Rotor button discharge tip ground off to favour #1 post on cap.

No change in poor performance.

As for point bounce at 4K rpm it's not an issue in this case because i cannot even drive the car the way it is. Anything over 700 or 800 rpm is nearly drowning out the engine as if it were VERY late timing. Timing checks out good with timing lite at 8 degrees BTDC at about 400 rpm.

Even still, i've ran this 1956 352 V8 Packard engine at SUSTAINED rpm of 4200-4300 for several miles on various occasions out on the interstate hiway with NO adverse engine symptoms other than hi-spped lifter clatter which i solved 2 or 3 years ago.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

so what's next???? Take some voltage readings at the control module???? I don't know.

The rotor is pointing EXACTLY 1/2 way between #1 and #2 post on the cap (fireing order 18436572). Rotor tip ground off to favour #1 post. The only thing i can come up with is to modify the rotor button to point more directly at #1 on the cap.

Not sure how i want to do that yet.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

I only mentioned the points-bounce problem, since your problem may be something similar or a defective component, that can not be detected without an oscilloscope.

I know you won't want to do it, but my suggestion is find someone with an ignition-diagnostic-scope or oscilloscope to check the module and ignition circuit. If the person using it knows how it use it properly, that is the fastest and easyest way to isolate the proplem.

Upcoming Electronics engineers, such as yourself, Need the proper equipment to do the Job.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

"If the person using it knows how it use it properly, that is the fastest and easyest way to isolate the proplem."

That's the problem, finding someone who knows how to use sophisticated electric diagnostics equipment like oscillospopes.

I have a good analoug Simpson volt meter and Amp gauge. Both came out of a world class R&D centre many years ago. I can use them to determine voltage at the module connexions. But i'm not sure what the readings SHOULD be.

I also have a DRO Beckman 210 multimeter and some other kind of German made DRO volt meter. However i've found that they are NOT reliable compared to the Simpson meters. The DRO's will indicate say 12v when there really is NOT any voltage there at all. e.g. i can run the leads of the Beckman across the top of a new battery along the plastic case and pick up 12 volt reading but be damned if the tiniest of test lite will shine there nor the Simpson volt meter will show any voltage.

I'll play with it a little more today to see what i can come up with. BUT i'll probably need to change it back to standard ign so i can drive it this week.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

The only other thing i can think of would be wire length. The module is INside of the car mounted under the glove box. I used 16 and 14 gauge wires 5 to 6 feet long to connect to the coil and points. Also ran a dedicated ground wire from the module heat sink to the coil bracket. ALL connexxions are soldered or screwed. The coil bracket for gorund shows a strong 12.5 volts using a Beckman 210 multimeter.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Make sure the Low voltage wires to module are Not laying close to the High voltage wires to coil and plugs. Could be getting an Inductive transfer from HV wires into the modules power circuit.

I don't think the length of the modules wires would be that critical, as long as there is no pulse transfer between wires.

[Rusty_OToole]

Not to belabor the obvious but did you put a timing light on it and time it to factory specs?

[Guest imported_Speedster]

He stated previously that the timing was set to 8 deg btdc and dwell was at 35 deg, which sound about right.