$25 electronic ignition conversion.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

http://www.mynode.com/2wheel/?t=simple.html&v=hei/index.html

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Very Interesting!

Thanks for the Information Link.

This may come in handy someday.

[Guest 1928Packard526]

There is an article in Vol.7, issue #3 pg. 8 of Skinned Knuckles, (Oct.'82), on a capacitive discharge ignition system built by Bill Noble of Santa Monica years ago. It has most of the advantages of the $25 e-ign. in the piece by Packard V8, but is built from standard electronic components. I can easily scan this article as a jpg file for anyone interested. It claims low point wear and superior cold starts as well.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

This post is only for changing the title of this thread by request of Peter G.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

I experimented with capacitive discharge ignition systems during the '80s and never had much luck with them. They have inconsistant spark timing at higher RPMs and I kept having component failures. So I gave up on them and went to standard HEI type ignition, which is basicly what the above website artical is using, except that it is using the original points as the trigger. Therefore this HEI-module circuit could be used on any engine that originally had a points type distributor and the points would never be damaged by high current. For more consistant spark-timing for a Longer period of time.

[Guest 1928Packard526]

Rick,

Just what do you consider high rpm? The engine revs on vintage autos are just not that high in my experience. Did you have ignition trouble with a high revving modern engine or on an antique?

The component failure might be a problem, but I can't see high revs being one, unless you race your cars. The article to which I referred makes special note to use components that are double the stated current and voltage requirements. Could your experience be a result of poor component selection?

If you used a 12V design; use at 6V could have been a problem, because of the increased currents involved.

Incidentally, I am very impressed with what you have done with your '29. I wish I had the skills and patience to do work half as good. You are to be seriously admired. Your knowledge also seems to cover a wide field that is to be envied. From what I can see, your work matches that of professional restorers.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

I tryed a CD ignition in a '56 Chevy, but most of the experimentation was in a Boat with a 500ci Caddy engine. Which was run at a fairly constant 4,500 to 5,000 RPM at cruise.

The CD systems would misfire around 4,000 and above and we could never get it to improve much after trying several different fixes. I used an osilliscope, strapped down in the boat seat, to monitor the ignition pulses, to determine the problem.

The one in Chevy just burnt up.

In the boat, I first tryed a CD kit that you assemble yourself and then bought an assembled one, but had the same problem.

[Guest 1928Packard526]

Rick,

When was the last time you ran the engine on a antique at 4000 RPM or better? Sounds to me that a CDI may work just fine on the older long stroke engines, if the CDI components are carefully chosen.

High performance on an antique is best described by reliability and longevity requiring little maintenance, not high RPM or fuel economy. These rngines were "stump pullers", not short stroke race horses.

In my opinion, if you want 4k RPM out of an engine from the 20s it certainly can't be stock anymore, and is best run in a explosion cage. The stock metallurgy and design just can't be pushed that far for very long. The engine will come apart or burn up.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Yes, I agree, All that is absolutely True.

I was just explaining the problems I had with CDI system in comparison to the HEI-module system, which is very simple and inexpensive. I've found HEI distributors to be very reliable at most RPM ranges, so the points-triggered HEI may be good or it May not. I don't think he has tested his circuit on different type engines, 6 or 8 cylinder, etc.

It would be an interesting and simple project to try sometime.

[Rusty_OToole]

I'm impressed with the work this guy did adapting a GM ignition.

But if you really want a reliable electronic ignition conversion for $25 just get a Chrysler electronic ignition module.

The same one fits practically every vehicle made by Chrysler Corporation from 1972 to 1985. The last time I looked you could get one from any parts store for around $12.95.

This is the only stock electronic ignition that will work with a stock points distributor.

There are a few other details to it. You should add the Chrysler ballast resistor. You only use one of the 2 wires that normally goes to the distributor pickup. And you can remove the condenser from the distributor, you no longer need it as the points act only as a low voltage switch.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Is there a schematic drawing somewhere, of how to connect the Chrysler module to a points type distributor?

[Guest imported_Speedster]

I found an artical about the Chrysler Ignition module, and there is also a hook-up schematic, found by clicking on the Second 'pic link' in the artical. The first schematic is with magnetic type trigger, instead of a points type distriutor?

The writer of artical had the same problem with it that I had with the CDI modules, Burning up and leaving you stranded beside the road. I wonder if the Chrysler module is Actually a modified CDI type system? (It sure looks the same)

The first thing I noticed is that it is a large box with large heat-sink (for the switching transistor).

The small ECI module would be much easier to hide (as long as it's mounted on something to act as a heat-sink).

See Link:

http://www.gofastforless.com/ignition/electronic.htm

[Guest imported_Speedster]

The only part of the poorly drawn schematic that I was confused about was the Ignition-Switch, but I think position I2 is the Start position, which bypasses the Ballast resistor, and position I1 is the Run position.

The bypass is only for the Coil and the Module pin#1 is connected directly to battery at all times (when switch is on).

(On some makes and models, the Ballast bypass was done with the starter-solenoid, not the Ignition-switch). Maybe Chrysler did it with the switch, somehow?

[Guest BigKev]

I agree that drawing is confusing the way it is drawn. The other problem with that diagram is that you would always have voltage on the wire that triggers the starter when the iginition is on.

The bypass wire is connected from the start position on ign switch to the coil side of the ballast resistor. After the car is started, the reduced voltage that feeds the coil from the ballast resistor, would also backfeed power back to the start pos on the switch, which would also be sending voltage to the start terminal on the solenoid. Why this may not be a full 12 volts, it could be enough to trigger the relay (on some low quality or aging ones) and engage the starter.

To hook it up the right way (assuming you didnt have a by-pass terminal on the solenoid) you would need to put a diode inline on the bypass wire between the Start Pos on the Ign Switch and ballast resistor. This will keep the reduced voltage that feeds the coils from backfeeding to the solenoid.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Yes, there's something Wrong or Missing with the drawing.

But hopefully the module connection info will help anyone trying in install one.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

I checked into the Availability of the Chrysler Ignition module and O'Reilly has them in 2 versions. Master-pro makes one that sells for about $15. and Borg-Warner has one that sells for about $52.

The Borg-Warner may be more reliable, but I think I would buy 3 or 4 of the Master-Pro version, keep them in the trunk, for a fast Transplant beside the road, if they fail.

Having backups of the BW version would get fairly expensive

and I would never use one without at least one backup with me.

Or maybe one of each would be a good way to go, install the BW and keep a MP for backup and attach same type connectors to both for fast change-out.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

I remembered that I had an old notebook with data about the CDI testing, during the early '80s, and in it I had written that the probable cause of the High RPM irregular firing problem was probably due to Bounce of the ignition points. (but I never proved it)

So, if that's true then probably None of electronic type Ignition modules will operate properly at higher RPMs, with a points type trigger (in engines with more than 2 sparkplugs) and they really need a magnetic type trigger, as used in the ECI distributor.

Hey, I tend to Forget these things after 25 years or so.

[Rusty_OToole]

You hook up the wiring the same as factory except you only use one of the pickup wires. The wiring diagram is in every Chrysler repair manual from 1972 to 1985.

About the reliability of Chrysler modules. I have been driving and repairing Chrysler vehicles since they started using electronic ignition and never saw one fail. I asked an old Chrysler mechanic if he had ever seen a bad one and he said yes, once. It was on a very old very rusty farm truck. In his words "the box rotted off and the guts fell out".

Now I live in Canada and I have heard of failures in Arizona, California and such places. So if you live in a hot climate you might want to mount the box in a spot where it gets some air.

I know people who have done this conversion on a flathead Ford hot rod, on motorcycles and old cars and never had a problem.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

I don't think the MoPar module is the way to go at all. READ CLOSELY the 3rd from last paragraph in the write up at the website. It indicates poor dwell control.

HOWEVER, this does raise the same question about the GM HEI conversion too.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

Rusty wrote: "About the reliability of Chrysler modules. I have been driving and repairing Chrysler vehicles since they started using electronic ignition and never saw one fail. I asked an old Chrysler mechanic if he had ever seen a bad one and he said yes, once. It was on a very old very rusty farm truck. In his words "the box rotted off and the guts fell out"."

AMAZING!!!

[Guest imported_Speedster]

I found what I think is a good HEI module (in an extra distributor), a 5.volt zener diode, the resistors and connectors needed to complete the circuit.

So, someday I'll take the time to connect them up, and give it a try. The only problem is determining which car to use as a test engine ???

I had an all aluminum Olds smallblock on a test stand that I used to test things like that. I still have the engine but the wooden test-stand it was mounted on started to come apart, so I took it apart, before it fell apart. I could rebuild the test-stand but the engine has been sitting so long, I doubt it would be usable, without a major overhaul. And I certainly don't want to do All that just to test a HEI module.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

Speedster: I'm trying to gather the resistors and diode and GM HEI 7 pin module together too for a unit. HOWEVER, the resistors seem to come in different WATT specs. I'm wondering what watt spec is correct. Seems like there is a watt spec for the Zenor too.

To all:

SPECIAL NOTE regarding the GM vs MoPar or any other conversion system. READ para 3 of the GM HEI conversion website and then read para 3 (FROM THE BOTTOM) of the MoPar conversion site. I think this will clearly decide that using the GM 7 pin HEI module is the right choice.

Questions of dwell control needs to be determined about ANY system before acquisition.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

The resistors he used (in picture, mounted in connector) appear to be 1/4 watt. You could also use 1/2 watt which are not much bigger and are more durable. There is Very low power on that part of the circuit.

There are several 5.volt zener diodes that will work, so if you can't find the 1N4733A (which has a 5.1 volt and 1 watt rating), that he used, any small zener will work as long as it is a 5.volt type.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

ok, thanx.

I'm not familiar with diodes nor their schematic representation. I assume that the diode in the diagram prohibits current from passing UP thru it to the ground???? That is to say that current can only pass thru a diode in the direction that it is pointing????? Which in the diagram would mean that current can only pass from ground DOWN thru the diode to the connexion at the output side of the 470 ohm resistor????

If that is the case then why is the diode needed????

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Zener diodes are a special type diode that are Voltage Limiters. In the case of a 5. volt zener, the voltage will Not get above 5.1 volts at the anode end of the diode. In other words, it will not let the 12. or 13. volts applied, get above 5.1 volts, and keeps it at a Constant level, at that terminal. And a Constant, unchanging voltage level is what is needed to power the trigger circuit, to operate properly.

The resistors are Current Limiters.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

ok. I'll be mounting mine (upon permanant instalation) at the INTERIor of the car probably under the dash.

What do u recomend for a mounting bracket or box for the unit????? Do we have to encase the resistors and diodes in epoxy or something????? The author speaks of Molex connectors of which i am not familiar.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Behind dash is a good place to mount it, as long as it's not close to the heater vents. The Most important thing is keeping the module Cool, with good ventalation and mounted on something that will act as a heat-sink, and the next most important is keeping water off the external components (diode and resistors, the module is already sealed). Mounting under hood is okay as long as it's protected. Sealing the components inside a box or in epoxy will protect them from water, etc. but enclosing them holds In the heat. So there's a balance of the two that has to be obtained, which is sometimes difficult.

Molex connectors are like the white ones shown at bottom of his picture, that the diode and resistors are mounted in. Male and female are connected, with 3 components mounted in the male, and the female wired to the module. All of that type Molex connectors use same type pins, but they come in various pin quantity sizes. (from 2 to about 18 pins) The ones he used are the 4 wire (pin) size.

That connector is Not really needed. It just makes making repaires and testing different values, easier to do. The 3 components can be soldered directly to the module pins if you wish.

I think I would use a small aluminum box with the module and a heatsink mounted on the outside of the box and the 3 components mounted inside the box, to protect them. And wires going thru a connector mounted in end of box to connect them together, to make the module easy to remove, if needed.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

7 pin module, zeners and 330's in hand. Waiting for the 470's to arrive. I made the mistake of ordering the 470's from Canada. I forgot about all of that Home lan Security bullshitt. It slows down I'national mail.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

How do i know which end of the Zener connects to ground???

How do i know which end of the resistors connect toward the module????

[Rusty_OToole]

The zener will be marked similar to the diagram. The resistors don't care which way they go.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

There should be a ring or stripe painted (or inked) around the diode, close to one end. The end with the ring goes to the first pin of the module and the end without the ring goes to ground (mounting hole of module).

[Rusty_OToole]

So if this module runs on 5.1 volts can we use it on a 6 volt system?

Maybe we could even jimmy up a 6 volt - ground?

[Clipper47]

YES!! Can I adapt one to my '47 Super Clipper?

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

NOT so fast on the SIX volt systems. It is my understanding from e-ign systems ALREADY developed for 6v motosycles is that they tend 'disconnect' as if turning off the key if the e-ign happens to recieve less than 5.0 volts. Something to do with the diode or the hall cell turning off when voltage drops below the level it is required to maintane. AND this problem seems to occur regularly with 6V m/c applications.

HOWEVER, 6v motorcycles, especialy of vintages over 40 years had MARGINAL electrical systems anyway. With 6v cars and bigger batteries it may not present a problem. BUT, if thebattery gets weak, and heavy demand at LOW engine rpm is the operating environment then it could still present a problem.

The m/c e-ign manufacturers (very reputable) have sited this problem and strongly recommend a 12v ALTERNATOR conversion before going to the e-ign. 12v conversions on m/c's is relatively easy since there is no starter, fuel sender, radio etc.

I'm NOT an expert in this area. Maybe Speedster can confirm or dispute the issue with car applications or shed more lite on it.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

No, Sorry, it won't work on 6.Volt battery. The voltage at the power terminal (normally 12. to 13.v) has to be at least 2.5 volts Above the trigger voltage (5.1v). So it may work consistantly using an 8.volt battery but Not a 6.volt battery.

But I'm wondering if it would operate with a lower voltage zener diode, about 3.5 volts (instead of the 5.1v). I think as long as the the zener voltage is above 3. volts or so and the battery voltage stays above 6.volts, it May work on a 6. volt battery.

Someone should try it ???

[Rusty_OToole]

I'm still looking for a circuit diagram for a 6 volt + ground electronic ignition, I already found one for a 6V - ground.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

I think the ECI module can be used for a Positive ground system, as long as the module-mounting-holes (and the heatsink attached to it) are isolated from the chassis. Just connect the large positive terminal of the module to positive Chassis ground and the mounting holes will be wired to the negitive side of battery, thru ignition switch.

You would just be switching the negative side of circuit, instead of the positive side, for power.

You would have to make sure the heatsink didn't short to chassis tho.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

Here's a pic of the proto-type i just built. A little ruff looking but let's see if it'll do the job before refinements are made.

All comments and critisizms are welcome.

[Guest imported_PackardV8]

Can i just connect the three shared ends of the 2 resistors and the Zener together at their ends and solder one wire to it???? Or do i need to run a short piece of wire between all three ends similar to the schematic???

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Yes, you can connect the 3 together and run a single wire from that connection.

Is that metal between the module and the gauge bracket? It needs to be aluminum for good heat dissipation.

If so, then it Looks good to me.