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Spark plug wires.


windjamer
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On my judging sheet I rec. a deduction for plug wires. My wires came from the local Buick dealer are the corect # as per the latest book are labeled delco and are routed in the original lomes.Outher than the fact I upsit the team capt. can anyone think of a reason for a deduction? Honest Im not trying to start anouther war,in fact a mo. after Hershey its realy laughable. Is it possable the wires should have a 1965 date (Im serious)? Could this be a fair deduction?

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Diz please dont get Shop rat mixed up with the team that judged me at hershey.I have talked with her here on the forum and find her VARY compatent and im sure fair. As for the team at hershey, my wife says I have no finase,frends say what ever the job I get it done I guess I pis-ed him off royal. Stuff happens.

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Ted &32 Im not trying to be a smart ass, after leaving the service I drove truck for a year or two and then helped to start an auto repair shop. This was in 67. I have worked at that shop and ordered parts ever since. These are black plug wires with the carbon center.They are made by delco labeled delco and apear identical to the original wires I took off.Only diff. is they are clean.I have never seen plug wires with a date, but have been told they used to come that way. Maby by the time I done a t/u on a cust. car the date was worn off, I dont know, I do know if it comes from the dealer has the corect part # by the Manufactors book is instaled proper,it should not be a deduction.

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Again, if they were identical to the ones you removed were the ones you removed original to the car or, as is likely, were they replaced at some point with more modern wires? Were carbon core wires used in 1967? What markings were on the wires? Are the wire end boots the same as came on the car in '67? Even if they came from the dealer with Delco markings and fit your car they are not necessarily "as original". I can't imagine an AACA judge looking for a date on ignition wires. Do you have the wires that were on the car when it arrived at the dealership to compare to the wires you purchased? Are there extraneous markings on the wires such as bar codes or anything else that would make them stand out as modern replacements? Those are the kinds of questions that would be going thru my mind if I were judging the car.

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: windjamer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Diz please dont get Shop rat mixed up with the team that judged me at hershey.I have talked with her here on the forum and find her VARY compatent and im sure fair.</div></div>

Thanks windjamer. Being fair to each and every owner is number one on my list. Right there next to doing the best job I can whether I am a field judge or a Captain.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...I pis-ed him off royal.</div></div>

Check it out Diz, windjammer said "him" not "her".

(I do know that you are just busting my chops for the fun of it. But you better be careful if I ever offer you some homemade fudge. smirk.gif )

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AACA has removed "Other" from most/all of judging forms over the last few years. If you see something that needs a deduction you have to put it in the closest category. Is there anything that could be associated with the ignition wiring, like coil wire or something else?

I would guess it has modern markings on the wires.

Are we talking a point or 2 or a big deduction?

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Dont say you were not warned Diz.My xwife had a cousin, would walk in the house sit at the table and empty a candy bowl cookie jar,what ever. Never say may I or thanks. One day he called an said he was coming over. She busted her butt to make a pan of fudge.Took it off the stove just as he came in. Cut it in nice pieces and put it on the table. Only problem was she used exlax insted of choc. You know the rest of the story.

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Dearest Susan,Me being 53 when at Hershey i occasionally visit the FIRST class portable facilities and i ALWAYS leave a tip.THAT being said sounds to me like you want me to miss the entire show.HOW did you know i LOVE fudge with walnuts of course.diz

(I do know that you are just busting my chops for the fun of it. But you better be careful if I ever offer you some homemade fudge. smirk.gif )

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DizzyDale</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">THAT being said sounds to me like you want me to miss the entire show.</div></div>

Naw, not me. Honest. grin.gif

HOW did you know i LOVE fudge with walnuts of course.diz</div></div>

English or Black?

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Dear Susan,In 1944 when the Germans demanded surrender and Brigadier General Tony McAullife responded with NUTS did ANYONE ask him English or Black?Do YOU really think i would know the difference?Thanks for asking.I gotta go change the oil in my old van before i go to work,just thought i should say SOMETHING Antique Auto related.Take care.diz

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In response to windjamer’s ignition wire problem.

(I know Mopars very well, but do have some knowledge about GM and Fords too.)

From the factory, auto makers often used much different parts than you would buy at the dealer. A good example is ignition wires. From the factory, Chrysler car wires simply had a date code, a Chrysler emblem, and a part/vendor number. If you bought wires at the dealer, they would be stamped “Mopar”.

In windjamer’s case, the Delco marked wires would be from the dealer and likely this is why there was a deduction. If memory serves me, “correct” wires for a GM car of his vintage would be marked “Packard” as that is who made the factory installed pieces.

My guess is that "delco" parts are service replacements, like Mopar parts are.

Just because you buy a part at the dealer, does not make it a correct part for factory appearance. They may fit and function…but they most often look completely different. (At least for Mopars, the only part under the hood that left the factory with the Mopar name was the battery.)

One company that makes these reproduction wires is Lectric Limited.

Hope this helps.

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Matt you are correct about packard wires, they where and are a major manufacture of vech wires.AS for my plug wires they are a factory auth. replacement with both a delco and a factory part #. As so they should be acepted as original with no point deduction. If not then I would guess that less than ten% of award wining cars would deserve there award. How many radiator hoses have you seen with GM stamped on them they did not have that stamp when they left the fac. How about heater hose same thing. Original hose clamps believe it or not had a date on them, should we chk. all; clamps today for the date? Tires all left the fac with a dot #, how many cars do you think have the correct dot number today? Im sorry, bottom line my car over heated after over a hr.& a half in line and stalled a hundred yards from the class. IT WAS ON THE SHOW FIELD, I asked the team capt to judge it where it was and he didnt like it. I also told him that it boiled over and sprayed coolent all over the engine comp. and not to take points off because of that. I informed him that I had lost points for my fuel supply In Binghamton and I had documentation that the fuel supply was correct, If he wanted to see it. Bottom line I was upsit, I pis-ed him off and he got evan. To me thats chichen shi- judging and he needs to go back to school.I would realy like him to look me in the eye and tell me how he can justfy not taking a deduction on a car in the class with an incorrect master cyl. and he knew dam-well it was wrong. His comment, I let it slide I think its a safty issue

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Ted without being aurgumentive the judgs manual says any feature, option or accessory shown in the original factory catalog sales literature OR company directives will be accepted. This could turn into a real pandoras box,but I would prefer to see a fac. auth.part compaired to a hose sold by Bobs repo. with big GM letters on it.

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Dear windjamer,I UNDERSTAND your frustrations that day on the showfield[sounds alot like me before the :)anger management classes, fistfuls of Zoloft and jailtime :)ANYWAY sounds like EVERYONE SHOULD have been a little more understanding.IMHO single mark shows ie Early Ford V8,NCRS are the place where numbers and date coded parts are REALLY scrutinized.As far as the AACA is concerned CORRECT parts and parts that have the CORRECT appearance are a MUST,correctly dated parts are another story,i think should be left to the individual mark shows.diz

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I surely do not want to turn this thread into an argument, but I think the AACA is looking for originality.....not replacement parts.

While I understand your point windjamer, I still contend that the deduction was taken because your wires are modern replacements.

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding is that Delco parts are like Mopar parts. They are service replacement parts sold at the dealer. To that end, it is also my understanding that the factory installed radiator hoses were indeed marked "GM" with a part number.

Over the course of years, original part numbers are often superseded to a part that may indeed fit and function, but may no longer hold a resemblance to the factory part. I know that on my ’72, there is a heater control valve that looks nothing like the original. The original is made of metal, yellow zinc plated, and attached to the inner fender. The replacement part available at the dealer is made of plastic and simply hangs inline with a heater hose. Wouldn’t using this replacement part be worthy of a deduction?

I’d agree that the AACA should not be concerned with date coded wires, glass, etc. As a club that welcomes all makes and models, the AACA and it’s judges cannot be expected to know all the tiny nuances of each car. However, if I attend an all Mopar show, I would expect these things to checked.

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Im not saying I lost points on my wires because they had no date I simply asked if that was possable. I spent ten years on that car.I disasembled every nut bolt and screw. It is not and never will be a 400 point car.NO ONE knows that car better than I,its a 380+ maby on a rainy day 385 if the judge is in a hurry. The sheet wasnt all that bad, I agree with most but not all of the deductions. Would I take the same deductions where I judging the car? Yes, all but one except for the engine compartment. I had a deduction for horns in the compartment looking da-- close I found a paint chip, ok, Ill give him that one, dam- picky,but still a paint chip on the horn.outside of the chip there should have been no deductions in that aeria. I cleaned the mess over heating caused, Ill paint or replace the horn. I flat ass refuse to change those wires and you can bet Mr mcgraw will see them if I can make the spring meet. I want some one that writes the manual to tell me what the heck is wrong with them. If as was suggested it because they are dealer replacement and not factory original then look out world. Here come the judge. The outher item I disagreed with was exterior. The 65 skylark never had a side marker lite

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: windjamer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

The 65 skylark never had a side marker lite </div></div>

If you look closely at the judging form there is a / between side and parking (not marker) light. That is so that it can be used in an either/or situation rather than have to put it under "other". Just like two lines down is driving/fog so that line can be used for either one.

So my guess is you lost points on a parking light(s) since your car does not have side lights.

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Here's one more "view" on this topic. I think we'd all agree that modern halogen headlights would be incorrect for the vintage of vehicle we are discussing.

Going to the dealer and buying a replacement headlight would get you a halogen, modern headlight. No doubt it would cast better light....as well as fit...but it would be worthy of a point deduction as it is not "factory". I'm not an expert in GM products, but know that for certain years a T3 headlight needs to be in place for correctness.

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Matt M, PA</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...but it would be worthy of a point deduction as it is not "factory".</div></div>

Actually it is a mandatory 10 point deduction for even one Halogen bulb. It does not matter if you have one or up to four. The deduction is the same.

There is a one point deduction for non-matching headlights. They must match by brand and era within the brand. (ie. Don't mix GE and General Electric as they are from the same brand but different eras.)

I'm not an expert in GM products, but know that for certain years a T3 headlight needs to be in place for correctness. </div></div>

Actually as of right now there is no deduction for lack of T3 headlights. While they are now available as reproductions of the orginal T3s, at one time they were so hard to find that the AACA stopped requiring them. This was debated on another thread (I just bumped it back to the top so that you can find it easily.) and it is my understanding that this issue will be re-addressed in February. And a decision will be made at that time for future shows.

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Matt 2007 is behind us and thats where I would like to see this subject. I look forward to 2008 and will revisit this subject at that time. Untill then just some food for thought.Page 23 of the manual tells me MODERN batterys are ok if they are visually of the year of vech. manufacture Page 21 says painted and evan stainless steel exhaust systems are ok.Page 17 says do not remove an item to check an item but page 20 says seat covers are ok and you should ask the owner to remove thim if you think they cover a deduction. Come on, I know Im a bull head, but give me a brake. You realy think the deduction on my DEALER AUTHORIZED pulg wires is NOT Nit Pickin???? Susan, with ref. to thanks giving thread. 1958 found me at Ft Benning GA. A sign in the mess hall said good food neutrious food take all you want EAT what you take. This yank. (me) loaded his plate with eggs bacon pancakes and a huge bowl of cream of wheet. (I thought) I should have been a little suspious as I poured milk and sugar on it and all the rebs looked at me strange. Today I do like grits, but I eat them with butter salt and pepper, Now you have your laugh for the day. Happy turkey day all.

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: windjamer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Susan, with ref. to thanks giving thread. 1958 found me at Ft Benning GA. A sign in the mess hall said good food neutrious food take all you want EAT what you take. This yank. (me) loaded his plate with eggs bacon pancakes and a huge bowl of cream of wheet. (I thought) I should have been a little suspious as I poured milk and sugar on it and all the rebs looked at me strange. Today I do like grits, but I eat them with butter salt and pepper, Now you have your laugh for the day. Happy turkey day all. </div></div>

I also like them very much, if they are properly cooked, with butter, salt and pepper. But trust me, you are not the only one to eat them with milk/cream and sugar. There are plenty of folks that eat them that way as a hot breakfast cereal like Cream of Wheat or Cream of Rice.

Many years ago my dad, a newspaper columnist and editor, wrote a story about grits, part of which was is <span style="font-weight: bold">grits</span> singular or plural? At the end of the story he wrote, "I don't know if it's grits is or grits are, all I know is they're h**l to pick." wink.gifgrin.gif

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windjamer...I agree 100% that what's done is done. 2007 is past and we have a 2008 show season to look forward to.

You are correct that a battery may be of modern manufacture...but it has to look like the original equipment battery. Again, I think this is an area where the ignition wires fall.

All the best to all!

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Mc thank you. That is a nice to know web site. I will order a set of those wires if I ever have a vech. worthy of being entered in a nat. concores show.Till then let me see,, One point for each plug wire that dosent have the date up to a deduction of ten. Tempting, vary tempting,I just cant be that big of a rear end orface. Dick

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Unless things have changed at Lectric Limited the wires I bought were exact replacements for the factory wires less the date code. Date codes are not a requirement for AACA judging. The cost of these wires were not that much more then putting something close or incorrect on.

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Ron with all due respect i looked at the catalog for Lectric Limited. They show two sets of ign. wires,One an exact copy w/date code and a very good REPLACEMENT set w/out the date code.I understand you bought the v/good set with out the date.Now im confused. If they are not exact copys w/the date then they are not factory original. Mabyso you splane me WHAT THE HEL- MAKES THEM BETTER THAN MY FACTORY AUTH.REPLACEMENT DELCO WIRES????

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If I may....

I did not even realize that Lectric Limited made the "less authentic" wires. (At least for Mopars, they only make exact reproductions)

When I originally posted, I was referring to the exact copies. Anything less...in my opinion...would not be 100% correct.

When I look at the samples of each version, I see the big difference between the two. The only reason I can imagine that would make the "lesser" wires more correct than modern Delco wires would be the "Packard" lettering...even though it is not the same lettering or marks as factory.

At least on their site, Lectric Limited does not call their "replacement" wires correct. In fact, they call them "closer" to original.

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Thank you Matt. With that said let me go back to my original point. Deductions for my ign. wires was pay back,pure and simple. I also think it was childish and though it wont stop me it was NOT in the best intrest of all .I truely think it was nit pickin and I think 99% of our judges would agree with me INCLUDEING Hulan.

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Payback from whom? The Team Captain? He is not the one who takes the deductions. It was the Engine Judge who presented the deduction to the Team Captain. I think your car was likely judged fairly. You were just unlucky enough to have an Engine Judge who was knowledgeable enough to recognize that your ignition wires were not as the car left the factory. I see no evidence of a conspiracy in anything you've told us. If I had judged your car and had recognized the wires as being incorrecrt I certainly would have taken the deduction. If it were "nitpicking" there would not be a space on the judging sheet for "Spark Plug Wires".

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32 you and I could kill 2 large pots of coffee or maby a 12 pk of coors lite talking about this and you would not change my mind.Though I disagree with you you surely have a right to your opinion and I respect YOU and your OPINION. I hope you can give me the same curtasy.As for my wires ,Im not from Missiouri, but spent ten days at the moog school there, show me why there wrong. Dick

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My plug wires are correct however I am unsure if they had date codes on them in 55. AACA does not check date codes as they would take days to judge a show the size of Hershey. I have managed 3 grand national seniors with these wires so I must assume they are correct.

Watch what some dealers consider an "authorized replacement part". When my transmission went on my tow mule while on the road I specified a larger transmission cooler be installed. I also stated that the cooler had to be a factory GM part and not something made in China, no options. The GM part was also more $. When I picked it up something didn't look quite right. Low and behold my "authorized replacement part" was bought from the local Advance Auto.

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