Status of '29 645 Sport Coupe Restoration Project

[Guest imported_Speedster]

I've never had any desire to enter cars in Show competition. For me it's only a Hobby. It's the challenge of taking a pile of rusty parts and making a complete operating machine, as close to the original configuration as I can get with my limited knowledge and budget.

[Tom M]

Rick,

You sure do have talent from what I can see from what you started with.

Keep it up.......

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Thanks for the Encouragement.

I won't GiveUp on it. I just need a break to work on something else for awhile, that I want to finish.

[bernardi]

Let me add encouragement, too. I haven't put as many hours into restoration as you, but there have been lots of frustrations. Taking a break before attacking a vexing problem usually yields good results.

The ship model sounds interesting. I'm about to attack an RC airplane model.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bernardi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The ship model sounds interesting. I'm about to attack an RC airplane model. </div></div>

This is the Ship I'm building (the Amerigo Vespucci). Its Radio-control with onboard TV-camera. I'm about ready to start on the sail and standing rigging. The hull and decks are almost completed.

[Tom M]

Wow she looks like a beauty. Are you going to have scaled down men on the Sail post like your attached picture

[Guest imported_Speedster]

LOL, No Sorry, I'll be the Only Crew member.

Yes, the A.V. is a great ship. It's still being used as a Training ship in the Italian Navy.

[bernardi]

Thata ship is a lot more complicated than my airplane! Wow!

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Yes, this is my 16th RC Ship model and it's definitely the most Complicated one I've done, since there are so many deck fittings to make. The rigging will be difficult and take a lot of time, but will be easy compaired to all the small complicated fittings.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Well, we have great weather today, and I couldn't Stand the Suspense any Longer, so I took the head off.

But so far I've Not been able to find the problem.

There was a very slight bit of rust at the #4 and #8 cylinders valves. The head gasket appears to be in very good condition with No discolorations to indicate a leak.

I made a very close inspection of the head and top of block and found No cracks, with a magnafying glass.

So the leak must be down at the bottom of block somewhere.

I'll take the valve cover off side of engine next, to inspect there. I think I'll fill the block with water, with the head off, and see if the water level goes down. Maybe that will tell me something.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

I pulled the valve cover and saw No water there.

I then filled the block with water and So far the water level has Not dropped any. I'll leave it overnight and see if there is any difference.

I had my wife check the top of block and head for cracks, and she found none, either.

I'm starting to think that the sandwich type head-gasket, I used, can't seal well enough, with that High-compression head 'A Huffen an' Puffen'.

I may have to try a solid type gasket with something like copper-coat sealer on it? Or should I try 'Something Completely Different'?

[Guest imported_Speedster]

I think I'll call Olson's-Gaskets (who I got that one from) tomorrow and see what they say would be the best to use.

I know the sandwich type was used originally but maybe with that special head I need something different to seal it properly. I'm afraid I'll crack something if I exceed the 60 ft.lbs. torque on the head bolts.

Anyone have another good and less expensive Source for head gaskets?

[Earl B.]

Speedster, you can check with Paul Terhorst. His email is in your private mailbox. At one time I think Paul had access to McCord racing gaskets.. which with your HC head might be good.... He is quite knowledgeable on gaskets also.

I'm sure Max Merrit and Kanter would have head gaskets also.

Good luck, and I hope you find that leak!!...B

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Thanks for the Info, I'll contact Paul and see what he says.

Someone told me that both Max Merrit and Kanter get their gaskets from Olson's, also.

I guess any Good gasket, with Copper in it, is going to be expensive, since the cost of copper has gone up so much recently. That's another reason I was thinking about trying a solid fiber type next time?

[Restorer32]

Doesn't sound like your problem is gasket related. Good advertisement for magnafluxing engine blocks before rebuilding. Surprising sometimes where cracks show up. The fact that water doesn't leak down with the engine cold doesn't mean much. A crack would likely open up as the engine warms up allowing water to leak into the oil. Just my thoughts.

[Earl B.]

Speedster, I think I'd be going with Restorer's advice.. find someplace in your area that does Magnafluxing.. No need to keep on going until you find the crack..B

[Restorer32]

Even the "High Compression" head is still very low compression compared to modern engines. Assuming you had the head planed and the block checked for flatness (with the studs removed) you shouldn't have any problems getting the head gasket to seal. There is nothing about the HC head that would make it any more difficult to seal than the standard head. It just has a bit smaller combustion chambers.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

The water level went down slightly in block overnight but could have been from evaporation.

I haven't drained all the oil yet, so I'll do that next, and then do some testing for leaks in lower block.

I've done magnaflux testing on engine blocks. I have a Black-light but I'll need to get some more Iron-oxide solution. (I used it all years ago). Magnafluxing the head would not be difficult.

Magnafluxing allows you to find cracks fast and easy, but you need to have the part to be tested off the engine, since you don't what the Iron-oxide getting down in the engine. And I certainly don't want to completely disassemble the engine, if the problem is only a Head-gasket.

It's been my experience that any crack found by magnafluxing can be seen with a magnafying glass, as long as the part is clean. It just takes longer to do the visual inspection that way.

If there is a crack inside the block if would be difficult to see even with a Black-light. And if it's there I'll probably Junk the thing anyway.

[Johan Boltendal]

Speedster, seal your water outlets at the top of the engine,

steel or wood plates, with rubber on the bottom, will do the job, plug your water outlets and make a tool that will allow you to presurize the block or head for that matter, you will find your crack or leak in no time with this methode and it will not harm any thing. Good luck Johan

[Guest imported_Speedster]

I had thought about doing something similar by putting the head back on, connecting the inlet and outlet, that go to radiator, with a long hose and connecting the heater inlet and outlet with another hose. Then pressurizing the water cavities with air thru a T-fitting in the heater hose. But the problem is being able to see a leak if it is Internal, and it has to Be somewhere Internal, if it's not the gasket. That test may tell if there is a leak or not but with the engine all sealed up how am I going to be able to tell where the leak is?

[Guest imported_Speedster]

I talked to Sandy Olson at Olson's gaskets, and I didn't learn much, except that he also thinks a Solid type gasket would probably make the problem worse, and the sandwich type is the best way to go.

So I may put the head back on with copper-coat sealer sprayed on the gasket, but first I'll do some more visual inspections. Maybe I'll try the black-light without the solution applied. Sometime cracks will show up that way since antifreeze fluoresces slightly.

[Johan Boltendal]

It is a methode that will not work when the engine is put together again, as you say, you will not be able to find the leak when the engine is assemled.

The head is sealed by this method and is put in water, so you can see where the bubbles come from, or better not as it should. The same should be the case with the engine, this being assembled and in the chassis, you seal the water opening at the top and buy a colored smoke canister from a convenient store and pressurize the sealed block, you will see the colored air evaporating at the crack or leak.You might want to try highly soaped water as well, filled in the block before testing, gives nice bubbles and will remind you of your youth perhaps. Let me know how it works out. Johan

[Guest imported_Speedster]

I'm pretty sure the leak is Not a cracked Head, since the head on these engines are so simple, with all water cavity surfaces exposed to view, so the leak has to be at the gasket or in the block. And since there was No evidence of water behind the valve cover, I'm starting to think it was just the head-gasket leaking, down past the piston-rings into oil-pan.

I Hope, I Hope, I Hope!

If that's true then what is the best way to seal the head-gasket? I've used Permatex Copper-seal spray, with Good results, on other type gaskets but never on the head. I may try that, since I don't know of anything better to use on a head-gasket?

I'll have to use my monthly budget just to refill the thing with Oil. (It must take a 100 quarts to fill it)

[Restorer32]

You did plane the head before installation?

[Johan Boltendal]

I can see your hope, but doubt it, if the water had gone down the way you said, there must be evidence on the gasket,the cylinder wall(s) and piston(s), white spots, water residu,fly rust on the wall, this rust develops within hours,ther must be a trace.

Better build yourself a pressurize system to begin with, this way you will KNOW, instead of assuming this and that.

Normally a headgasket seals without any extra's and 60 pound should do. I've expirienced with the '30's Cadillac's, 50 to 55 is sufficient.Certainly, a flat head and block surface (zero tolerance) are evident. Johan

[Guest imported_Speedster]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Restorer32</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You did plane the head before installation? </div></div>

No, but I did carefully check it with a good metal straight edge, (with a light behind it) and found no warps or dips.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Johan Boltendal</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> if the water had gone down the way you said, there must be evidence on the gasket,the cylinder wall(s) and piston(s), white spots, water residu,fly rust on the wall, this rust develops within hours,ther must be a trace.

</div></div>

There was slight rust around the #4 and #8 cylinders Valves and seats, but that is the only place I've found any rust. (Where it shouldn't be)

I only recently got the radiator recored, so there hasn't been any water in it until recently. It couldn't have been leaking Much, If Any, before taking the radiator out, since I didn't notice the problem then. (I would have noticed the oil-level gauge going up, since I always check it before starting engine.)

I had just run the engine for a long time the day before finding the water in oil, so any rust on cylinder walls, etc. may have been cleaned off then. A lot of water came out of the head when I took it off, so I couldn't tell how much of the water on top of block and down in cylinders was there before or came out of the head.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

I think Permatex has changed the formula of the Copper-coat-sealer. This new can has less copper particals and more sticky adhesive. I don't like it as much as the old formula. Before it would dry more and not pick up dirt, etc. while putting it on.

Before I could spray it on, let it dry for a few hours, and then not worry about handleing it or it picking up trash, but Not Now. I'll need to put it in a plastic bag or something until I'm ready to install it, and hope it doesn't permanantly stick to the bag.

I guess they are cutting back on the expensive Copper like everyone else.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

I removed the oil-pan drain-plug and the Oil-pump-screen Yesterday and Muddy oil is Still dripping out. I think I'll pour in some Kerosene and let that flush it out a little quicker?

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Well the Kerosene seemed to just flow right past the Muddy oil, without cleaning much out.

Guess I'll have to let it 'Drip Dry' a few days.

I'll just put in 4 or 5 quarts to re-test after getting it back together, then drain that out, before filling it completely, if the leak goes away.

Of course I'll recheck for leaks, by filling it with water and let it sit a few days, before putting Any oil in it, but not before starting it.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

I put the head back on, with a thin coat of copper-coat sealer on all surfaces, and filled it with water.

I've let it sit overnight and there is No water in drip-pan, under the Oil-pan, and level in radiator is still the same. I think I'll let it sit a couple more days before putting any antifreeze in it, which is more likely to leak than pure water. Then I'll wait a few more days before putting any oil in it, if no drips show up.

Of course the real test will be letting the engine run for a while. (I hope all the Sealer doesn't gum up the valves) LOL

(Now that I think about it, It started leaking when I put in the Antifreeze, after getting the radiator recored, since I saw no evidence of a leak and I had never put in any antifreeze, before that).

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Well, the water level at radiator neck is down about a half inch this morning, which is probably about 2 ounces lose. There was about 3 drops of water in the drip pan, but there was a lot of muddy oil still dripping out also, so those 3 drops may be from the previous leak.

So if it is still leaking, the water must be setting on top of the pistons, since more water is missing from radiator than dripped into the pan. Or maybe I have a slow External leak now, at hose or something ???

I don't know what to try next, if there is still an internal leak, unless it's try a different head gasket. Maybe this one is just Not made correctly to seal properly, since there's not much space between cylinder walls and some of the water passages? (Which Sandy Olson admitted was a possible problem)

Or maybe put in a Lot of Stop-leak additive.

Since it's not cold weather here yet, I can let it sit awhile longer to see if I get more water in drip pan.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

I went out and rechecked for external leaks and found a heater hose clamp that was not tight, that was hidden from view. So that's where most, if not all, of the water went this time.

So I'll have to start over with my leak Testing.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

I rechecked the head-bolt torque (to 60ft.lbs.) and for some reason, I found that the 3 nuts on each end of the head had Loosened significantly (probably 50 or so). All the others were still at 60. Seems strange to Me ???

(I've never seen this engine do that before)

'So Many Questions, and So Few Answers'

[Guest imported_Speedster]

It's been about 5 days since I started draining the oil pan and it's STILL dripping Muddy oil. A Lot of Muddy Oil! This Cold weather Doesn't help Any, either.

I may have to wait until Spring to put Oil in it, at this Rate! LOL (Or put a blowtorch under the pan to heat up the Oil.)

[Tom M]

Rick,

Why don't you just crawl under the car with some brushes and kerosene and cleaner up. Make sure you wear a face shield.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

Uuh, How Am I supposed to crawl inside the oil-pan?

That's where the oil is.

(I'm certainly not going to remove those 'Thousands' of Bolts in Pan to Remove it.) LOL

[Restorer32]

Oil and water mixed together actually makes a pretty good lubricant but not a very good coolant. Maybe if you just added a pump to move the oil/water mix back to the rad on a continuous basis your problem would be solved. Might need to add an electric fan too.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Restorer32</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Oil and water mixed together actually makes a pretty good lubricant but not a very good coolant. Maybe if you just added a pump to move the oil/water mix back to the rad on a continuous basis your problem would be solved. Might need to add an electric fan too. </div></div>

Wow, Great Idea. Is that what is called 'A Full Flow System' ? LOL

[Tom M]

O Rick,

Thought you had the pan dropped already. I know it is no fun to pull all those nuts. Been there and done that a few times already myself. I still have to crawl under mine since my engine still needs to be reassembled.