Car Hobby Past and Future == Your OPINION

[racingonerobb]

As with any hobby or group, there are those that presume themselves as the elite. Streetrodding has gotten that way, as has the so called traditional rodders, and the antique group. This attitude discourages many new commers from becoming active. I was at a streetrod show a couple years ago and there were a couple guys putting down a young fellow because he had an unfinished 52 ford(ran,but was primmered). A club I belonged to had a show that encompassed Rods, Customs, and Antiques. We had the most complaining from the antique guys trying to put down another antiquer for very petty reasons, like non correct screws and bolts, Just for a lousy trophy! I know most on this board seem like nice folks and would not do this, but the attitude that if it's not perfect, it's not good has kept some from showing unfinished cars, and ultimately leads to giving up and modifying their cars. I know I did on a 36 Ford sedan. It takes a tremendous amount of time and money to do it right, and then find you are not welcome until it's right. We need catagories, but we also need tolerance. I no longer attend judged shows.

Just my thoughts, sorry for the long post. Bill

PS: couldn't find spell check!

[Guest windjamer]

Dont feel bad Bill I know its here but I cant find it eather or maby that was i-ther

[Jon37]

Maybe what's needed is a ''Beaters'' class for folks with antiques that they regularly drive, but which are in no condition to show. A place where they can park with other "in progress" cars with no sense of guilt. Awards could be "peoples' choice" (no judging) and the whole attitude would be lighthearted and relaxed. It might keep people from taking themselves too seriously.

[MarkV]

It is a bunch of bull, how registration costs anything with the old cars, my '21 cost 65 bucks before I had it transferred over to horseless carriage plates and my '41 costs 55 bucks! Crazy!

[MarkV]

Look, anyone can dump 50 grand into a '57 chevy and make it perfect but, it takes real talent to keep the car original and kept up. My cars are not sunday drivers they, are driven a few times a week. By the way, anyone interested in buying a 1947 Dodge complete drivetrain, engine, etc.? My grandma wants it out of her garage!

[imported_buick5563]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

The majority of 70 year olds don't belong to the AACA either. All you have to do is expose people and the interest will develop in them like it did in us. </div></div>

That's why my navigator to the last two BCA Nationals I have attended was my (almost) 70 year old dad.

Mike

[MCHinson]

Jon37 and others thinking the same thing,

"Maybe what's needed is a ''Beaters'' class for folks with antiques that they regularly drive"

AACA already has exactly what you are talking about. It is called Driver Participation Class!

Here is the explanation of the class from the judging manual:

DRIVER PARTICIPATION CLASS (DPC)

The AACA Board of Directors in 2000

established DPC to promote the showing

and driving of antique vehicles. This class

is for vehicles with minor modifications 25

years or older that have not obtained a

national first prize. (A vehicle with national

awards is eligible for DPC only if the awards

- other than 2nd or 3rd Junior - are turned

into AACA Headquarters.) Certification

will be based on vehicle components that

must have the same appearance as when

the vehicle was manufactured. The body/

engine/chassis/driveline components must

be period correct per the original manufacturer.

Exceptions could be halogen

headlights, FM radio, seat belts, turn signals,

and/or air conditioning units from the

period. Originality of all components is more

important than their condition. This is a noncompetitive

category and will not be judged

but will be eligible for driver certification.

A driver tab will be issued to each vehicle

upon certification; a participation award will

be given at certification and at each subsequent

meet for attendance. After five participation

awards are received, the accompanying

participation cards should be completed

and mailed to AACA Headquarters.

A mounting board will be mailed from

AACA Headquarters after confirmation of

the five participation awards. A DPC certified

vehicle that is significantly modified will

lose its’ DPC certification. DPC certification

remains with the vehicle even if there is a

change of ownership. (see Attachment 6

- DPC Judging Form - page 49.)

[Twitch]

When you car becomes old enough or esoteric enough it will need a part that can no longer be obtained to continue running. A 1926 Marmon fuel pump can't be had from Pep Boys or a 1924 Buick volt regulator. I'm talking original parts here. So in an effort to continue to drive my friend put in an electric pump, though the old dead mechanical still resides, on the Marmon. And he implemented a non-stock volt regluation unit on the Buick in order to keep it running. He also uses some "non-replica to original" batteries to start some of his collection as well.

May be a travesty to some but friend Bob's cars are most all in original condition (they're not show cars)for the most part but not at the expense of driveability. YOU will face the choice someday of either keeping your car running reliably or not.

Folks, I said national organizations ARE the only ones that have presented auto events historically year after year. There are a few exceptions generally in the eastern US where events have gone off for any appreciable time. The majority of auto events are new in relative terms. The number of events has grown specifically in accordance with popular interest. There were NOT as many auto events in 1984 as now.

And anybody that spent $15,000 for a restored Model A will soon realize that there is almost nothing he can use from the car if he plans to make even a mild street rod. For $15,000 he can get a modern rolling chassis with IFS and disc brakes and a crate engine. There is literally nothing he can do short of sending his car to somebody like Coddington with a blank check to make a safe rod out of it that exhibits any performance. Even a dork like Boyd would put a modern chassis under it!

[MCHinson]

I understood your earlier post to mean something very different from your more recent one. I bet others did too. Let's not argue, but you might want to read the AACA rule book. AACA DPC is designed for a lot of what you are talking about. HPOF is another class that you should research. It is about Preservation of Features... not a total preservation. Also, prewar cars are specifically allowed to have an electric fuel pump added (even though my Model A doesn't need one). AACA is a very inclusive club. Check out the rulebook. You will probably find out that it is designed with some pretty good common sense approaches to the sort of thing that you now seem to be advocating.

[ex98thdrill]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Even a dork like Boyd would put a modern chassis under it!</div></div>

Oooh!! Rough crowd....

It seems like I'm not the only one who isn't overly impressed with Mr. Coddington's charming personality.

Feel the love!!

[oldcarfudd]

There's an even better way to show your well-used, well-but-not-fanatically-restored oldie. Park it with its proper judging class with a "Do Not Judge" sticker. My son has a 1909 EMF that he drives to, as well as on, HCCA tours up to 100 miles from his house. He doesn't own a trailer or a suitable tow vehicle; if he needs to go really far away, he borrows mine. His car is an old, very presentable restoration that wouldn't win anything from the white glove crowd. I have a 1906 2-cylinder Buick progressively restored (by others, alas, not by me) as a driver over the last several years while being driven about 4,000 miles. It, too, is a handsome car that isn't competitive in judging. If the weather isn't too grungy the Saturday of Hershey, we will drive these cars from his place in Lititz, about 35 miles away, to the judging field and park them where they belong - with other cars of their era. We will not subject them - or ourselves - to the indignities of judging.

[1937hd45]

I'll look for both of those cars! How many 100 year old cars are driven from home to AACA National Meets?

[Dynaflash8]

I've been in AACA sincd 1962 and in my opinion the worst years were pre-1974 when there were restrictions on accepted cars and trucks so severe as to drive off most "younger" members; people now 67-75 years old. Many never came back. I stayed and fought for change. Instituting the 25 year old limit in 1974 saved the club in my opinion. Some now question if that is still a relevant age. As a 69 year old person, that question is not for me to answer. I do not see collectibility in 1980s and 1990s vehicles, but people who are as old as I was in 1965 may, so it should be people of that age who make that decision.

[Twitch]

Hey ex98thdrill- could you imagine doing a project with that outfit? All they do is waste time complaining about the other guy's work or lack of. You can see some of the customer cars in the background that you saw when you tuned in out of boredom last year still sitting looking the same!

I did take notice to the 56 Chevy project though. For all the folks that believe all junkyard cars should or could be restored it was curious to see how difficult it was for professional body and metal fabricators to fit the doors and hood to the original body. They ended up finding more junk ones which ultimately needed less massaging to fit. So can you imagine Joe Average attempting to "restore" a 56 in his garage?

[MarkV]

I think that the whole collector car thing has been blown out of proportion, people take it too seriously,

(check out my blog on the cars behind the tape in general discusion). For example, Pebble Beach,etc. and the people who dump $20000 into a paint job,etc. and they are afraid that someone will take their car or put a finger print on it. I met a guy the other day when, I was getting my tires changed on my '48 who, was telling me about his '57 chevy (yawn, sorry 57 guys) He was telling me how it is locked in his garage at his shop, with a security guard patroling outside, then an alarm on the building, and the doors are locked and he has a battery shut off, kill switch, hidden gas shut off and lo jack, it's like seriously, calm down, dude! And to top it all off he was telling me how much he spent on the paint, etc. Give me a break! People forget that these '57 chevy's and others that are now so prized and at the fru fru auctions and shows like pebble beach and barrett jackson were once worked on in little old dumpy garages with old crusty car mechanics not 'Service Technicians'with white gloves! Many people take it way to seriously and use it as a status symbol, people should enjoy and drive their classic car all the time, and not have it locked up, and afraid someone might put a fingerprint on it.

[auto_man_tique]

it's interesting to get a hand on those vintage cars and modify them. i always wanted to get myself a vintage, retain its classic look but modify everything else.

car collection is one interesting hobby. a bit heavy on the budget side but if you can, why not.

[ex98thdrill]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Instituting the 25 year old limit in 1974 saved the club</div></div>

You're right Earl, it did save the club. If AACA had to depend on the brass cars and high wheelers, we'd have been all done a long time ago. The numbers entered in today's meets gives you the answer to prove that move as being credible.

When you take clubs like Willys Overland Knight Registry, Early For V-8, Packard Club, etc. I don't see those organizations standing the test of time like AACA will.

The 25 year rule was right for AACA and it is right for us now. The ones who are agaisnt the 25 year rule today, have the same mindset that could've killed AACA back in 1974. The only difference is that it is a different generation with a different outlook on the newer generation of cars.

Where I see a need for a change is to develop a form of incentive to bring the owners of the brass cars out (reduced entry fees for meets, reward people like Marshall VanWinkle who has an older vehicle with a couple of hundred Preservation Awards a reduced rate, etc.). In simpler terms, keep what we've got, but put a stronger emphasis to convince the owners of the really old stuff to being their cars out.

[1937hd45]

Pat, The club may have caved into the 25 year old crowd and given them control at the cost of the older cars & owners. I haven't seen too many 25 year old guys with any interest or desire to get into the Pre War vehicles. It's a split club like it or not.

[MarkV]

Well, I am 19 and I have a 1921 Chevy and 1941 Dodge (the 2 prewar out of the 5) , I guess I am just the rare exception and I do not have much money, but, I always seem to manage getting the car fixed and buying parts! Also, the pre-wars and slightly post wars are my favorite, but, my generation is primarily into the rice burners and the 60's and 70's cars because they are the 'cool' ones. I have a '66 Stang that I drove in high school, all restored and mechanically excellent, and my brakes on my '41 dodge feel better and it is a more comfortable car for me and I am 6'1 compared to the Mustang. And I think that both my '41 dodge and '48 Lincoln are much more unique and stylish (especially the '48 Continental in pic. on left) than one of those Mustangs. Pontoon fenders and big whitewalls are my thing, no muscle car or modifying crap! Also I think that people think that pre-war and pre 1957 cars are somehow not reliable and cannot contend with modern trafic w/o being modified in some way. My dad thought this until I got my grandfather's '41 fixed up and it runs smoother and quieter than any new car and gets 20 mpg in the town (straight 6 of course!)

[FomocoService]

1948Lincoln,

I'm part of the under 30yr old crowd as well and it's good to see more of our group on here who are into the older cars!

I use a '56 Ford as my daily driver and in town I get about 23-25 mpg.. with a 6cyl and no options.

I'm envious of your Lincoln! When I was about 4 or 5 my dad had a '41 Continental and I remember what a fine ride it had.

[MarkV]

31 Ford,

The old '48 was my grandpa's and he sold it in 1991 when I was 3 and one night after my grandpa died and I was clearing out his garage I found the paper with the vin and I was able to do a search at DMV and to my luck the guy called me and the car was still all orig. down to the paint from when my grandpa had it. And I dealed the guy down and bought it back last July!

[MikeLongfield]

Hello,

Just to reassure you that the under 30 crowd does still take a serious interest in Brass Cars, I thought I would introduce myself.

I am 22 and I am fascinated with Brass, 20's and 30's Cars. The hobby has been passed down three generations, grandfather-father-myself, and it is more than enjoyable when we attend shows and events together. In fact, most of the spare time my father and I have (away from mother's chores and business school) are either spent talking about, learning and working on brass cars. When I am away at business school and away from the cars, I am typically reading about and researching fabulous brass, 20's and 30's cars. While the many American Big Brass cars are breathtaking, I must admit that I have been intrigued by some of the many European makes, Panhard, Peugeot, Mercedes and Renault. I was blown away when I saw Otis Chandler's 1905 Panhard, 1907 Renault race car and of course the 1904 Mercedes. (we flew 6 hours just to see the collection before it was auctioned) I can't say that I am even slightly interested in 'rice rockets' or new cars. I am quite satisfied driving a stock Hyundai for the reason that it is cheap and reliable.

Quite a few of my friends have taken interest in the Brass cars as well (probably a result of myself rubbing off on them). I have invited friends over to see and work on the cars with myself and my father, and quite honestly...they really enjoy the cars. I believe that my generation could be just as interested in Brass Cars as the older generation… I think it just takes time and exposure.

Needless to say, in the future there will be quite a few of us that are excited to carry on the tradition of the old car hobby.

Best Regards,

[john2dameron]

I have loved cars since before I started to school. My dad tried to discourage my enthusiasm but he completely failed. The thing if, when I was growing up, every vehicle he owned was actually a collectible because he flatly refused to buy a new car. I don't own old vehicles but I have hoarded automobile literature and books since I was about eight years old. Today my collection is huge. I have about 1,000 diecasts cars and trucks. I used to stage a car show at the neighborhood school; the kids loved to see my models. We must encourage any child big enough to walk to get interested in cars. Lots of our country's history and success is tied to automobiles. We must take kids to car shows and share our knowledge with them and it is fun. A highlight of each summer is taking a cousin (He is almost 14) to an AACA car show and an ATHS truck show each year. He is a perfect companion at the shows. Since the barn supply of cars is getting scarce, trucks will become more important to the hobby. Large trucks and small trucks must be saved. I expect the hobby to survive long after I am gone and the more kids we can get involved, the healthier the hobby will bel

Jay 1124

[FomocoService]

MikeLongfield,

I've had an interest in brass cars but just haven't had the available funds yet... at least until my '31 "A" Roadster and '61 Vette are done.

I'd like to find a 1903-1908 Ford like a Model K, N, R or S.... even parts thereof!!!!

I remember seeing lots of brass cars at the shows when I was a kid, now you hardly see them. I assume most are sitting quietly in a barn or garage.

[oldcarfudd]

Mike Longfield,the HCCA's annual convention will be in Ocala February 17-22, 2008. It will include 5 days of touring for pre-1916 cars. If you want to see loads of brass cars being driven, and not "sitting quietly in a barn or garage", go up and take a look.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

I think we now know where the future of the hobby is - there are lots of young car guys (and gals)out there, and if "the hobby" HD Bob refers to is what I generally think of, the pre-war sub-set, there will be some of these who will no doubt become collectors of that era. The same reason I would not expect a Babe Ruth baseball card to depreciate anytime soon.

To this group I would say to grab the chance to learn from the older members of the hobby. People who were around to see many of these cars new are largely gone but we are still lucky enough to have the opportunity to learn from many collectors who started out in the 50s-60s. I spent part of an afternoon recently with a gent who has a beautiful 36 Ford Cabriolet here in CT, come to find out he worked in a restoration shop, and at the young age of 86 gets out to many shows - highway gears so he does not get passed to often! These guys will often gladly share their knowledge and memories, we should be taking advantage of it for the future.

[MCHinson]

1937hd45,

Your quote:

"I haven't seen too many 25 year old guys with any interest or desire to get into the Pre War vehicles."

I might as well chime in as well. While I am 46, I bought my first Model A Ford when I was 25 or 26 years old.

There is some hope for my generation and maybe even the next one as well.

While my 9 year old daughter has me looking for a 1951 Hudson Hornet (Think Doc Hudson!), I really want to own a Brass Car as well. I keep looking and keep hoping to find the right one at the right time when I have enough money to afford it.

Just keep encouraging the younger ones....

[1937hd45]

MC, Just to clarify what I posted earlier the 25 year olds are the CARS, not the owners. I think there needs to be some moratorium placed on what AACA allows in on the show field not the age of the owners.

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1937hd45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">MC, Just to clarify what I posted earlier the 25 year olds are the CARS, not the owners. I think there needs to be some moratorium placed on what AACA allows in on the show field not the age of the owners. </div></div>

My view is the exact oposite. There is no way cars that are now reaching the 25 year milestone could ever be restored in the same sense that the cars most of us appreciate can. For any of the survivors to exist in the future (near and distant) they'll need to be preserved NOW! Without the floating age of recognition there will be dramatically less incentive to preserve the cars left that, admittedly, do not represent the finest era in automotive history.

It may not seem like something that a lot of people should care about, helping to keep a preserved cadre of Subaru Brats and Merkurs around. But these cars provide context for the cars of the 1900-1970 era, and it is just not our place to dictate to people decades from now that there's need of interest in certain cars but not others. If there's a giant, discontinuous hole in the cars we leave behind the whole hobby becomes a questionable enterprise. In terms of leaving behind a hobby that has legs for future generations I think it's imperitive for those who appreciate '80s and '90s cars to have an incentive and a forum for preserving them, now and decades from now.

They certainly will not be as anal re. historical accuracy and impeccable condition as we've been through the years. The nature of the cars will not allow it. But they will have a place n the hearts of those that come after us. We can either be the arrogant b@st@rds who shelved those cars or the keepers of a flame for them, however dim <span style="font-style: italic">we</span> presume it to be.

Many of us refer to this hobby as preserving historic objects for the next generation and not simply owning them. That may be the difference between us and the hot rodders. I hope we continue that track.

[MCHinson]

Not to try to argue, but you posted:

"I haven't seen too many <span style="font-weight: bold">25 year old guys </span>with any interest or desire to get into the Pre War vehicles."

I was just trying to say that there are people like me who are interested in cars much older than we are.

I also agree that the floating 25 year rule needs to stay for some of the same reasons as Dave mentioned.

Every year of automobile has something to say about our history, whether it is a 1903 or a 1963 or even a 1983 automobile. They all form a continuous chain of automotive history that needs to be preserved.

[1937hd45]

Again, what I MENT was 25 year old CARS, not the age of the car owner. I was 10 when I got into the hobby and like Pre War stuff. If some 98 year guy shows up with his 1982 Duster he is a 25 year old car (owner) guy in my eye.

[Guest quadfins]

I don't think it is a matter of 25 year old guys, but of 25 year old cars.

And I would LOVE to own a prewar car, but I simply can't afford one.

So, yes, the club is split, in many ways, including relative wealth to lavish on restorations.

[MarkV]

Anyone can afford an old car and make it a daily reliable car. Look, people spend 15-25000 on a new car right? So, go find a decent or older restored 1940 or 1941 for 7 or 8 thousand then you could get everything rebuilt and new wiring, etc. and put in seatbelts and upgrade things to make it reliable and safe and you will clear money! In comparison with a new car and most of all you will get your money back out of it when you want to trade up for a 46 or 47! The cars of the late 30's and up are very reliable (once fixed) and have modern safety technology (juice brakes,etc., these can be updated as well) and economical on gas, my '41 dodge gets about 20 in town and 25 on highway with the original 6 cyl.

[Ron Green]

Quote; "I consider the hobby as persons working on their cars, helping others work on others' cars, and resurrecting antique vehicles or keeping them alive so that they can be driven to shows"

Some may be of the opinion that they don't like to work on them or just don't have the skills or are just to old, but do like to take their old cars to shows.

This is a big hobby and there is room for everyone including those who have multiple cars. These owners probably saved many from the crusher years ago. Allowing one old car per family sounds a little like socialism / communism. Maybe you were kidding around when you posted this and I took the bait? In any case have a good weekend.

[Barry Wolk]

I had the same reaction Ron. Should you also limit ownership of baseball cards and rare books?

Maybe we should all have the same daily drivers so that lower income people shouldn't feel bad about their situation.

Maybe we should eliminate choice altogether!

[R W Burgess]

Let me put my 2 cents in.

If you let those other potential 4 antique car owners buy these vehicles, who's to say that they will take good care of them. Maybe they will just leave them outdoors because they don't have storage for them. At what point does the weather make these old cars undrivable, then the town comes along and tells him to move them, since they're not operational. Then he can't find anyone to buy them so the town has the wrecker man stop buy and haul them off to the local crushing yard.

Yep, could happen.

I like Ron's Communism statement too. The last time someone tried to push their views onto others, a war broke out. As a matter of fact, I think they're still fighting that war in Richmond Virginia...goggle it.

Wayne

[Barry Wolk]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W Burgess</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The last time someone tried to push their views onto others, a war broke out.

Wayne </div></div>

A-hem.

[novaman]

And some of us are still supporting it.

[R W Burgess]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> What is your AACA related hobby? </div></div>

Drive, start another post on that subject. I'm curious to see what you have in mind.

Wayne

[Paul Dobbin]

As a multiple car owner, I welcome the guy who thinks I have to many cars. If he likes one more than I do, he can buy it. The measure of like is expresssed in dollars.

When I put a high price on it, it mean I like it a lot,

when you put a low offer on it, it means you don't like it as much as I do. If we can agree, we're both happy.

Every time I ask the price of a collector car I make a value judgement that determines ownership.

I like the system and I really like my cars. Now I know that sometime soon I'll see another car that might make

reorganize my likes and dislikes and result in a lower

price on one to make room for the next love of my life.

Pretty good system, Huh?