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VERY Rough Model A Ford Roadster SHOW CAR


1937hd45
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If I start out with a VERY rough Model A Ford Roadster that is licensed and in fair running condition, how much of the car can I replace during an AACA National First class restoration? New fenders and bodies are availabee and once painted who will know?

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HD, not sure about AACA but I believe the MARC/MAFCA high point guys can tell the steel repro roadsters apart from the authentic ones pretty easily. I believe there is one manufacturer of those bodies for the "A"s. There is a lot of detailed discussion (both philosophical & practical) on this in the Fordbarn archives. From what I understand the roadster bodies are good, but not perfect replicas, with some variation around the curvature at the sides and door tops. These are generally sold to rodders so some extra holes would need filling also. There are more variances discussed, I just cannot remember them all at this time. Similarly the repro wheels now available are easily identified and the fenders that have been on the market for some time have been notorious for fit problems.

Having said all that since I am pretty sure from our prior posts you are in CT also. I happen to know of one of these bodies (actually a complete project for a stock restoration) available locally, send me a PM if you are interested in the details. The car is rolling and most of the stuff is there, and you certianly would not have to deal with any rust.

Back to judging, I would think you would make out better in an AACA event, simply because they would be less likely to "ding" you on these variances. Question - why not look for a better authentic body if the one there is way too far gone? Just a thought - Keep us posted!

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There are alot of variations with repro stuff, namely the 'lines' in the floor pans and fender wells are not as crisp and sharp, The firewall on a Brookville body is not close to an original.

On that note- a '31 Standard Roadster with a Brookville Body got very high points at a MARC meet not to long ago. Somewhere in the ballpark of 425-450 points out of a possible 500!

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This was just a hypothetical question to see if anyone reads this forum. I think 9 out of 10 AACA judges (who ARE NOT schooled in MARC/MAFCA standards) would give equal credit to a repop and a restored body if the degree of finish was the same. The depot hacks in the 1920's truck classes are another topic on their own.

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: D Binger</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-style: italic">So just because they are a judge doesn't mean they know everything</span>

There are those on this forum that think they do, huh?</div></div>

You know what they say "opinions are like A***holes everybody has one"

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The one thing that has not been mentioned is that you can use replacement and reproduction parts, but make sure that you only use parts that are of the AUTHENTIC MATERIAL used to build the car when it was new.

In other words, don't restore a vehicle with fiberglass body parts for a car that was originally made out of steel.

Some judges do understand that not every reproduction part is an exact perfect fit of the original part made for vehicle. Also bear in mind that not every factory part was ever made with proper fit and finish. We have proven that by bringing a brand new car to a National Meet and showing the judges that even brand new cars are not perfect.

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Disclosure: These remarks are being made by a long time member of AACA and a life member of this club as well as others. The opinions contained herein are not the official stance from the Board of Directors, the Executive Director, his family, friends or those that might become his friends or enemies in the future!

Most of you have no idea how hard the club works on its judging system and how many countless hours it takes to publish the manual, conduct schools, meetings, etc. many of you have little idea of the expense most of our judges incur while volunteering for this somewhat thankless job. They get a few pins, chips and boards that hardly can ever be enough for us to show our appreciation to them. How in the world would be ever have judged meets without our 1300 volunteers?

Is every judge perfect? No. Our our cars always perfect? No. Can mistakes me made? Yes. Can mistakes be rectified? Yes. Do we try to learn from our mistakes? Yes. I have a perfect view of what goes on in this area and know that our club is trying very hard to continually make things better. I also have had the experience of showing extremely rare cars that no judge has ever seen before and understood their challenge. I have had cases of having to work hard to make sure my car did not get a deduction for something that was correct. Owners have a responsibility themselves.

There are tons of pre-war cars out there with complete new fabricated bodies that I would defy anyone on this forum to judge as new versus restored.

How many of you are even aware of our new team captain certification process? I guess what I am most trying to get at that this group of people do not needs bricks thrown at them and if you have a suggestion on how to make our system better let us know! Call, write, send pigeons or whatever to Hulon McCraw!

OK, I feel better now...take your shots! grin.gif

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I have been a member for many years. Until the last couple of years, I only showed cars and judged in local shows.

I have just in the past couple of years moved into showing cars on a national level and judging on a national level. I have been very pleased with the judging schools and CJE's provided. Every Judging School and CJE and Judges Breakfast that I have attended has always been accompanied with explicit statements to remember to NOT be nitpicky and to give the car and the owner the benefit of the doubt and not to take any points off unless absolutely sure of the deduction. My experience both showing and judging has been quite positive. In my experience, the system works about as good as any system involving human beings can work.

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Thanks Steve - I'd certainly like to know more about that Model A Convertible Sedan that was referred to. In my experience judging I have never seen a major deduction for incorrect body without having the involvement of the entire chain of command including the meet Chief Judge, and the VP of Class Judging. Model A's are still fairly common at meets and there is a lot of knowledge within the judging ranks on them, so it is hard for me to accept that an A-400 received a heavy deduction like that because someone didn't know what it was.

Terry

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Restorer32</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I too find it hard to believe that an A-400 was not recognized at an AACA National meet.</div></div>

If I won't get in trouble- I'll post all the documentation judging sheets, letters from the chief judge etc......

Back in 1989 at the Clearwater and Stuart FL meets...

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I would love to see the documentation, I have to admit that I was also thinking that it sounded really odd that judges at an AACA meet would not recognize that body style. Model A's are pretty common around this part of the country (I own two of them). Although the A-400 is an uncommon body style, I thought that it was pretty well known (and admired) throughout the hobby. I know that I would love to own one.

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So, what happens if all things are equal in terms of workmanship and proper materials, and two '31 Model A Deluxe Roadsters are side by side, one is restored with the original body and one has a reproduction body? Assume the judges identify this. I am more curious around the rules here, philosophically I would want to give the nod to the car with the authentic body. Repro parts are essential and we all use them to some degree, but does the more authentic car have an advantage here?

BTW - my post in the beginning does not assume lesser dedication or ability on the part of an AACA judge - just that I would expect the marque specific group to have more in depth knowledge. These have been a hot topic lately.

I would think 31Ford's experience is an exception..

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1989...almost 20 years ago! Things have changed! Just for kicks I would love you to send me the documentation. I have seen these Fords since I first got in the hobby. They are not common at AACA meets but not uncommon.

This forum is not to embarrass anyone but it can be a catalyst for change. I do not think posting documents would do anyone any good. Again, in the 18 years since your car was judged a LOT has changed in the judging program. The manual at one time was just a few pages and now it is almost 100!

If you send me the documentation I promise that myself or our VP of Class Judging will respond to this lesson in history. Thanks.

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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Steve Moskowitz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1989...almost 20 years ago! Things have changed! Just for kicks I would love you to send me the documentation. I have seen these Fords since I first got in the hobby. They are not common at AACA meets but not uncommon.

If you send me the documentation I promise that myself or our VP of Class Judging will respond to this lesson in history. Thanks.</div></div>

Steve,

will do you'll probably find it interesting.....

I haven't personally entered anything in AACA judging in a while, but several cars I've done for customers have been entered.

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I decided last year to go to Judging school at Hershey. I'm going again this year and will Judge at the show as well. I don't take this decision to become a Judge lightly. I wanted to fully understand the meaning of what an "AACA" restored car is. Going to Judging school opened my eyes for sure! I got a lot out of it. I own a very rare type of car that I know has never been shown at an AACA event. How can it be Judged if no one has ever seen one before? Documentation. I understand what items will be "picked apart" on this car when it will be shown one day. I have an arsenal of original photos, pictures and even original blue prints that I can verify what I will be showing. I learned a lot from the school, and will always be learning while judging as well. Documentaion is the answer and the responsibility of the owner. That will get the job done.

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Great looking car. Thanks for posting the photo, and you're right, about kowning one when you see one. I don't recall ever seeing one like it although not knowing anything about it I may have seen a body in the Hershey flea market and didn't relize what I was looking at. I'm 41 and have been to Hershey since 1966 with the exception of a couple years in the late 70s/early 80's. I'll have to watch the Model A's a little closer now.

I remember the Hershey show field inside the stadium and planes landing on the old airstrip across the street. I don't remember the flea market but one car in the show had a sleeve valve engine and the owner was running it with nickles balanced, dancing on edge on top of the engine. That's the earliest memory of Herhsey I have.

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Well i am against repo bodys. OK on fenders ,running boards splash shields but a total body no way for judging unless they start a new class for NEW MANUFACTURED CARS. In point -you take a repo roadster body and its in the SAME CLASS as a 400A Convertible Sedan ,180A Deluxe Phaeton,68-A,B,C ALL Cabriolets and last 35-B Standard Phaeton and is it FAIR to the owner of these other cars that there is not a repo body made and only a roadster??? .I attended a A.A.C.A.judging school class where this was discussed and the speaker said the repo roadster will do better then a ORGINAL RESTORED roadster because for the body in better shape with no signs of body work??? OK that does not make sence.WE are now to Manufacture cars and NOT restore them?????? NOT VERY FAIR TO OTHER OPEN CAR OWNER in the same class. FUNNY no one yet gave me a [FAIR] answer.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Interesting discussion.

I was at a class on antique auto restoration at the Reynolds-Alberta Museum this year and heard something interesting about judging. Someone got ahold of a Model T called the "Rip van Winkle Car". To make a long story short, it had original EVERYTHING except water, gas and oil; and maybe 30 or 40 miles on it. It was taken by the new ( second ) owner to a car show, and received a number of deductions. Not just that the totally original paint and other materials had some aging.

Apparently, as the car went down the assembly line, the guy on the left would install a part that was, in fact, different than what was being installed on the right and a number of things that should have matched didn't. Just little things like door handles and trim. A case of parts changing from time to time and the left hand literally not knowing what the right hand was doing. I wondered if anyone else has heard of something like that.

-----Jeff

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Jeff,

Actually it's very common with hi-production cars like Fords, Chevys etc....

I had a Model A in the shop that was pretty much unrestored except for engine work.

The interior was a Deluxe Interior and the car itself was a Standard.

They just did whatever they could to keep the line moving and not worry about being 'correct'.

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