Terry Wiegand
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Posts posted by Terry Wiegand
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My son-in-law is going to help with re-installing the pump this afternoon. My shop building lies in a North/South direction with overhead doors in each end. The last few days have seen high winds in the 40 - 50 mph range and we are just not going to open the building up under those conditions. This is something that is fairly normal out in Doo Dah in early Spring - a person just has to live with it. We want to roll the car out on the drive and get it on the jack so that things can be done much easier. It will not take long to do this. It's just getting things ready and in position.
Terry Wiegand
South Hutchinson, Kansas
AACA Life Member #947918
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I got the gasket cut this afternoon and I am just about ready to have my son-in-law help put everything back together. This is going to take 4 hands to get the thing back into the pan and I have a way figured out just how we are going to do things rather easily and quick. I am ready to hear this engine run after setting all Winter. The important thing here is to be sure and pack the pump with assembly grease before the bottom plate goes on. We do not want a dry start here. Wil keep everyone up to date.
Terry Wiegand
South Hutchinson, Kansas
AACA Life Member #947918
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Ed,
Thanks for explaining things better than I could. As you explained, this material will be there for as long as we have the car and then some.
Terry Wiegand
South Hutchinson, Kansas
AACA Life Member #947918
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Ed and I talked quite a bit about this pump screen. Since the engine was gone completely through and is as clean as a whistle inside, the screen really doesn't have anything to do except just be there. Under the circumstances the screen could have been left off. However, Mr. Marr designed the engine with it on there and it left the factory with it on there, so it just makes complete sense to keep it there. I am a huge fan of originality, so, it has to be there. I get it though - the openings are just a bit on the 'not very small' side😁. It'll keep the oil churned up really well going into the pump.
Terry Wiegand
South Hutchinson, Kansas
AACA Life Member #947918
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There is more good news to report. Ed sent the pump back to me and it got here this afternoon. He did a really nice job with the screen. He had mentioned to me earlier that he was going to put it in the oven at 300 degrees to thoroughly clean the casting up. It is really clean compared to the way it was when he got it. The next thing is getting the gasket cut and getting the oil pan opening cleaned and ready for the gasket sealer.
Terry Wiegand
South Hutchinson, Kansas
AACA Life Member #947918
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I think that I should clarify better about the early models drive spring. The early 1916 models with the cast Aluminum oil pan used the 33577 drive spring. The driving shaft and the pump gear shaft was the same for the early 1916, later 1916, 1917, and 1918 models. The 35090 oil pump drive spring started with the later 1916 models and was used on the 1917 and 1918 models because these engines had a stamped steel oil pan. That caused the difference in spring length. The two different numbered springs were the same except for the overall length. Anyone needing a drive spring through the 1918 model year can be helped.
Terry Wiegand
South Hutchinson, Kansas
AACA Life Member #947918
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I spoke with Ed Minnie late yesterday afternoon (Friday) and he told me that the oil pump will be on its way back home more than likely on Monday. We had quite a visit about what went into the repair. We are going to talk again once I have the pump in hand. I will post photos so that everyone can see just what was done. I cannot say all that much right now without physically having the pump body in my hands. What I can talk a little bit about is the oil pump drive spring application(s). I have been asked if this particular spring will fit other years of Buick 6-Cylinder engines. I consulted my Buick Illustrated Parts Catalogs for 1916 through 1923. Good question. I wasn't sure what I would find, but, it turned out interesting to say the least. As we all know, the 1916 and 1917 models were ALMOST identical mechanically. Here is what I found - OIL PUMP SPRING - 33577
OIL PUMP DRIVING SHAFT - 33575
OIL PUMP GEAR SHAFT - 33875
For the 1918 models OIL PUMP SPRING - 35090
OIL PUMP DRIVING SHAFT - 33575
OIL PUMP GEAR SHAFT - 33875
For the 1919 and 1920 models OIL PUMP SPRING - 38200
OIL PUMP DRIVING SHAFT- 33575
OIL PUMP GEAR SHAFT - 41491
For the 1921 models OIL PUMP SPRING - 38200
OIL PUMP DRIVING SHAFT - 33575
OIL PUMP GEAR SHAFT - 41491
For the 1922 models OIL PUMP SPRING - 38200
OIL PUMP DRIVING SHAFT - 33575
OIL PUMP GEAR SHAFT - 151837
For the 1923 models OIL PUMP SPRING - 38200
OIL PUMP DRIVING SHAFT - 33575
OIL PUMP GEAR SHAFT - 151837
It is a pretty safe thing to say that the 1916 thru 1918 6-Cylinder oil pump system used some of the same individual parts. I have found that through the years Buick changed the part number for the same identical part used on different designated year models. There is a good possibility that the spring used on the 1918 models was the same as was used on the 1916 and 1917 models. MAYBE NOT. Our 1916 is a really early in the production year car. It was built in October of 1915 and has a cast Aluminum oil pan. Later in the production of these models a stamped steel oil pan was used and this figured into the placement of the oil pump. The parts catalogs refer to the depth of the oil troughs from the crankcase, so, with that said, it stands to reason that the placement of the oil pump body was going to be moved. I am thinking that the cast Aluminum and stamped steel oil pans used on the 1916 models used the same oil pump components except for the spring because the parts catalog calls out a different number for the spring used on the stamped steel oil pan and that number is 35090. Same spring except for a different length.
Anyone who has a 1916, 1917, or 1918 6-Cylinder engine and should find themselves in need of one of these Oil Pump Drive Springs - please do not hesitate to get in contact with me. I can put you in touch with the folks who can help you out. This information can be confusing when you first read it, but, go back and reread and you will see where things fall into place. I hope that this will help anyone who might be in need.
Terry Wiegand
South Hutchinson, Kansas
AACA Life Member #947918
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Pete,
Jon Hardgrove over in Missouri is really going to be your best source for the Marvel rebuild kits. He is a really good guy to deal with and knows about Marvel Carburetors better than anyone else around. Keep trying to get in contact with him.
Terry Wiegand
South Hutchinson, Kansas
AACA Life Member #947918
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I am going to agree with Pete. There were parts and pieces for certain cars, but the thing about that is, if you have a certain make, model, and year, you will know what to look for. In my case, there were no 1916 Model D-45 Buick parts and/or pieces that I was able to spot. As I said earlier, I have been coming down to this meet for years and years. However, this year's meet had something that just blew me away. In the building that has the dirt floor for the livestock events and almost to the back end, The Willys-Overland-Knight folks had their gathering place and display set up. One of their members had a display set up that dealt with Stewart-Warner Vacuum Tanks. This gentleman had made a working model of a SW vacuum tank using two clear, acrylic cylinders. The tank lid (cover if you will) and the internal float valve mechanism were from an actual tank and when it was all put together, a person could see just how things worked internally. He had a vacuum pump mounted on the display board along side the model tank. The fluid was a red colored liquid that looked for all the world like Marvel Mystery Oil. When he turned the vacuum pump on the tank functioned just like it would on an actual running automobile engine. That was about the neatest thing that related to an automobile engine that I have ever seen. That display was worth the trip down for. Did anyone else see this display? If you did, we'd like to hear your thoughts also.
Terry Wiegand
South Hutchinson, Kansas
AACA Life Member #947918
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The weather was borderline COLD. I was there for the very first meet in 1990 and I think I have only missed 2 or 3 since then. We have been there when it was so cold that you could not get enough clothes on to stay warm and we have been there when you would come home with sunburned faces. In regard to buyers - a person did not see very many people carrying things. In my situation I am not needing anything for the Buick. It is a good thing about that because there just wasn't anything much there that would be worth taking home. I had about 3 hours worth of drive time heading towards home and I have made up my mind that this was the last time that I will be going down. I will miss seeing friends but it is what it is and as was said, this could be very close to the end of this meet.
Terry Wiegand
South Hutchinson, Kansas
AACA Life Member #947918
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On the D-Series engines and later models also, the oil pumps were driven from the back end of the camshaft. Why would anyone want to dinker around with the oil pump on one of these engines? Things worked rather well the way Mr. Marr designed them - why go messing with it now.
Terry Wiegand
South Hutchinson, Kansas
AACA Life Member #947918
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Joe, do not count on the 4-Cylinder pump being smaller than what was used on the sixes. I think that that was one area on the engines that was very similar if not the same. I spoke about knowing a bit about Buick water pumps. What I know I learned the hard way. My problem was not in the packing area - it was with the pump housing bushing. My machinist friend has told me that I have the luck of the Irish - that new pump shaft was not harmed one little bit.
Terry Wiegand
South Hutchinson, Kansas
AACA Life Member #947918
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This is very good advice and you will not find two better Buick mechanics than Hugh and Larry. My friend, Larry DiBarry has a Doctorate Degree in early Buick Water Pumpology. I also know a thing or two about what not to do with a Buick water pump. I will have to say that I have never heard of the Palmetto brand of pump packing. When I set my 1916 D-45 engine back together I used Garlock pump packing. I want to mention something that I read in these postings that has me a bit concerned. Dave said he cranked the packing nuts down and that there are no leaks as a result. I had a new water pump shaft made for my engine and the material used was stainless steel. The shaft was finish ground which ended up with a RMS 4 or better surface finish. It almost looks like it was plated. I used Garlock packing material and started out with a hand tight setting for the packing nuts. After the engine had run for a while I again applied hand tightening to the nuts. Please keep in mind that these engines use a non-pressurized cooling system and a small bit of weepage from the packing nuts is not going to hurt a thing. If a person gets the packing really tight there is the risk of heat build-up and scoring of the shaft. A bit of coolant seeping assures that the packing is getting a bit of lubrication and will help hold heat build-up down. Ask me how I know all of this - it's a long complicated story. I wish the best for the Buick engine.
Terry Wiegand
South Hutchinson, Kansas
AACA Life Member #947918
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What a menagerie of parts! I see at least three crankcases (cannot see enough to tell what years) and five cylinder blocks. Three of the blocks are 1918 and up. The parts alone are worth more than the car. I simply cannot even begin to imagine trying to put that car together using what is in the photos. It would take at least two experienced Buick persons a few days to go through everything and get things sorted out so that it could be determined just what is there. I get tired just looking at that mess.
Terry Wiegand
South Hutchinson, Kansas
AACA Life Member #947918
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EUREKA!! The new spring slips over the top stub like it is supposed to. The first thing that I did was to try the good end of the one that went haywire. The cross bend went just a little bit into the slot, but not far enough to fully engage. I then tried the new spring with the slightly enlarged inside diameter and the cross tang went clear to the bottom of the slot. I believe that I can safely say that the problem has been discovered with the original spring and that the new replacement is going to work just fine. Setting the pump back into place could be a tricky situation, but I have had the time to figure out just how it can be done rather easily. I talked with one of my early Buick friends the other day and we discussed this oil pump drive system at great length. We came to the thinking that the reason for the two different outside diameters of the drive and driven stubs was to allow for some mismatch with the two shafts centerline axis'. This is just about the only reason that really makes any sense. At any rate, I think things are headed in the right direction this time. The next big thing is stepping on the starter pedal and watching the oil running through the sight gauge. Will keep everyone posted about the progress.
Terry Wiegand
South Hutchinson, Kansas
AACA Life Member #947918
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arcticbuicks asked about the clear material used in the side curtain windows. It was not plastic and it was not isinglass. It was celluloid and I am afraid to make any comment(s) about just how durable this stuff was back in the day. Someone asked about how the wind wings would fare when driving in the rain. Back in the day if a person was caught in the rain in one of these open cars and was fortunate enough to have the top up but did not have the curtains in place, I would imagine if they were traveling along at say 30 miles per hour, it would be almost like going through the car wash in a 4-door sedan with all the windows rolled down. I don't think the wind wings would have been a whole lot of help in the rain. It is not hard at all to see how closed body automobiles caught on with great success. They were a much better deal all throughout the year.
Terry Wiegand
South Hutchinson, Kansas
AACA Life Member #947918
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If a person looks really close at the photo with the pump drive shaft slipped into the spring, they will notice that the drive end does not completely fill the inside diameter of the spring. The outside diameter of the driven end measures 11/16" or .687" . The drive end of the shaft that runs off the camshaft looks like it should be 3/4" or .750" by scaling the full size sectional drawing at that point. Sorry about this poor photo to illustrate what is being measured. We had the new springs inside diameter opened up to .765" to make sure the end of the shaft would fit into the spring. The thing that really has me trying to figure out is why Mr. Marr would have engineered this pump drive mechanism with two different outside diameters like this? If anyone can shed light on the why this was done like this - there are a bunch of us who would like to know the reason why. It is supposed to be in the lower 70's on Sunday and I am going under on the creeper to check the spring fitment to the shaft out. More information about that later.
Terry Wiegand
South Hutchinson, Kansas
AACA Life Member #947918
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There is some very good news to report at this time. The new oil pump drive springs came today. We're really happy that things are starting to move in the right direction. Ed sent me a note the other day and told me that when he gets back from Amelia that he will get right on the oil pump for us. That was great news to hear also. When the folks made the new springs we discussed opening the inside diameter up a bit and we agreed that widening the hook on each end would allow for not quite as sharp a bend at the very end. The photos really do not show this as well as I would have liked, but, it is what it is in that regard. When the pump gets back home I am going to cut a new gasket for it and hopefully I can get the crankcase filled with fresh oil. It shouldn't be long after that that the starter pedal can be stomped on. Updates as things happen.
Terry Wiegand
South Hutchinson, Kansas
AACA Life Member #947918
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I have been following this discussion about side curtains with much interest. We finished the restoration of our 1916 Buick last July. This car has been in my family for going on 60 years. When my Dad bought the car it had just two of the original curtains with it. I had Gary Martin of Goldfield Trim and Upholstery redo the upholstery and make the new top for the car. I have a friend out in New Jersey who also has a 1916 D-45. His car has the original top and the complete set of side curtains. He loaned the curtains to Gary so that a new set could be made for our car. We even had the original curtain 'tags' replicated as you see in the photos. When it comes to using these curtains on the car, we have an interesting story to relate. We had the car on the Red Flag Tour in Southeast Iowa last September. The early mornings in late September up there can get real chilly right quick. When we left Saturday morning for the last leg of the tour it was 41 degrees and I am here to tell you that 30-35 miles per hour had us freezing our backsides. We left the front two curtains off so that hand signals were easier and visibility was vastly improved. When it was all said and done, we sure wished that we had put them in. They made a huge difference in the comfort of everyone. Those wind wings are also a period accessory that are worth a lot when it comes to comfort in one of these open automobiles. The curtains are stored in the top when not in use.
Terry Wiegand
South Hutchinson, Kansas
AACA Life Member #947918
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THANK YOU to everyone for your responses and suggestions. I have done a bit more searching and have come up with another company that I want to talk to. The company is Annin Flag Company. I want to talk with them and Eder Flag. There is just something wrong with having the symbol of our country made by people who hate America and everything that our wonderful country stands for. I served our country and earned an Honorable Discharge from The United States Navy. I will definitely let everyone know how this is going to turn out. This Buick has to have WW1 era 48-Star flags on it - no exceptions.
Terry Wiegand
South Hutchinson, Kansas
AACA Life Member #947918
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Morgan,
Look at that eBay ad really close. Their flags are made in china. That is absolutely sacrilegious to say the least.
Terry Wiegand
South Hutchinson, Kansas
AACA Life Member #947918
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Would anyone out there know of a source for 48-Star Flags for our Buick? These flags that are on the car now are a period accessory from the WW1 era. It was the patriotic thing to do at that time. Everyone had a flag flying at their home and they were everywhere, even on automobiles. I have the original box that these came in and my Dad got them at the Lawrence Swap Meet in the early 1960's. They were old when he got them then and the material has not held up all that well at this point. I would really like to find a source to have some new ones made. My personal feelings are that it is disrespectful to fly and/or display Old Glory when she is in a state of disrepair. Any help with this request will really be appreciated. At this point I am going to take them off the car and retire them to their box.
Terry Wiegand
South Hutchinson, Kansas
AACA Life Member #947918
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The swap meet in Chickasha is coming up on March 17th. As always, Friday is the big day. The Pre-War Buick Enthusiasts have been been getting together at Steve Hammatt's space at high noon on Friday for several years now. I spoke with Larry Schramm earlier this afternoon and he told me that Steve would not be there. It would be a good idea to go ahead and get together in that area since everybody knows where this space is located. Looking forward to seeing friends again this year and talking a lot about old Buicks. See ya there.
Terry Wiegand
South Hutchinson, Kansas
AACA Life Member #947918
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Tom,
I have two of these Delco Piece Parts Catalogs for Buick that I would trade you straight across for your Delco Catalog for one of mine. I could bring it with me to Chickasha.
Terry Wiegand
South Hutchinson, Kansas
AACA Life Member #947918
Water Pump Woes
in Buick - Pre War
Posted
Larry,
The early Buicks enthusiasts that frequent these forums have gotten together and bestowed upon you A DOCTORATE DEGREE OF EARLY BUICK WATERPUMPOLOGY. I simply do not know of anyone on here who has had more dealings with Buick water pumps than you. Only you can tell us whether this is a good or bad thing. We're all told at a young age that experience is a good thing. Is there such a thing as too much experience😒? You are going to have to be the one to let us all know the answer to that question. Good luck my friend.
Terry Wiegand
South Hutchinson, Kansas
AACA Life Member #947918