Steve_Mack_CT

Not too strange, but I found clues to the prior owner's lifestyle in the '89 MB 560 SL - out of curiousity one day I opened up the factory first aid kit one day and a bunch of condoms came out - I highly doubt they were OEM... He also had golf tees under the seats, and in the trunk. So I guess he was a "Playboy Type"... A lot of times I have found other old car parts in the older (prewar) cars; or old tools.

Guy & Peter some very impressive RR - thanks for sharing the pics and the stories. A while back I suggested a RR/Bentley section in the forum, but the idea failed to proceed... IMHO the British section is a good venue for some of the really unique cars like a Railton, but the more common MG, TR , etc. are very well served by some other sites already. An RR forum here might draw more discussion etc. on Prewar RR and even the immediate post war models, of interest to me as I have thought about a Bentley R type or Mark more than once. Anyway, to Packard42s comments I would also search this general discussion area - I recall some conversation on the newer RR like you mentioned. I think the Silver Shadows are attractive, but understand the complex braking is likely the biggest nut with those cars, I would do my research on that front first.

Espage, Location and contact info helps a lot on this site. Good luck with sale, looks clean, hopefully original wheels accompany...

Old Guy, Bill Wyman from the Rolling Stones just turned 78 today, so maybe it is all relative?

Good luck in your efforts, John. Every time I passed by the VCCA tent a couple weeks ago I thought of you, this thread and the issue at hand. Not a Chevy owner now (did have a '39, '48, '56 - all original cars) but definately understand the desire to keep to the original mission of the club, hope it goes your way, and glad to see the update on things so far!

Mine is pretty straightforward as well, my name shortened along with the home state - and while I mostly agree with Marty's preference for actual names vs. "cute online names" I also think the Internet shennanigans in general can drive one to seek a little more privacy. I no longer display my full name here, for that reason, although I am happy to connect via PM and have done so many times here to help and be helped by a generally great crowd. I have a couple other "handles" that are more interesting. While not real active on H.A.M.B. (not as much time for all the forums out there), but go by "FastBrass" there in hopes the Speedster lives up to that name upon completion. Also, Old World Shepherds on a couple other sites - a reference to our (down to one, unfortunately) "Old World" German Shepherd Dogs - a passion Mrs. Mack and I both share. They tend to be straight backed, larger and long haired with rich color in their coats. Truly "Full Classics" in the world of dogs!

Guys one more thing unrelated to my quesitons - regarding Rootlieb's custom work - seems like a lot of non-T speedsters in the works these days, I bet he would do well to come up with a line of simple, semi universal flat fenders - maybe not for the ALF guys but more for the smaller, non Ford projects?

Thanks guys! Learning a bit aobut these - my restored chassis came with a very well done platform & stock Rootlieb hood set up; so my cross roads is whether to keep what I have, and work with that or buy the whole Rootlieb kit & sell off some of the other stuff. This feedback is really helpful. Guy, I understand and agree - 2" may not sound like much but when you really study these things you can see where some people hit the mark and others not so much in terms of proportion. You may not be able to make a Mercer or Bearcat out of a "T" but I do want the best period look I can acheive. I s/w Tom Rootlieb @ Hershey, who was very helpful, he even suggested moving fenders forward a bit if my heart was set on Speedster fenders, but again, I do not want a weird looking car. In favor of keeping the current set up - what has been done seems to be done well, and I do like these just fine with the stock fenders, I am really going to consider the earlier 1912 vs. 1914 fender set up, Guy, as I had not thought about that option before and appreciate the suggestion. Also already have a fire engine single seat that I think will help set it apart a bit, with some cool nickel grab bars, so I do not really need the buckets. I have decided that this thing needs to drop a bit as discussed elsewhere, but maybe not as much with this set up. I will say some of these with the non speedster fenders, when low enough, achieve a nice long look, and not stubby. In favor of complete Rootlieb kit is the proportion of the longer hood which looks great in any configuration, and if I am not mistaken, I would likely need to do this if I was ever to do any kind of OVH set up - was not thinking that initially but you never know. I figure hi comp head, better intake and exhaust will likely work fine for a fun car. Also, once you spring for it - everything is included, dropped axle, etc. etc. These tend to look sharp when they hug the ground, which involves more mods beyond the 2 - 3" drop the kit provides than we are planning for our first build. One last question for you Guy (I really appreciate picking your brain both now and in prior exchanges) - how much steering wheel drop does the wedge give, assume it fits under wooden block and I will need to make some adjustment to the opening on the firewall - I don't mind this as I believe you can cover that work with a larger plate from Lang or one of the others. THANKS

This Mercer really defines the speedster genre to me, along with the contemporary Stutz Bearcat. I took a few pics of this at the Dragone tent a couple weeks ago @ Hershey, and now see where it sold for $1.6 M - interesting history, as I am sure is the case with all Mercers of this vintage.. http://www.dragoneclassic.com/Auctions/fall-auction-2014/1912-mercer-type-35c-raceabout-ex-david-v-uihlein/

Jeff, I happenned to see this Peerless in Dragone's auction results from last weekend. It sold for Model A money - or a touch under $14K - thought I would pass along to the Peerless guys. Lesson learned here is not every auction car is over the top price wise. http://www.dragoneclassic.com/Auctions/fall-auction-2014/1929-peerless-61-four-door-sedan/

David you have added tremendously to this forum. If it took 200 cars to get to the sweet combination you now have, it seems to have been worth the effort.

Agree with A.J.'s comments about buying what you like. I would liken the Darrin/Auburn comparison to '61 - '63 Lincoln convts - why are certain Chevelles a few years newer worth twice these cars? And - will that bear out in years to come? sometimes values make no sense which just means they are not a reflection of your particular view on a given car. Other than "try not to do something really obvious as a bad move" the only other thing I would add is different cars are suited to different things. A good friend of mine recently pointed out that regular (by that I mean occasional) use of his #1 grade showcar (a true investment vehicle) would degrade it - he enjoys the occasional concours with that car, which is probably ideal for it. We drive our SL a lot, and were at a cars & cofee yesterday morning, guy is all over our car, unfortunately I was in a conversation I could not break away from but did notice him leaving - in a beautiful '30 - '31 RR Phantom roadster, interesting he was interested in the SL. Rusty, contrary to popular belief the R107s lend themselves well to handling the mechanical work yourself. A few parts are ridiculas in terms of price, and a couple jobs I could have done I elected to have done, but these are not the electrical puzzle many new cars are. That said, they remain cheap enough to buy the best unless you are a real hands on guy. Good luck with Mr. Mercer, if you guys do a deal, hope it works out for both of you!

Hmm, the impact of prices on the newer models is a tough call. The latest change can only help though, as the R107 models are the last ones (body design done in the late 60s) with a "vintage" look, a fair amount of brightwork, not too much plastic, etc. that the subsequent R129 and later SLs did not have. They get more removed from the newer cars with each major change, which is roughly twice the time between changes as MB does with it's regular models. At the end of the day there are just too darn many of them out there for a run up like the Pagodas, although clean examples are finding a strong market in Germany just like the Pagodas, there is an exporter in FL buying these cars regularly for resale in Germany and other countries as they are not nearly as plentiful overseas.

Had a '41 Ply as my first car in the mid 70s - love the "face" on these cars!

Interesting thread but it all goes back to buying what interests you. Markets change with the times, but basing your choices on that, to me, is not the best approach. I like the comment Restorer32 always makes in this area, about price vs. value. A couple years ago we sold a '68 Cutlass convertible, did nothing to that car but replace the top and make a nice 25% profit after a couple seasons, IMO overvalued due to strong interest in anything resembling a musclecar. The car was ok, but not great. We were pleasently surprised, will the trend continue on that car, tough to say but IMHO a lot of these 60s cars have to be near the top end. 15 years ago commenting that '55-'57 Tbird prices will be dropping would have been considered ridiculas, but that is where I think many of these cars are today. Still, if you want a '67 Chevelle you should buy that vs. say, a '74 Porsche 911 which is another "hot car" right now price wise - if you have no passion for the Porsche. The R107 discussion is interesting as we have one as well. I was surprised at the large number of these cars at Hershey as well - Matt counted more but I priced the ones I saw and they ranged from 43,800 to $20,000, or the market for all but the best R107s now. I will agree with the concensus these will appreciate very slowly, but if one is interested in these cars there are big differences underneath the skin that impacts desirability, with the early cast block 350/450 SL models being desirable, along with the 560 SL (essentially a totally different car underneath). Mid production 450 SLs had issues, and the low HP/single timing chaing 380 SLs had issues - all of which can be addressed but the $$ that takes gets you a more desirable example, so unless you find a super clean mid-production car, stick with one of the others. The 6 cyl variants have a following, as do the real AMG cars, but I have not seem market rewarding relative rarity/interest on the 6 cyl cars - and the painted trim AMG cars are a matter of taste. Like any other car, you need to do your homework. I will say that while we do not expect great appreciation with ours, we sorted it for less than what the reputation leads one to believe, and put about 3,500 miles per season on it. Gets a lot of compliments and wife and kid love it, Rusty, go for it, PM me if I can help in any way if you do get it. 3 years in I know a bit about them now - investment, no, one of the better usable collector cars we have owned, absolutely. I do think the earlier W113s hold the values in the recent run up, as the earlier 190 SLs are commanding astromonical dollars - admittedly to me, they are overvalued and not nearly as much car for the money as the W113 Pagoda cars. The remaining upside is in the early 230 SL cars, which, like a small block mid year corvette (I would prefer the Pagoda to the Vette, myself, but Mercer makes a good point on these cars upside) will be pulled up by the bigger engine cars faster than the 250 & 280 Sls will appreciate. I definately would like to add a Pagoda to the mix at some point. Matt, hang in there on the SLs you have in stock, I am aware of a 20K mile 560 SL that just sold for $50K here in CT, there is a market for the real low mile examples. I think you may want to think about venue and where you advertise these, musclecar and prewar oriented outlets are not going to get you to your buyers for those two cars.

Admittedly without the facts it is tough to make a call on fault other than, I believe in just about every state your responsible not to hit anything you are behind regardless of fog, light, dark, rain, etc. I guess one could split hairs when assigning % of blame in a court case, like, were lights on in an accident that took place after dark, etc. But I think two factors come into play here, one, the antique car was hit from behind (most often situation involving accidents with antique cars.) and two, those of us who have owned and driven prewar cars extensively know first hand how impatient and innattentive some drivers are - in fact, lots of drivers. That leads to the conclusions above, Keith. I may be a glutton for punishment going from a Packard (bigger, more power) or my Model A (capable of most speed limits, and I never felt comfortable on highway so I avoided it, IMHO a responsible decision for a stone stock "A") to a "T" but expect limited and thoughtful road use. I drove my "A" around locally - a lot. People tailgate, pass in no passing zones, and sometimes are so intent on looking at your car that they start "aiming at you" - not to mention texting/glued to cellphone mentality today. I am guessing Keith has not experienced that with his cars, as our 60s - 80s collector cars behave essentially the same as a modern vehicle in most traffic situations. But experiencing that regularly leads us prewar guys to reach the above conclusions - you know, if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, you know the rest....

Car corral prices are always interesting. I cannot remember seeing so many '72 - '89 Mercedes SLs (we have an '89) - in prior years. Perhaps 10 -12 over Thursday - Friday, ranging from $3,800 to $20,000, or right at market the couple nice ones reflecting their condition, the middle and worn out ones priced accordingly. I think there were more R107 SLs present than Gen one Mustangs in the car corral - or maybe just how my eye is trained. Two standouts were the white 560 SL a PA dealer had, and a green 450 SL in really nice original condition on Saturday. Tom Laferriere's black Cad 60 special was very reasonable at $19K, with a green '41 Lincoln Continental coupe at $21K striking me as very reasonable as well. As usual scads of Model A Fords - but these always seem to have the "Hershey 15% premium" for some reason - and a lot of them sell. If I ever have another A, I would take it to Hershey at sale time. Something for everyone though, it seemed.

I think for an event of this size they move people. provide parking and handle most issues with spaces, etc. amazingly well. I know what a logistical nightmare even a small event can be as I am sure many of you do as well. Sometimes the program is really helpful - I buy it right away and use if over the course of the next couple days to be sure I get to the "must see" people. We like gas & oil as well, which is so plentiful besides a couple people that specialize in better "smalls" the rest is hit or miss - all part of it. Got a ton of "T" stuff, admittedly could have mail ordered a lot of it, but also spoke with a lot of people - old and new friends and managed to learn a bit more about the car. Only dissapointment this year was rain Saturday AM, we blew out around 11:00, felt bad for those showing cars but all in all another good year.

that would be willing to take a couple measurements for me? I need width of the Rootlieb platform; trying to decide if I can run speedster fenders as I have a stock length hood, the Rootlieb set up is 2" longer, which makes a difference where the front fenders could have a fitment issue with the platform/firewall base area. I am ok if my platform is a bit more narrow or if the straight style fenders offer a bit more clearance. THANKS

ddavidd, whether or not you restore is not what defines you as a hobbyist (not saying Pomeroy or anyone else is stating that) - I learned a long time ago that buying them ready to go made the most sense for me, and I don't consider that "bad" just what makes sense for me - in fact, the '56 Chevy was my only full restoration on a car. I am split on the T speedster as I just have no time to devote to it and either need it to be very long term project or maybe improve it a bit and eventually move it along towards another finished car. Still not sure - but the thought of having something for retirement is appealing, and having a project is part of the appeal of the T - it may end up in my loft in peices if I do not make solid progress this winter, to make room for a 1930s driver. Only 15, not make that 14 years to go to the magic "R" word!! Heck a "hobbyist" can be someone who collects literature but cannot or does not want to be an owner for whatever reason - so many ways to enjoy this. Good luck with your race car - that is probably plenty for now!

hmm, interesting, as I always respect long term ownership. Sometimes I wonder if I should have held some of the cars we have had ('56 Chevy, '73 TR-6 and most recently my '39 Packard are on the "would not mind back" list) but all have been sold at one time or another for one reason or another that made sense at the time - usually shifting interests. Recently a '56 Chevy 210 two door sedan surfaced for sale locally on CL that I am pretty sure was my car, sold arond 1984 and we are in a position to buy - but alas, after thinking it over with the boss, we both decided not to pursue. Interests these days pretty much center around prewar American and postwar Euro sports cars so the Chevy really does not fit. I would prefer an MG T series or another late 30s car for the same money, but strangely conversation over the years has often been "should have kept it.." I have 3 high school friends who still have their first cars ('39 Chevy stock resto, '68 Mustang GT and '70 Chevelle SS) all good cars but I wonder what collecting experiences these guys missed over the past 30 years that they may have had with some variety. So it is a tough call, as unfortunately most of us are not in a postiion to keep all of them..

I would think worst case is a door could be fabricated, correct? Admittedly I have no idea what that might cost but to Restorer's point it would be just a small part of the overall job. These are attractive cars and not super common in the world of Classics. Would be nice to see someone save it.

IIRC I think he had a higher "bottom line price" and just adjusted to accepting $16,500 - sure seems reasonable for a usable, open prewar design (even if postwar car).

Seeker, your assessment is correct. The 380 SL is the least desirable of the "R107 chassis" SLs - they initially used a single row timing chain which does not last and faillure will cause major damage to the "interference" engine design. while this was rectified, I am not sure if it was done for the '83s, or the next model year, either way HP was anemic. Add a somewhat "off" color combinaiton to the mix and even a well maintained 380 SL will take a lot of work/luck to pull $14K. The other problem is even with a nice example, once you get into more money you can then look at 450/560 variants, both more desirable. They may or may not know this much about these (doubtful if they are relying on mechanic to value the car) , it may be worth the discussion but sometimes perception is what matters though, so you may just be too far apart.. If cannot sell that car at $16,500, this must be a really slow market -maybe Hershey?

uh6077 just a quick note - mean't to mention on some other thread where I noticed your car - NICE ride. Reminds me of my first old car, a '41 Plymouth two door sedan I wish I kept. Did not know the Desoto had a bigger mill but I was pretty impressed with the MOPAR mechanics....