olcarherb

And, btw, your post didn't sound harsh to me, just a slightly different point of view, which is what this forum is all about. First: True, theoretically, the meet COULD be held "anywhere" that has a large enough area to "house" it and region to run it, IF, in addition, there were the thousands of nearby (within 1 hr.) hotel/motel rooms that are within a reasonable drive of Hershey (all 250,00 attendees don't camp, RV or day trip it) and all the other requisite infrastructure (restaurants, campgrounds, gas stations/convenience stores - typically 1 in the same nowadays, just like during the brass car era, except they were called general stores then, where you could buy coal oil/gasoline over the counter - etc.) nearby. Second: I believe the Hershey Region is large BECAUSE of the meet, with the two basically going "hand in hand". It is certainly a prestigous organization with, I believe, a waiting list to join (at least it used to have one) it's large, dedicated membership who all actively work and volunteer their time. And there are certain benefits, as with all clubs, of membership. Third: I think most of the attendees (especially the veterans) know Hershey is about more than the world's largest old car swap meet. Some attendant activities such as the car show, race car run and car auction are very well attended. Others, such as the multitude of single make or model "club" meets (CDO, 1 cyl Cad. Reo etc. get togethers), SAH dinner, pedal car open house at Hornings, gas powered model race car meet, etc. are relatively well attended (typically the one of the largest such gatherings of their kinds for the year). Fourth: A spring meet is/was held (after the demise of the original H.I.T.S. show) to benefit the AACA Museum, I believe, though it has now refocused it's aim - making two different spring shows that were "less than totally successful" Fifth: There are a number of other AACA regions within an hour or twos drive of Hershey who could host a division meet, and occasionally do Sixth: As to the obstacles of attending a meet more frequently than once a year, I'd say time (most people devote at least 3/4/5 days or more to Hershey each year, doubling that would run into week(s) each year) is even more of an impediment than $$$. Old car people usually seem to find the money to do the important stuff, but finding the time is frequently another matter. Lastly, what makes Hershey the unfettered success it is are the people, ALL the people, buyers, vendors, show car owners and judges, Hershey region and national AACA workers and everyone else (even the port-a-potty attendants!). One last thing, by generally accepted estimates, nearly 1 million person days are spent at the Hershey meet by the attendees (at about 250,000 attendees staying on average 3-5 days). I believe that's probably more than the TOTAL number of person day attendance for three other well known yearly events - combined - ...the Super Bowl - approx. 85-125,000 person/day attendees, the World Series - approx. 200-400,000 person/day attendees, depending upon stadiums involved and # of games (4-7 at 45-65,000/stadium) and the Indy 500 - approx. 250-350,000 person/day attendees (used to be about double that 20-60 years ago)

Actually all "Hershey" actually is, is "heaven on earth", at least for this old car guy! Typically, the best 5 days of the year, (especially when God cooperates on the weather!), year to year, over the past 30 + years. The AACA headquarters (and the Hershey Region) are "in Hershey" because of the meet. In this case we know which came first, the (golden) egg of Hershey (the first Hershey meet was in 1954 - an outgrowth of the earlier fall meets at the Devon Pa. - Phila. Pa. suburb - horse show fairgrounds, which the meet had outgrown by 1953) came before (begat?) and basically caused the two chickens - the formation of the Hershey Region (whose members do a remarkable and generally unsung job running the meet) and the AACA headquarters to be relocated to Hershey (initially in a Hersheypark building, next to the zoo...circa 1954-55 - sorry for the inexactness, but that was 2-3 years before I was born!) from Tradesman's National Bank in Philadelphia. A tip of my cap to my Dad (another, and the original olcarherb), who was on the AACA board at the time and voted, along with the other AACA board members at the time, to relocate both the meet and the headquarters to Hershey, for this history lesson. Not a bad decision, huh? (Especially for a 20 something (at the time) "kid"?)

And btw, Grouts were built in Massachusetts and Whites in Cleveland, Ohio.

What a nice survivor! Hope the owner (you?) isn't planning on a FULL restoration.....a mechanical one, yes, absolutely, so it runs like (or better than) new. But I'd recommend a sympathetic restoration, leaving the body as original (keep the original paint if it is original - and upholstery, if useable) as possible (it's only original once!). OK, on to your question. I'm certainly no steam expert (I'll admit to not being smart enough to operate a steamer!), especially on the early ones. But I'd venture two guesses, one more likely in my opinion than the other, but both probably inaccurate. 1st guess is a Grout. 2nd is an early White. But there were literally dozens of pioneers (blacksmiths, railroad or other mechanical/practical engineers, "backyard" mechanics - like Henry Ford, etc.) who were trying to produce a practical/saleable (not always the same!) steam car in the period from 1890 through 1905 (undoubtedly the period of this vehicle, though I'd estimate 1899-1903 as most likely), who may have produced a single prototype, which this could be. Though one thing speaking for this as a factory (such as it may have been - perhaps not much more than a small "garage" in actuality) built example is the stylish dash, designed for saleabilty more than practicality/ease of building, as might be suggestive of a prototype. Hope this at least stimulates someone more knowledgeable than I to knowingly comment!

Comparing the 'Round the World Thomas, or any chain drive Thomas to a movie prop is like comparing Michael Jordan to Coolidge (the high school basketball player on the White Shadow TV show)....or the Hope Diamond to a zircon. Oh well to each his own!

I believe the car you refer to may be the reproduction Chadwick that was produced (80-90%) in Reno by John Mozart under Tom Batchelor's direction in the mid to late '80s. I remember seeing the raw engine and transaxle castings while visiting their shop while attending one of the Harrah's Auctions from 1984-86 and the wonderful piece of engineering that was the reproduction carbuerator produced by John Bentley of England while at a late '80s Hershey. The only two (I believe) original Chadwicks remaining were in the Bill Pollack collection during the '50s-'70s and then "migrated" west to the Mozart collection for a few years before landing in Seal Cove where you saw them. I believe it was while the Chadwicks were under the Mozart stewardship that the white Chadwick was begun. I believe it was completed under the successive ownership of Bill Evans of San Diego. The white Chadwick was also displayed in the last auto expo (sale) put on by Richie Clyne and Don Williams at the Hershey Motor Lodge, the year before the first Hershey car auction, about 5-6 years ago. It truly is an extraordinary accomplishment.

What do the following all have in common:............The World Series, the Super Bowl, the Indy 500, Christmas & Hershey?(1)They're all the pre-eminent "event"in their "field". (2) They're all the most highly attended "event" of the year in their "field". (3) They ALL occur once a year. (4) I (You?) wouldn't want to miss any of them (at least the 1st 3 on TV)......Part of what makes Hershey "Special" is that it does only occur once a year and attracts old car enthusiasts from literally ALL OVER THE WORLD, as well as from all over the USA, to celebrate the old car "experience"! I doubt people would travel hundreds or thousands of miles, as they do each year to attend Hershey, if it wasn't a "once a year happening". As much as I'd love to be able to attend more than 1 Hershey a year, I think it might remove the "Specialness" from Hershey. Sometimes too much of a good thing....All this from a 48 year old who has attended at least the last 42 Hershey meets (since 1964 - it's tough for me to remember before age 7).

I'd venture a guess that it's an accessory radiator mascot, sold as an aftermarket accessory starting (pretty much) after WW1. These were very popular in the '20s as concerns about overheating (more prevalent on teens & pre-teen cars than on '20s chariots) became less prevalent (earlier - teens and preteens - cars might typically have temperature gauges - thermometers - on top of their radiator caps - though there were exceptions such as the Thomas Flyer and the Locomobile - both after 1908 and each to celebrate major (the two biggest???) racing wins - the 1908 N.Y. to Paris 'Round the World Race - Thomas - and the 1908 Vanderbilt Cup Race - Loco). The Roaring '20s were all about individualism and freedom. I'd say the owner wanted to establish that he was the "King of the Road" (or jungle) as the case might be. BTW, if anyone has one of those Thomas or Locomobile radiator caps lying around, I could sure give it a Good Home.....

Actually, now that I reminisce for a minute, I believe the purple Hot Wheels car is a late '60s Cadillac Eldorado. Figured I'd better correct myself before someone else "showed me the light".

Wow, some kid sure had a lot of fun with those. And they're NOT ALL Matchbox cars either. The purple (late '60s Thunderbird? - can't tell for sure - either the picture or my eyes are a bit fuzzy) one is a (red line - tires that is) Hot Wheels car (from the late '60s - early '70s). Not sure about a couple more of them. It's been too many years for me to remember the manufacturer of the little (officially HO scale but actually about 1/60th scale) diecast cars by sight. I'd have to turn them over and look on the bottom.

Excellent job. Very creative. But where was the 9th cylindeer, Reatta with the Red Nose (and grill, bumper, hood, fenders etc.)? Perhaps it wasn't foggy that evening. Or, more likely, the Le Sabre had a GPS system and didn't need that 9th cylindeer to guide them! Doesn't technology seem to take the fun out of everything! P.S. our Buicks are a 1906 Model F Touring Car & a 1987 GNX...quite a mix don't cha think?

Be VERY Careful when dealing with certain vendors who advertise certain services in Hemmings. Not as to quality -I know nothing as to the quality of the services provided - we never got that far. But as to price! I don't mind a vendor who makes a fair profit - 25%, 35% 50%, even doubling one's money in certain circumstances is OK with me when one is providing newly made parts manufactured by someone else. But a 400-500% profit margin is downright GOUGING! I'll never do business again with a certain vendor who advertises (the same product/service) EVERY MONTH in Hemmings for the past twenty years or more! Ever wonder why someone who has been selling the same product and services HAS to advertise in Hemmings EVERY MONTH for 20+ years? Most suppliers of custom made or hand made parts/items in this hobby who do 1st class work don't need to advertise after they become established and develop a GOOD reputation (typically after a few years). In fact I know of one repairer/restorer of brass accessories who has the opposite problem. Believe it or not, he REFUSED to attend Hershey this year because he was TOO BUSY - he couldn't take on any more work or any new customers for (many) months and couldn't afford the time (1 week) away from the shop bench to attend Hershey! (I guess in his case success kinda sucks! huh guys?) But in my humble opinion his excellent reputation is diametrically opposed to my experience with ...well I guess I've said enough! Remember always Caveat Emptor! I didn't one time years ago and I still wince when I think of it.

NEIN!!! Das ist nicht richtig! Nicht Korreckt! Essen ist fur der Mann, die Dame, Frau, Fraulein und Madchen und auch die Kinder (kleine - (small) Mann und Fraulein). Essen ist nicht fur das Hund! Achtung! - Achtung! FRESSEN ist fur das Hund! Der Mann und die Frau essen. Das Hund und die Katze fressen. Danke Schon, Meine Herren und Damen! Alles Ist Gut!

Thanks Steve - I don't know when it was designed/built, but boy does that building ooze '60s style. I could see it as a setting in a Sean Connery starring James Bond movie. And I sure would love to try to fill it up with old cars, motorcycles and automobilia! You know, a 40 year old car (ie a '65 - or soon to be '66 GTO for example) is typically considered a pretty desireable thing (depending upon model of course, would one consider a '65 Rambler desireable? - sorry you AMC guys) and worth saving. But a 40 year old building is usually just viewed as out of date and starting to get a bit seedy. It's a shame but that's the way we generally view things in the good 'ol USA. Tho' I sure am glad our forefathers didn't view a 40 year old Independence Hall that way back in the late 18th century.

Hey guys, how 'bout a picture of this "hallowed ground"? (or building, should I say?) From what you're saying, it's going from "hallowed" to "hollowed" in short order. (NOT LOL). By the way, has anybody taken notice of GM's stock price since they canned Oldsmobile? It's falling almost as fast as that building undoubtedly will - more than a 50% decline in the past year alone! Just read that the share price (undoubtedly THE most important number at GM) is at it's lowest in almost a quarter century and that GM's largest shareholder, Kirk Krekorian who formerly owned MGM Studios until he sold it to the Japanese (Sony) in April (he owned almost 10% of GM, I believe) is selling about 12 million of his shares (about 20% of his holdings in the co. I think) at something like a $110 million dollar loss. Shows he's got real faith in "the house that killed Olds"! And, by the way, that $110 million dollar loss is only on the 20% of his shares that he sold. He's down about $600 million on his $1.7 BILLION dollar investment (ie his shares have lost about 1/3 of their value since he bought them). Although his reps publically stated that he needed the $110 million dollar loss to offset income "elsewhere" (don't you just wish you NEEDED a $110 million dollar tax loss to "help" balance the books?), it's thought he may have soured on the soon to be #2 automaker in the world (in my opinion that is - they have been #1 for almost 3/4 of a century I believe). Maybe it all goes back to that decision to ax their oldest division...kinda like when Coca Cola got rid of "Coke" in favor of "New Coke". At least the Atlanta soft drink mafia were smart enough to bring back "Classic Coke" toot sweet to save their company.....hey, anybody think GM is smart enough to bring back (at least the styling of) the '58 Olds Limited, first Riv. or even the first Limited? (OK, so my brass roots are showing thru - sue me!) rather than those lobotomized versions of early '50s Chevy pickups? Nah, I don't think so either. Any group of id**ts that would kill off a venerable 100+ year old name while keeping and promoting Saab & Saturn, well you know what they're gonna do.....and it ain't "the right thing"!!!

You're right, I believe, about the 'Round the World Thomas being restored to look like it did, as close as they could approximate it in the '60s when Harrahs restored it, to the condition that it appeared in when it entered Paris in the late spring/early summer of 1908 after about 20,000 miles (but only about 4 months) of the worst punishment I'd venture to guess that any race winning motorcar has ever sustained. That is different from what a paint job would typically look like after most of a century of "normal wear and tear" including a lot of sitting around "waiting to be rediscovered". I don't believe the Thomas has much if any of the "paint crinkling" that might typify a 75 to 100 year old paint job, or one MEANT TO LOOK LIKE a 75 to 100 year old paint job. But it's been a couple of years since I closely examined George Schuester's ride and my exact memory of it's paint escapes me - after all I am almost half as old as the Thomas and I've never been restored!

There are people doing EXACTLY what you're looking for but they typically try to keep the process a secret. It has been done to at least a couple of brass era cars that I've seen...at least one of which has been "shown" at Hershey. And it has recently become QUITE THE RAGE with old motorcycles where original paint is HIGHLY PRIZED. In fact, a week before Hershey I looked over a pre-teens (a '12 I think) Excelsior (was not for sale by the way) for about 10 minutes that FOOLED me completely. It was a 2005 paint job that looked like it had hung on the barn wall for 90 years! In fact it looked BETTER than my original paint '11 Wagner that did hang on the barn wall for over three quarters of a century! Anyway, what you're looking for is possible but, alas, generally quite expensive, especially for such a big vehicle as an ALF. In fact it might set you back as much as an AACA Junior/Senior 1st Place quality paint job would cost. I personally don't know how to do it (yet!) but I'd be happy to discuss it with you in more detail (I do know 1 or 2 people who do it) if you want to e-mail me your phone # to olcarherbNOSPAM@juno.com - eliminating the NOSPAM of course. I've had enuff of this typing!

That is truly a shame. That's why the large majority of our antiques are under not only lock & key but also a security system. And ALL of them are insured with the best (and largest) antique car insurer (who also happens to advertise to the lower left!). If your friend had insured his cars with them or another similar specialty insurer (although I am NOT an expert nor am I in the insurance industry - just a 30+ year veteran antique car owner/lover) I'm quite sure his cars would have been covered up to the value he set on them (plus some additional spare parts coverage and with NO deductible). In that case it probably wouldn't have mattered what building the vehicles were stored in, as long as the insurer was notified of their location in advance (and it wasn't downtown Baghdad!...lol) (but again I reiterate - I'm NO expert) And I'd check with his homeowners/business insurance policy/agent(depending upon who "owns" the tools) to see if the tools were covered. But of course even a sufficient amount of insurance proceeds will never assuage the feelings of anger, victimization, disgust and sadness that must result from such an awful tradgedy. And quite honestly, I'm usually more afraid of "natural" or "accidental" disasters such as fire, flood etc. than I am of "intentional" ones such as the one described here. Just ask the victims of Katrina, the California wildfires of the past few years, etc. But it certainly is a tragedy nonetheless, especially the senseless, wanton destruction. My sympathies and best wishes to your friend.

Hi guys! What I was going for with the '32 Ford analogy was that 25 y.o. rods are typically considered technologically outdated (sometimes 2 or 3 y.o. rods are too, I believe) by many of the rodders who spend the big bucks & want the LATEST & GREATEST. But us antiquers aren't always as impressed with such "flash". That is, I think antiques hold their value better than many (nonperiod) rods. But, hey, maybe I'm wrong (too!)........Hi Bob!..(1)Was the '32 original or a rod? I wasn't sure because I don't know(2) what is the AMBR award? (couldn't puzzle out the acronym) (3) There are unique price spikes for certain unique items of all kinds. Bill Gates is spending over 100 million on his home but the average (& majority of) U.S. homes sell for well less than a 1/2 million $. (4) Twenty years ago a Curved Dash Olds (typical 1901-1904 Brighton car) was worth 15-20 grand, maybe 25 at most, and an average house in our area sold for $65000.00 (I know - we sold one - unfortunately) (ie House = 3-3&1/2-4 CDOs). Now, you can buy a CDO for $30-40K (one was just advertised on this site for less than 30!) but that same house will sell for at least 275 and perhaps even three or three and a quarter! (8-10 CDOs)...So, what's cheap now and what's not? (and there are a lot more houses in just my small hometown than there are existing CDOs in the whole world - so it's certainly not the supply - OK, so maybe it's demand!...lol) 'course a 4 cyl. 35 h.p. 1904 Mercedes is a "slightly" different story! (5) I thought we were in the original/antique vs. hot rod discussion mode, not the hot rod vs. street rod mooooooo.......oops I just fell through!.....lol And finally, People will always be able to operate a stick shift just like people can still operate a harpsicord, butter churn, ringer style washing machine, victrola, etc. Now getting someone to fix them....that's another story!!!

Best lookin' Stude I've seen in a long time....and that includes my "first (unrequitted) love".......the bulletnose!

It makes me very happy to hear that true ORIGINAL ANTIQUE cars are becoming much less popular. That way they'll become cheaper...and that means that I'll be able to buy more of them! Sounds Great to me! I don't like big crowds anyway! By the way...I wonder which would be worth more today.....after 25 years that is....a dead stock original '32 Ford V-8 Roadster or a hot rodded '32 Highboy with a 327....both of which were "done" (ie restored or rodded) in 1980 at a total cost of oh say 20 grand each and well maintained thereafter? And remember the standards of hot rodding have changed QUITE a bit more over the past quarter century than have the standards of antique cars! It seems many hot rodders (but not all I know!) are interested in the NEWEST and LATEST (in technology) and that's where the big bucks seem to reside (other than the original, untouched, unmolested, unchanged from the '40s, '50s or '60s rods) whereas us antiquers are usually impressed by the OLDEST and the GREATEST! And P.S. I'm not looking for any attention...except from my loved ones

What happens when you put the top down? Is the rollbar retractable like some of the newer Mercedes roadsters?

Hi guys! Thanks for posting the interesting picture and relating the neat Hoover story gwells. Any guy named Herb can't be all bad can we? Guess he was just in the wrong place (the Presidency) at the wrong time (just before the "great" (guess it wasn't really great for those who experienced it huh?) depression). Sorry West, but I don't believe it's a F.I.A.T. Right continent, wrong country. Of course it's not a Jag either - about 1/2 a generation (of people) too old to be a cat, but I believe that's the right Church (country) but wrong pew (marque). Judy, you are correct, and '56 Packard, I believe you are not, in that the lamp covers (during blackouts one restricts a vehicle light's output rather than covering the lamp completely) are to protect the brass from tarnishing. Some Horseless Carriage people (those who don't lacquer or otherwise "protect" their brass) still use them! And hey! I'm a "young guy" too: 48 and Chris Paulsen is a hell of a lot younger than me. What are you Chris, just short of 30? OK, now for my "educated" guess. I believe the mystery car to be a circa 1908 (anywhere from '06 to '10 or '11 is a possibility I guess) (english) Daimler 5 passenger touring car with a "king of Belgium" body. Daimler was the marque used to transport the (English) Royal Family for many years, though I'm not sure if that was the case over 90 years ago when this photo undoubtedly was taken. It may have been a dual chain drive model but you can't really tell from the photo. Also note the "tool boxes" under the running board - very European. These were not very common on American cars of the era, though my '06 Lozier (Plattsburgh N.Y. mfred and also double chain drive) has slightly different ones. (The designer of my Lozier "borrowed" many ideas from the Mercedes Simplex and the leading French cars of the day.) BTW, I'm not sure the uniform is gov't issue (armed forces or ?). Chauffeurs of the period wore very similar coats and caps and it wouldn't be totally unknown for a chauffeur to be positioned in the rear of the car for a photograph. But my eyes aren't good enuff to tell for sure - Hey maybe I'm not so young after all!

Alan - E-mail me your phone # so I can give you a call. Perhaps I can give you some info that might be helpful with your Pierce project olcarherbNOSPAM@juno.com leaving out the NOSPAM part of course.....Herb

The Brass in Bucks County Penna. (between Allentown & Phila. Pa.) Swap Meet on a Sunday in mid - late May (for the east coast enthusiast), the Chickasha (sp?) Swap Meet south of Oklahoma City on a Thurs.-Sat. in mid-March (for the Midwest enthusiast) and the Bakersfield, Calif. (north of LA) Swap Meet on a Fri.- Sat. in mid-late April (for the west coast enthusiast) are probably your best bets. I'd be happy to provide you with more details or you can probably find what you need on the Horseless Carriage Club's website - hcca.org - under events. Better yet, join the HCCA - membership is available on the website - Hey, what do you have for sale? Maybe I'm interested! Feel free to e-mail me your phone # and I'll call you if I can provide you any further info or if you have any brass era "goodies" for sale. "Brass is Best" olcarherb(NOSPAM)@juno.com eliminating the (NOSPAM) part, of course.