Donald Rinaldi

I want to take this last opportunity to once again thank everyone who responded to this string of question and answers on this Post. It was my belief from the onset that no one here could bring this to a head and most of the opinions stated are assumptions which we all had the opportunity to study and respond. Sort of like an email debate with no real solution or winner. It certainly has been an education, however, not one I will cherish. Let it be known that I did hear the conversations made by the head judge from the back of my car and I observed during the judging process that you (Dale) did conduct yourself professionally and were thorough with your assignments. Dale looks like a person that has strong character so why no response? Well you did, and have certainly earned my respect and I am sure from other readers on this forum. It was unfortunate that you had to be an innocent party to what happened but I want to compliment you, Dale, for your courage and straightforthness in your posting backing up my accusations regarding those unfortunate comments by someone who obviously missed a few judges meetings. Regardless, I could tell by the way you handled yourself that day that you were a person of honesty, integrity and not thrilled with the behavior of the other judges. Unfortunately for me, what is done is done and cannot be overturned nor do I want or am I campaigning for any special treatment relative to this incident. It is my opinion that the problem lies at the top and not the bottom or as we say in business, there is no such thing as a bad employee only bad managers. Bad managers cost you business and this episode has cost AACA a member. I'm sure the officers of AACA have read these postings and it is their responsibility to fix the wrong so this does not happen in future meets for the sake of other owners and judges. As members and car owners we have the right to be treated fairly and with respect toward each other and especially our property. Let me restate again for the record, there is semi gloss paint in the engine compartment, engine block, manifold, alternator etc. and is evidenced by the milky finish in the black paint. There should not have been a deduction according to the rule book as that should be considered over restoration. Page 2 number 2 of the AACA judging manual states "There shall be no penalty or premium for over - restoration. Over - Restoration and non - authentic restoration are not the same. Paint with a finer finish and higher gloss than original paint would be considered over - restoration. Chrome plating or varnishing a part which was originally painted would be considered non - authentic restoration, and the vehicle would receive the appropriate point deduction on the judging form". I did point out to the judge I spoke with that it was not suppose to be flat black but semi gloss but he did insist it should be flat. None the less, the conversation shouldn't have taken place, nor should it have been a topic of discussion as it didn't matter because the rule book spelled it out on page #2 which the lead judge should have known. And what kind of person am I? I would like to hear that. AACA manual page #60 POSITION DESCRIPTION OF THE TEAM CAPTAIN "THE TEAM CAPTAIN HOLDS THE MOST RESPONSIBLE POSITION ON THE JUDGING FIELD. It is the team captain who coordinates the activities of the judging team on the field and directs the team in the actual judging of each assigned vehicle. The team captain must provide positive leadership, thus enabling the work of the team to be conducted in a fair and impartial manner". Section 2 page 2 A 3. QUALIFICATIONS OF AN AACA NATIONAL JUDGE "TO QUALIFY AS AN AACA NATIONAL JUDGE, THE FOLLOWING REQUIREMENTS MUST BE MET" 3. " Must have the ability to be fair, honest, understanding and reasonable when judging a vehicle". Has nothing to do with what kind of person I am although I would like to hear that from these other individuals. From here on in I will continue to support my specialty clubs, concourse shows and charity events. I am trying hard not to take this episode personal, but then how do you not, when someone trained by the same system that is supposed to support our hobby makes callus and unfounded statements ; not so much intended at the car but also at my character by his statement "what kind of person would do this to a car." I did not know I was that "kind" of person, only a fun guy who was present to enjoy a day with his car and his wife and give the spectators a nice car to look at and enjoy. Isn't that what this hobby is all about? It was further unfortunate that my spouse had to hear all this as she was also horrified and embarrassed by the fact that in such a professional organization, something like this could happen for all in the vicinity of my car to hear. Thank You again Dale for your posting and all of you that have tried to help me (Judges and Car Owners alike). Let's see if the mangers take responsibility for these individuals. Don

I was at dover this year also. pretty good show. The best AACA show I went to this year was in VA Beach. These guys were great! You couldn't move without one of them asking you if you were having a good time and could they do anything to help. Now that's Southern Hospitality. Probably the best show I ever went to except concours events where they treat you as royalty. Don

I believe their were five in the class -- just a side note 3 had five radial tires and one had four radial tires and one bias ply tire. Love to show you the car. The end of the month would have been great as I am driving to So. Carolina with my TBird for the Hilton Head Concours. Unfortunarely I only own a single 21' trailer. Maybe we can put something together after the holidays. Don

Thanks Susan and thanks for the offer of the judging manual. I got one at judging school last year Don

In my last post I did specify it was an MCA judging criteria but I shold have highlighted that. I was trying to get across the point that I am in the dark on the # number of points deducted in the engine compartment which I averaged out at two per highlight. My reason for doing this is you can tell if it is the right part, color etc. You can't tell if the parts are damaged, dented etc. so you'll have to take my word on that. For example the 641/2 should have a generator and not an alternator. The generator should be painted semi gloss black. The sixty five should have an alternator. Not sure of the color but would have to check my book if that is important. My other intention was to get an understanding on over restoration, non authentic or incorrect to determine the point deductions. At any rate non of us will be able to figure this out. My opinion on the overall engine compartment is the deductions for gloss (maybe a bad assumption but I'll bet you two steaks in Harrisburg that was what the deductions were for). I really don't want to go to the next show and have to debate whether my engine compartment is over restoration, non authentic or incorrect, just not my style and truly I shouldn't have to debate that. Got a little wound up yesterday especially seeing comments about nicks, chips and dirt: just rubbed me the wrong way. Had a bad hair day! Read too many posts! Have a long way to go with MCA to get my grill medallion -- it will take me years to accumulate the necessary points -- pretty tough process. BTW, If you read my previous posts I thought I was pretty complimentary about all you judges out there. You do something that I can't do and would not be good at. Myabe we should compensate you all at say $10 per car. Wouldn't be a big tab for the owner at registration time, won't make you rich but cover some of your costs. Or provide you with a blanket to roll around the ground on. If you all do figure this over retoration, non authentic or just plain incorrect restoration thing out please let me know. If you need info on MCA I'll be glad to get you the judging criteria sent to you. Thanks Again, Sorry if I insulted you judges out there -- you do do a great job. Don

Good advice Solid Axle. I certainly would not expect you to overturn a judges decision but I think it is important that members know what took place here. I for one do not want a screaming match on the show field. As an FYI I offered my judging sheets from MCA and was told that it didn't supply enough information. Well semi gloss paint is not flat black paint even though it specified it in several places. Nice Vet, Love the color! Saw one like that for sale a fews years back, beautiful car but unfortunately the numbers didn't match. Don

As far as I am concerned and I think I have said this in my responses to the posts on this forum the judging process in both organizations try to achieve the same and that is the authenticity of the automobile as it left the factory. No need to knock MCA, NCRS, CTCI or any other specialty club as the fact of the matter and I have held off saying this but the problem is with the lead judge that judged this car and it is AACA that has the black eye because the representative sent out to view this car had his own opinions of the rules of AACA judging, did not provide enough information as to why the deductions were taken, lack of coutesy and respect and a complete lack of understanding of paint finishes (ie didn't know the difference between flat black and semi gloss as well as telling me my engine compartment should be flat black). THIS IS NOT A SPECIALTY CLUB PROBLEM BUT AN AACA problem!!! The engine compartment where there were 23 highligted areas is the direct result of this interpretation and probably some 40 points in deductions due to semi gloss vs flat and maybe a little too much gloss. Here is the judging criteria for an MCA engine compartment concours trailered which may be similar in nature to AACA but perhaps a little more detailed than AACA. Both are trying to accomplish the same: Engine components to be painted: 641/2 - 65 "All, black block, heads, intake, oil pan, timing cover, water pump, oil dipstick, thermostat housing, bypass hose and clamps. Harmonic balancer may be block color or natural". 641/2 and 65 - 289 "Gold valve covers and air cleaner assembly (except HIPO). Black snorkel and heat riser. Semi Gloss Black Components: "Fan, fan pulley, crankshaft pulley, generator bracket and adjustment arm" Semi - Gloss Black or Natural Components: Engine mount brackets, P/S bracket, Eaton P/S pump body". Engine Compartment to be natural: 641/2 - 65 Non A/C Eaton Pump reservoir(silver), bell housing, accelerator rod and linkage, distributor hold - down bracket, fan spacer or fan clutch (if equipped), alternator and generator spacers, P/S spacer and automatic transmission dipstick handle. Natural paint mat be used as long as part retains original appearance". Qua;ity of workmanship, condition and cleanliness in every section!!!! up to a 4 point deduction Carburetor and Intake Manifol: "Proper type for year and engine. 641/2 - 66 HOPO has manual choke. All others have automatic choke. V8 with automatic transmission has dash - pot. 641/2 - 65 automatic V8's with kick down levers must have black return spring mounted to a bracket from center top driver's side valve cover". Again I must stree up to a 4 point deduction for quality of workmanship, condition and cleanliness. Distributor and Cap: "Proper design and natural finish. Fomoco or Autolite. Correct for year and model. 641/2 distributor must ahve oiler. Correct style vacuum advance with threaded fitting". Spark Plugs and Wires: "Wires 641/2 - black with black Fomoco boots. 65 -66 Fomoco or Autolite with black or orange boots. Prooerly routed with correct attaching brackets. Thermactor cars must use correct routing brackets. HIPO wires are marked SX (steel core non resistor)" Spark Plugs "Autolite BF-82 260 & 289" Exhaust manifolds: "Natural cast iron appearance (paint acceptable). May show engine color overspray. 641/2- 65 tab lcks. 66 - tab (early) or ramp lock-lock bolt and washers. Locking tabs must be used to lock bolt in place. Washer behind lock tab." Fuel lines and attching parts: Rigid lines: "Original configuration and finish, in priginal location and proper attaching parts. All V-8 routed either front or rear of distributor. 641/2 HIPO must be mounted in front". Line Clamp: 641/2 - V8 fuel line clamp is two piece Fairlane style with machine scre holding top portion in place. 65 - 66 - correct style for year. Base of clamp is painted block color. Oil Filter: "Engine block color, red or gold rotunda" Fender Bolts: Original color and style. Correct phosphate and oil finish. Painted or clear coated bolts are not allowed. Star washers, disc washers, or combination acceptable. Inner Fender Bolts: "Semi - gloss black or correct phosphate and oil finish. Installed in either direction. Must be consistent". Horns: "Semi - gloss black. 641/2 - large style mounted on lower diagonal frame brace. Must have horn relay below voltage regulator. 65 - 66 - original design and original location with correct mounting bracket". Firewall and Inner Fender Panels: "Painted semi - gloss black. One piece export brace, black, on most export and T5. Must have firewall reinforcement bracket welded in place on cowl and 4 evenly spaced mounting bolts". Hood Hinges and Springs: "641/2 - early 65 - semi gloss black hinges and springs. 65 - 66 phosphate and oil finish" Decals: Service specification decal. Autolite SpatkPlug decal. Air cleaner service instruction decal. V8 may have Front air cleaner decal except 641/2 289 - 4V and early 260. Oil cap decal optional. Battery test decal filled out. Wiring: proper gauge and color code. Mounted in priginal location with proer attching clips. Black plastic wrapping as original. 65-early 66 GT - fog light wiring integral to headlight harness. 66 External. Undercarriage: Non Undercoated Cars: Undercarriage primer - red oxide, dark gray or black with siome body color fading to tunnel. Convertible plate black or neutral. tires V8 Except High Performance 289 6.50 X 14 nylon BSW or WSW 6.95 X 14 4PR rayon BSW 6.95 X 14 4pr rayon WSW 6.95 X 14 nylon BSW or WSW 6.95 X 14 nylon Dual red band This car was clean through and through on the day of the show including wiping down tires to get that god awful grass and dirt off. The quarters were cleaned inside and out, as well as the fender well and rockers. This is not a dirty car!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So please do not even think that. So, I was asked to judge my own car based on the limited judging sheet -- here is my review of the highlighted items. Engine Compartment : It is correct, clean, painted the correct colors with the correct options, witing tags plugs etc. I have to say 0 point deduction: Semi gloss paint was used but it is shiny. Under AACA rules is this considered over restoration or non authentic. If over restoration than 0 point deduction. The block, manifolds, air cleaner, valve covers, power steering, volt regulator, alternator et al are correct part and color. The doors and quarters on this car are straight and there are no chips and loss of luster in the paint. The paint shows with some orange peel which is required by MCA. I believe AACA considers no orange peel as over restoration. This week end three friends of mine who show cars in AACA, Chevy clubs and ISCA were asked to look at these quarters and doors and they could not find anything wrong with them. The splash pans I have no idea. they are correct, not damaged and painted and fit correctly. The car has no fan shrowd and should not have one. Why were points taken off for that?? The side marking lots or parking lights as the judging sheet is referred to are correct, not scratched, fit and have correct Fomoco logos. The inner fenders have semi gloss with correct serial numbers of the car and match to the data plate. In summary how would you like to go a show and listen to someone point out to two other judges in a very loud tone so other car owners and spectators could hear the following " Why would anyone do this to a car?" And then follow up with the owner and tell him he has a major problem here!! What an example to an apprentice judge if they were present judging my car. You all know that it costs alot to attend these shows and it just isn't a matter of saying "bring it back again" or "it's is not a life or death situation". Well in my mind it is! Too much time, money and effort goes into restoring and maintaining these cars to have something like this happen. So the million dollar question AACA is this over restoration, incorrect restoration or non authetic? If it is incorrect restoration or non authentic then this car does not belong in AACA and someone do me the courtesy and tell me so and save me alot of money. I have no intention of ever changing that engine compartment! OR This story and events sound like a peer judge show -- Did we judge a car so our friends could win? Now that couldn't possibly happen could it??? AND There was no 400 point car -- Trust me, including mine. We'll never find out the real story here but I will say this. I exposed my car at Hershey, allowed pictures to be posted on the web site and have tried to offer evryone how the car car had been judged in the past. So where is the judge? Where are my scores and comments? Should I trailer the the car to headquarters for a private viewing? The system has definitely failed here and big time! Thanks again to all of you that have tried to help. I appreciate it. Don

Hi Ted! Used to live in Niskayuna in the '80s and kept my boat at Norwal on Lake George. Live in Mansfield, MA now. Don

My knowledge of the process was it was suppose to be red oxide primer with overspray in alot of places. I call it the sloppy undercarriage.

Adirondack Nationals is correct. All had a good time. Don

Very sorry to hear about your loss. My sincere condolences to you and the family. Don

Thank You for posting the pictures. Off to a Halloween car show with the grandaughter today in the mustang. She likes to go ride in this car. Hopefully, the car only gets treats and no tricks! Again, Thanks Don

Thanks Sparky, I don't know where the side parking lights came from either. Same with the fan shrowd which there was none. The 641/2 had painted hinges where as the 65 did not. Thanks for observing. Sent some pics to Novaman who is helping to get them posted for me. Look forward to hearing from you. Don

Good Morning All! Randy was pretty speedy getting my judging sheet with the highlighted areas, but without the point deductions it really doesn't help much and without explanation it is even tougher. Maybe the experienced people can interpret for me. Exterior Body door Rear Quarter Panel Light: Side Parking Splash Apron Chassis Steering Assembly Undercarriage Engine Air Cleaner Block Coil Crankcase Fan Shroud Fire Wall Generator/Alternator Heads Inake Power Steering Splash Pans Water Pump Wiring Other - Gloss Paint It looks like the major loss was in the engine compartment realated to gloss, although I puzzled on the exterior, udercarriage and steering assembly. As I may hav mentioned I only lost 1 point on my undercarriage with MCA as it pertained to nuts used for the rear shocks. If the gloss paint was the issue is it over restoration, non authentic, or is there anything else. Thanks to all for your time <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Don PS I'll send more pictures if it helps but how do I attach multiple pictures to the forum?

Good idea! Thanks Don

Just wanted to let all of you know that I received an email from Randy Rutherford last night regarding my judging sheet and he will be forwarding a highlighted copy to me today by mail. Should hve it by the week end. Thanks to all of you that have helped out in this forum. Don PS Anyone know how to use spellcheck on the quick reply?

I agree there should be a deduction for an over gloss but also understand there was a single stage 35% semi gloss applied. The paint has a milky appearance and is not a full gloss paint. Let's all not confuse semi gloss with flat black as the judge indicated. The battery is MCA approved and the generator cover should be painted black and not chrome. At any rate your point on incorrect restoration is well noted. What should be the deduction for that in your opinion? This may be the problem, does this fall under the non authentic rule? If so, then the deduction would be valid. Thanks, Don

I wish this was as simple as radial tires but to answer the question the car was shown with correct bias ply tires on all five wheels.

Hello Susan, I have always been impressed with the judges at AACA. I always felt comfortable speaking with them and they have always treated myself and my car with respect. I especially like AACA because there is a broad venue of cars and I get bored looking at all mustangs for three days. I also own a TBird and the same holds true when I attend national TBird shows. After this experience, I am more than likely going pass on AACA in the future. I was planning on taking my TBird to Kalamazoo next year for it's senior grand national but I have just lost alot of respect for the organization and it's integrity. But who knows, things feelings change.

The MCA scoring system is very similar to AACA except they spend about an hour to an hour and a half on your car depending on your class. In my case the class was concours trailered with complete undercarriage. They really get into the nuts and bolts and details so I woud say overall it is a more difficult judging scenario. Some things for example are I had the incorrect nuts on my starter solenoid which should have been thinner as opposed to the thick bolts, the fuel line bracket that mounts to the engine block was natural and should have been painted black as it was mounted when the block was painted at the factory, I was missing a clip where the ground cable clips to the fender from the engine to the battery (I have since made one as they can't be found anywhere), incorrect spark plugs (I had motorcraft they should have been autolite - since chnaged) and of course the over gloss on the firewall and inner fenders. Total point deduction for above was 8. I have since corrected all but the gloss as the car presents itself better as a show car and when I start driving the car again will mainatin its luster. Othe deductions were incorrect nuts on my rear shocks (I had two nuts one being a lock nut) and that shuld have been one elongated nut which is a part that I made since the show. I recieved a 2 point deduction for my door sill plates which were 65 sill plates which are still on the car. 64 plates can't be found and I am trying to figure out how I can modify the 65 plates -- eventually I'll figure it out. Another deduction on the interior for 1 point was on the 641/2 two screws that hold the carpet to the floorboards (one on each side). Hope this gives you an idea of the judging, so the judging criteria is similar but the MCA format because it is specific to mustangs is more detailed which is what you would expect as AACA is more generalized. The judge kept getting confused that my car was a 641/2 because he told me my trunk mat was incorrect that it should be plaid and not speckled. The speckeld mat should be in a 641/2. He insisted on flat black in the engine compartment and it should be semi gloss according to MCA standards (I showed him this on my MCA judging sheet). I used a one stage 35% SEMI GLOSS which is evident by the milky finish. If I were to score the car wth a completely detailed udercarriage I would have scored the car at or around the 394 - 392 as I have fixed many of things I lost points for at the mustang show, so unless you are a gold card MCA judge you probably wouldn't have picked up on them. By the way one of the spectators overhead the judges negative comments an he happened to be a gold card judge for MCA (how about that for coincidence?), he introduced himself to me and showed me his card. His comment was don't listen to him and don't change a thing. He was that obnoxios and should be kept away from the public. Definitely an ego problem!! I will share with all of you my results from AACA when I do get them. I have a problem with any group that hides results from their participants. This shoudn't be a secret as I exposed my car at the show I should be able to see the results including point deductions. I didn't hide a thing. If allowed I would have put mirrors under the car which is typically how I usually show the car.

OOPS! Attached the wrong file!

Thanks to all for your help! Didn't get home until after 11:30 last night. We had two trailers travelling together and one trailer blew out two tires and mine (which must have hit the same thing in the road puctured one). Oh well -- we are all alive and no damage to property other than some tires and a long day. It was dissapointing to hear a judge make the comment "what kind of person would do that to a car?" and other participants hearing the same and commenting that he was upset with what I had done with engine compartment. Definitely tacky! Anyway, I am anxious to see the judging sheets and see how they compare to the MCA standard. Her are some pics -- Hope you like her as much as I do! Thanks Steve, for getting things going for me.