carbking
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Posts posted by carbking
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There are a number of different replacement carburetors available, including the BB1 SERIES of Carter carbs. There are some 60 different versions of the BB1, and only a few will fit, and only 2 will work well without modification. Zenith and Stromberg also made replacement carburetors. It is always important to get the proper replacement.
Jon.
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John -since I am a dealer, will give others who might need it for a car a chance, but if it doesn't sell in your week, let me know; and I will take it.
Jon.
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Restorer32 - have not mentioned it earlier, as it seemed this thread was under control. But one of the wholesale suppliers with whom we have an account lists this acorn nut, however minimum order is 100 pieces. Will get a price if there is enough interest. I don't want any, they don't fit any carburetor of which I am aware, and I already have a small fortune tied up in hardware of various sizes. These are listed as stainless.
Jon.
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Go Poly - while not officially published as such by Carter, the 401 carbs were approximately 625 CFM (1.5 in Hg wet). This figure is obtained by comparing throttle bore AND venturi size to Carter carburetors which do have published CFM.
Often, a vehicle with an auto transmission will have an off-idle stumble due to too RICH an idle setting. (Read NTX5467's explanation of idle control).
Carter did not build "aftermarket" AFB's calibrated for Buick. There was absolutely no need. Carter had factory-calibrated single and dual quad carburetors for the Buick. Why confuse the customer when you already have a product that works, and there is no additional tooling costs?
Jon.
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Joe - with all due respect:
Carter produced 505 different AFB carburetors, in sizes from 400 CFM to 950 CFM. Buick had, as I recall, both a 300 CID and a 340 CID engine that came as original with Carter AFB carbs. These engines would have a fuel requirement similiar to the 330 Olds engine, and the original carburetors flowed approximately 500 CFM.
ALL of the aftermarket Carters were based on Chevrolet! Yes, the 9501 and 9626 had Chrysler arms and were set up on a Chrysler engine, but these were basic reworks of the 9500 and 9625 for Chevrolet. The same is true for the 9627 that came with a Ford arm.
If you think about it, there was no need for Carter to produce high performance aftermarket carbs for other than Chevrolet. Why? Easy. They already had high performance units for the other makes (except Olds, and the Olds fuel curve is extremely similiar to Buick).
Now, please re-read my comment which you quoted. I did not say the e-clone AFB would not work at all, rather to make it work WELL would require certain changes. The original Carter AFB is an extremely versatile unit, and almost any will run on almost anything. The catch is - how well. If you have a pickup with running boards, you can hire a 15-year old to stand on the running board and pour gas into the engine out of a leaky boot! It will run, the catch is - how well.
Sometime examine the different airvalves used by Carter. You will find that those used for Chevrolet have a much more aggressive angle of attack than those used for Buick or Pontiac. The Chevrolet engine likes to have the secondary whipped open, the others prefer the airvalve have more delay (or you get a secondary hesitation).
Same is true for the idle circuit. Generally, in installing a Chevy carb on anything else one needs to drill out the idle tubes for best results.
Finally, take a look at the Chevrolet profile rods and rods for a Buick or Pontiac (the Olds is similiar). The Carter Master book lists most of these, comparisons are not difficult. You will find the Chevrolet profile has a much larger percentage delta between the high vacuum step and the low vacuum step than the others. The Buick, Pontiac, and Olds engines want more fuel earlier, thus the difference in steps is much less.
The problem with aftermarket rods is there simply isn't sufficient selection to dial the carb in at BOTH the high vacuum and low vacuum steps. You can get either perfect, but seldom both.
The vacuum piston springs available are quite sufficient for a basically stock engine; there should be no issue here.
If you are happy with the new carbs fine, I am not trying to get you to change. Carburetion is not an exact science, and various folks will be happy with various levels of performance.
And I will agree with you completely, that for most single carb applications the Q-Jet is a better choice than the AFB. I have been preaching Q-Jets (and Carter TQ's for 25 years). Now that Cliff Ruggles has published the book on Q-Jets and their modifications, many more have joined our bandwagon.
One final comment: I often hear people talk about feeling the surge when the secondary on a four-barrel kicks in. THIS IS THE MARK OF A MIS-CALIBRATED CARBURETOR! A four barrel carburetor which is properly calibrated should pull seamlessly from idle to wide open throttle. Yes there will be more power as the RPM's increase, but there should not be a "surge", just continuous power.
Jon.
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Should you opt to disregard the preceding post; consider the original shops recommendations:
Your 1964 330 Olds had a factory "redline" of 4800 RPM.
Using the CFM equation:
CFM (at 100 percent volumetric efficiency) = RPM x CID / 3456
Plugging in numbers:
CFM = 330 x 4800 / 3456
Thus CFM (at 100 percent volumetric efficiency) = 458
Assuming you are driving this on the street, you will be going through mufflers; thus the volumetric efficiency will not exceed 90 percent (80~85 percent is probably closer, but we will go for a high number). 90 percent of 458 is 412, so your engine IN STOCK FORM ON THE STREET really needs a little over 400 CFM!
Yes, you could probably gain a few horses at the top end by going to a 600 (at the expense of several horses at the low end). In other words, if you preload the tranny at 4800 on the strip, you might reduce your ET by a tenth or so; but in normal driving (on the street) you will probably be 2 tenths SLOWER from zero to 60 due to reduced air velocity at low RPM.
If you must go new, I would suggest a 500 CFM (unless you modify the engine). Oh, and the original Rochester??? Was about 500 CFM. Maybe those Olds engineers had something going for them.
Jon.
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Bird - there are no modern carbs available that are as good for your application as the original (other than possibly looks, and "beauty is in the eyes of the beholder".
You could change to a Holley or an edelbrock, but either would require linkage modifications, possibly an adapter for the manifold, a different fuel line, and a different air cleaner.
Out of the box, neither would work as well as your worn-out Rochester.
A "Holley guru" could eventually make the Holley work (assuming you bought one of a size which could be modified for your engine).
To make the e-clone work well, would require different primary and secondary jets (available), metering rods with an Olds profile (probably not available), remachining of the idle circuit in the primary venturi, and a different secondary airvalve (probably not available).
Probably, if you pay someone to tune either of these to perfection, there would still be no noticable (probably measurable on a dyno) increase in performance over your Rochester if you rebuild it; UNLESS you also do major modifications to the engine.
If you do major modifications to the engine, an original Buick or Pontiac Carter AFB would probably be a better choice than one of the newer units.
Glenn - the shop meant the Olds would turn into a gas hog with the addition of the non-standard carburetor!
Jon.
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Bob - I collect ALL years of Oakland and Pontiac. I believe the earliest I have is 1927; and the newest from this year. I have a library of these items. Always trying to fill in blanks, and acquire duplicates for trade material. If you wish to sell or trade, please contact me.
Jon.
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Wanted: Pontiac filmstrips, super 8 filmloops, 16mm, 35mm movies. Will purchase, or have Chevrolet filmstrips to swap.
Jon.
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Be VERY careful with the cork blocks. Most natural cork will float, but many of the cork blocks are "composite". They grind the cork into small bits, and "glue" it together with a binder. This stuff is heavier than natural cork AND WILL NOT FLOAT!
I am unaware of a source for the poly-nitraphyll closed cellular foam in blocks this size.
An alternative would be balsa wood. Most hobby or craft shops have balsa in blocks of this size. Whittle to the desired size, affix whatever arm may be necessary, and seal the exterior of the float. We would suggest using POR-15 as the sealant.
Jon.
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The Zenith pictured is a French Zenith (different company from Zenith U.S.A.) thus the Zenith Fuel Systems website will not help in this instance.
Jon.
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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Nervier</div><div class="ubbcode-body">HI Jon,
Do you think it would be possible/advisable to put in a fixed metering jet from a repair kit to replace this adjustabe metering jet?
Rik </div></div>
It would be necessary to know which BB1 you have. Carburetors meter fuel AND air. One would have to compare the air jets (and venturi size, throttle size, etc.) to the original to determine what size fixed jet to use.
Jon.
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Dan - I received your email, but rather than answering by email, I am posting here, as others may also have ideas.
I have assumed (perhaps incorrectly) since you began this thread that your engine was stalling from excessive fuel. From the comments in your email, it may be that just the opposite is true, and your vacuum tank is incapable of providing sufficient fuel for the engine. Your comments about running the engine for long periods of time with a different source pretty well suggest that the fuel supply system is the culprit. We have seen MANY vacuum tank valve failures causing fuel to go directly into the engine through the vacuum supply link to the vacuum tank, and perhaps this history helped me to assume that you had too much fuel.
In any event, there is a company in South Weymouth MA (Boston area) called the Antique Auto Parts Cellar. They rebuild vacuum tanks, and also (my opinion) are the leading supplier of all types of fuel pumps (vacuum, camshaft driven, and electric) for the antique auto hobby; and the guy that answers the telephone is also the owner and EXTREMELY knowledgable of fuel pumps in general. I would suggest a call to this company is in order at this time. Their website is: http://www.then-now.com/
Remember, if you should opt to go with some type of pressure pump, that the fuel inlet valve on your carburetor will require changing. On the BB-1, this is a very simple change that may be made without removing the carburetor.
Jon.
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Dan - is there a spring on the vacuum valve that is supposed to keep it closed? If so, perhaps the spring has fatigued, and not able to close the valve against vacuum.
Looking ahead here. If you get totally frustrated with the vacuum tank and decide to replace it with an electric pump, remember to change the fuel valve in the carburetor. A fuel valve sufficiently large to run well on gravity feed will flood profusely if a pressure pump is installed. No need to trade "a headache for an upset stomach"!
Jon.
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Dan - the original carb may have been a Stromberg. If so, there will be a letter (or a short series of letters) followed by a number cast on one side of the carburetor. Example O-3 or OU-3. The name "Stromberg" would have also been on the bowl cover; but since bowl covers were similiar with other makes, I have seen many misidentified carbs where the name on the bowl cover was used.
Jon.
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Diesel makes a really good base for stump killer. Much better than water, as it tends to stay on the stump better.
I personally would not run this stuff in anything except possibly an older (1930's or 1940's) tractor that was designed to run on "distillate". Got any friends who restore older tractors?
If you use it in your Buick, the car will hate you, and manifest that hate in the failure of expensive parts.
Jon.
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Rik - Carter produced approximately 60 different type BB-1 carburetors. The 1932 Chrysler was originally equiped with a type BB-1 model 6A1. Without knowing exactly which BB-1 you currently have, it would be impossible to answer questions on differences.
Without looking at the specifications for all of the models, I can tell you that MOST of the BB-1's used as "original equipment" would have a "fixed" metering jet; while ALL of the "universal replacement" BB-1's had "adjustable" metering jets. If you think about, this is perfectly logical. Since the exact fuel requirements are known for an "original" application; the carbureter could be fitted with the less expensive fixed jet of known fuel flow (and the other internal calibrations are also known). The "universal" models were designed to run (at less efficiency) on a variety of different engines within a given displacement.
Jon.
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Dan - the vacuum valve may be located in the top of the vacuum tank itself.
Since you seem to have decided to go to the BB-1, I would offer a couple of comments concerning that unit that may help you:
(A) Carter produced approximately 60 different BB-1 carburetors. These differ in physical size, air flow size, physical shape, and of course, application. Due to pressure from participants in The Great American Race, the current value of the universal BB-1 (models 245s small, BB1A medium, BB1D medium, and 289s large) is somewhat ridiculous (my opinion). This has caused many unknowing or unscrupulous individuals to offer O.E. application BB-1's WHICH NEED MAJOR MODIFICATIONS TO WORK WELL ON OTHER THAN THE ORIGINAL APPLICATION. The universal BB-1's ALL have externally adjustable main metering jets, throttle shafts which extend on both sides of the throttle body, and adjustable throttle arms (the throttle arm is not permanently attached to the arm, it may be rotated as necessary, and then affixed with a clamp screw).
(
Virtually all of the O.E. BB-1's and the some of the later production universals were designed to be used with a pressure fuel pump. This is not a problem, provided the rebuilder understands that units to be used on gravity feed systems MUST have a larger fuel valve than those for pressure pumps. Three examples: 1928 4 cylinder Chevrolet (gravity feed) used a fuel valve with 0.140 inch opening; 1971 Pontiac 455 H.O. (pressure) used a fuel valve of 0.132 inch; the Carter replacement for the 1950's 6 cylinder Chevrolet (similiar displacement to the 1928 4 cylinder, but pressure feed) used a fuel valve with 0.081 inch opening. The rebuilder must configure the fuel inlet circuit of the carburetor to match the fuel system of the vehicle.You should really like the BB-1, but one caviat: the BB-1 has a true accelerator pump. In my opinion, this can be a dangerous thing unless the driver understands its function. In starting a vehicle with a DOWNDRAFT carburetor (the BB-1 is an updraft), one is taught to pump the accelerator to prime the intake manifold with gasoline. PUMPING THE ACCELERATOR USING AN UPDRAFT CARBURETOR WILL PUMP FUEL OUT OF THE CARBURETOR ONTO THE SURFACE BELOW THE ENGINE!!! When starting an engine with an updraft carburetor, the accelerator should not be used until the engine fires. If necessary to enrich the starting mixture, use the choke. The Stromberg model SF universal carb (and others) utilize a vacuum accelerator pump (which works AFTER the engine is started). Pumping the footfeed prior to starting the engine with the Stromberg universal results only in exercising the driver's ankle!
Jon.
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Dan - you might take a look at the vacuum valve controling the vacuum tank. It is possible for this valve to stick open, allowing raw fuel to enter the manifold bypassing the carburetor. This would cause the hissing sound in the vent hole of the vacuum tank, and the engine would run extremely rich.
Regardless of the solution to this problem, would suggest that you take a really hard look at that U-2 carburetor. The zinc alloy used had much more lead content than that made later. Different companies changed the mix at different times (Stromberg by about 1933). You are fortunate in that the U-2 is of sufficient popularity that the castings have been reproduced (in Australia) in aluminum, and are readily available.
MOST PROFESSIONAL CARBURETOR RESTORERS WILL REFUSE TO DO ONE OF THESE UNLESS ALL OF THE ZINC ALLOY IS REPLACED BY MODERN ALLUMINUM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am surprised that you found someone to rebuild yours.
The early zinc alloy, EVEN IF IT LOOKS GOOD, is a bomb awaiting an opportunity. Metal must be capable of expanding and contracting with heating cooling cycles. As this lead-rich zinc alloy ages, it loses its ability to expand/contract and instead builds up internal pressure. When the pressure is sufficient, the metal will crack. The cracking can be of sufficient violence to act like a hand grenade!
The ONLY reason to maintain an original carburetor of this type is a "museum" vehicle that is never started.
No, I do not sell the reproduced U-2 castings, thus am not trying to "grind my own ax"; but safety should be everyone's responsibility. The Dodge Brothers club, last I heard, was importing them, thus amortizing the shipping from Australia. Try contacting them.
The Carter BB-1 is an excellent replacement for a daily driver. There are other replacements as well.
Jon.
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If the carburetor has been "professionally" rebuilt, the first thing to do is consult with the "professional". A little troubleshooting should be a part of the rebuilding price.
If the shop doing the work won't help, and you must do it yourself; you need to run some simple tests.
(1) You mention that the pump is getting gas to the fuel filter. If you disconnect the fuel line AT THE CARBURETOR and attach the line to a hose to run into a can and crank the engine, do you get fuel into the can. This test will prove/disprove whether you have fuel at the carburetor itself. If you have fuel at the carb go to number 2, else change fuel filter, blow out fuel line, and repeat test.
(2) Did you pick up the carburetor, or was it shipped to you? We have had on rare occasions (3, if memory serves) where the shipper treated the package so roughly that the float valve was wedged into the seat. To determine if the carb will function, fill the carburetor (engine off) by adding fuel to the carburetor through the bowl vent until it overflows. Start the engine without pouring additional fuel into the carburetor. The engine should run for 15~20 seconds until the bowl runs dry. If true, the carb will need to be opened up (best to have the "professional" do this to maintain your warranty and free up the float. If the engine will not run from the fuel in the bowl, the carburetor needs to come apart as before. There is a possibility that this test might free up a stuck fuel valve and things perform normally, but the odds aren't real good for this.
Good luck.
Jon.
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Bill - Carter changed metering rods on the primary side for high altitude using the AFB carbs; not jets. Since the effective metering area of the primary is the diameter of the jet less the diameter of the rod AT A SPECIFIC VACUUM; changing the jet will change the metering percentages at high and low vacuum at a different rate.
Standard calibration is sea level to 4000 feet.
One size lean is 4001 to 6000 feet.
Two sizes lean is 6001 to 7000 feet.
If you are just "driving through", probably leave it alone (carry a spare set of spark plugs if you wish). If you are relocating to an altitude above 4000 feet, give some consideration to recalibrating the carburetor.
CAVIAT!!! BE VERY CAREFUL OF CHANGING RODS WITHOUT GOOD INFORMATION. THERE ARE AT LEAST SIX (6) DIFFERENT ROD CONFIGUATIONS (LENGTH) FOR THE CARTER AFB! NONE of the aftermarket rods which were in the later Carter "Strip kits" were applicable to your Buick carburetor!
If you are relocating, and wish to recalibrate the carburetor; you need to know the following:
(A) average altitude where you will do most of your driving.
(
stock rod dimensions (base, high vacuum, mid-range if used, low vacuum diameters, steps, and lead-ins)© percentage desired decrease in fuel metering (you should also take in to account deathanol, if it will be used).
Jon.
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Packard 120 carb for 1935-1936 would be a Stromberg EE-14 (cast on the throttle body). The EE-14 has the weird Packard trapezoidal 4 bolt flange. Ford did not use this flange (very few did, except Packard). However, the EE-14 looks very similiar to the Ford carb with the exception of the flange (Ford's was a 3 bolt); and the linkage.
Jon.
Virtually all of the O.E. BB-1's and the some of the later production universals were designed to be used with a pressure fuel pump. This is not a problem, provided the rebuilder understands that units to be used on gravity feed systems MUST have a larger fuel valve than those for pressure pumps. Three examples: 1928 4 cylinder Chevrolet (gravity feed) used a fuel valve with 0.140 inch opening; 1971 Pontiac 455 H.O. (pressure) used a fuel valve of 0.132 inch; the Carter replacement for the 1950's 6 cylinder Chevrolet (similiar displacement to the 1928 4 cylinder, but pressure feed) used a fuel valve with 0.081 inch opening. The rebuilder must configure the fuel inlet circuit of the carburetor to match the fuel system of the vehicle.
Carb question
in Ford and Mercury - 1932 to 1953
Posted
Try Google with the parameters Mercury Holley 694
Jon.