scott12180

Hi all, I'm going to look at a Packard 120 that is for sale. Can someone give a few comments on the reliability, driveability, parts availability, etc. of the 120 model? This car is a 1939. Any commments on things to look for or watch out for on a 1939? Is there a year people think is a better year or best year for the Packard 120? I'm looking for a good "daily driver" car and not a show car. Appreciate your thoughts --Scott

I'm working on a 1926 Packard Eight. I need to make new valve spring retainers and keys for the slotted valve stems because the original ones were discarded by a previous owner. Do I need to make these spring retainers and valve stem keys out of hardened steel, or can they be non-hardened steel? SHOULD they be NON-hardened?? MUST they be hardened? I bought the keys from Egge but am surprised that they are a very soft steel. Our machinist thinks there is no need for the retainers and keys to be hardened because there is no movement between mating surfaces. Only inertial loading. A friend in the restoration business thinks they should all be hardened. Any opinions? --Scott PS: The original Packard spring retainer (the only one I have) appears not to be hardened.

I'm working on a 1926 Packard Eight. I need to make new valve spring retainers and keys for the slotted valve stems because the original ones were discarded by a previous owner. Do I need to make these spring retainers and valve stem keys out of hardened steel, or can they be non-hardened steel? SHOULD they be NON-hardened?? MUST they be hardened? I bought the keys from Egge but am surprised that they are a very soft steel. Our machinist thinks there is no need for the retainers and keys to be hardened because there is no movement between mating surfaces. Only inertial loading. A friend in the restoration business thinks they should all be hardened. Any opinions? --Scott PS: The original Packard spring retainer (the only one I have) appears not to be hardened.

Hello -- I am working on a 1926 Packard Eight and am interested in any parts that may be available. I would espcially like to find a parts car, a complete chassis or an engine. Also a radiator shell and headlamps. --Scott

Hello -- I am working on a 1926 Packard Eight and am interested in any parts that may be available. I would espcially like to find a parts car, a complete chassis or an engine. Also a radiator shell and headlamps. --Scott

I'm working on a 1926 Packard Eight. I posted to this group (probably the Packard or Classic group) before on this engine. I've rebabbitted all eight rods, checked the mains and they are all good with 0.002" clearance, I'm having the cylinders bored and new pistons installed, a couple new valves, a handfull of new guides....etc. Since the mains are all good, I don't want to pull the crankcase out --- too much for me to handle in my garage. So, I'll remove of as much sludge as I conveniently can. All this started with a subtle knock that went away when oil pressure built up. I'm glad I paid attention to that knock. I found so much loose and amiss in that engine, even though I bought the car with the understanding that the engine had been rebuilt. Somebody did have it apart, but they did a truly half-assed job. It's a testament to these old iron L-heads that they will run as well as they do with so much wrong inside. --Scott

If you are rebuilding a large old engine (1920's) but not removing the crankcase and crankshaft --- leaving the crankcase in the car --- what would you do about the accumulated oil sludge which coats everything in the crankcase? Wipe it off as best you can with kerosene and a cloth, or just leave it alone and let detergent oil gradually clean it off? I hate putting the engine back together with all the sludge inside, but some people have warned that it you disturb it, what you can't remove could come off in chuncks which would be bad. --Scott

Hello, Can someone tell me the original compression height (wrist pin center to top) of a piston for a 1st or 2nd series Eight Packard, 1925-1926? (3-3/8" bore.) Perhaps someone has an original Packard piston that can be measured? Thanks --- Scott

Thanks for the advice. Kanter has mostly parts for post-1929 cars, so they were no help. However, Olson's in Seattle did have NOS gaskets. So I'm all set. Thanks very much. --Scott

Hello, Can someone suggest where I could find a head gasket for a 1926 Packard Eight Cylinder engine? Second series Eight, Model 236. Thanks very much --- Scott

My oil pressure with the worn bearings was as high as I wanted it. In other words, I could increase the pressure to beyond 50 pounds, if I set the pump that high. When driving, the pressure would stay the same. Very little variation. After some experimenting I found that 40 pounds was a comforable pressure and left it there. Older Packard connecting rod bearings have no side play on the crankshaft journal. The babbitted rod bearing sits quite confortably into a recessed space on the crankshaft eliminating side play. That could be why oil pressure remains high even if the rods are as much as 0.006". The answer the other question about side tabs on inserts in such an engine may also have to do with the no-sideplay aspect of these engines. I do not know anything about putting inserts into older engine, so like the man said, advice here is worth what you paid for it. We have had some good advocation for insert bearings on this thread. I thank everyone for their thoughts. Much appreciated. I would suggest that someone considering inserts on an older engine find a professional rebuilder of good reputation who does NOT like inserts and ask them why. I'll bet their answer will be very interesting. At the very least, it will allow you to make ann informed decision either way. (And please post their response here ! ) --Scott

I do agree that insert bearings in the connecting rods are probably the best way to go. There are those in the professional business who disagree, however. My own feeling is that babitt for bearings in older engines is fine provided that you do not run the engine too hard. There are businesses that specialize in replacing babitt -- "The Babitt Pot" in Glens Falls, NY is one. If the babbitt is relativly new, then if run hard or under large clearances, it will "pound out" producing ever larger clearances. If the babbitt is ancient (from the 1920's or earlier) and the rods get too loose the babbitt will shatter like glass. Old babbitt has larger crystal grain sizes versus new babbitt, hence it looses its plasticity. Very much like bending a copper or aluminum rod back and forth until it breaks. The grain sizes on the fracture surface will be significantly larger than in the base metal. It is true that with a five-inch stroke you are placing alot more stress on the rod bearings than a shorter stroke. The answer is to drive your anqique car as if it were an antique car. Slowly. If you do not have high speed gearing or an overdrive, keep speeds below 35 mph. On my Packard with an overdrive, I never get it above 45. With babbitt connecting rods, you can "take up" the bearing a small amount if there is excessive clearance. This was standard procedure back in the old days. Again, I believe the key to driving a car with these kinds of repairs is to keep the rpm's down. If you need to get on the interstate occasionally or keep up with traffic on congested roads, then definitely do whatever it takes to upgrade the engine. I do agree that the very best is to have your engine done fully by a profesional. That costs big bucks, though, that many of us don't have. You can drive and have a whole lot of fun by doing a few minor repairs on your own. Take off the pan and clean all the sludge and make sure the oil pump works well. I think it's OK to take up the rods. If you've got reasonable compression, it's OK to drive it without new pistons, rings, valves, etc. Once again, it's OK to do these things provided that you are vigalent about driving slowly and gently. Resist the popular temptation to rev up the engine, have jackrabbit accelleration and cruise at 60 in a largely original 80 year old engine. My $0.02 --Scott

Very interesting. I didn't know about that detail of early Chrysler brakes. Thanks. You're right -- even the first Model T's had internal expanding rear brakes, but they were simply cast iron shoes, no lining, operating against pressed-steel drums. Hardly worth anything even in an "emergency". They were OK as parking brakes, though. Four wheel brakes were like the electric starter. Once one major manufacturer started to use it successfully, soon everyone had to have them to stay in the game. I'm not an expert here, but I would guess that by 1925 most manufacturers had four wheel brakes. Hydraulic brakes were another story. Some adopted them very early, while others held out for years. Ford had cable mechanical brakes until 1939, but even Packard didn't adopt hydraulic brakes for its senior line until 1938 (?). Pierce Arrow was another to use mechanical brakes for a long time. Bugatti another... And these are big names in the industry. Personally, I like cable-mechanical brakes on my cars. Yes, a little more annual maintenance, and you need to know how to adjust them properly, but when working well, they really do a great job. Hydraulics suffer from rust, deterioration of the seals, cracking in the hoses, etc. And as they said back then "One little leak makes all four brakes fail." Getting good seals was probably the challenge back in the 1920's and 30's. I don't think they had O-ring technology back then. Or if so, it wasnt' like it is today. As an aside, today most braking is done on the front wheels, something like 70%. Back in the 1920's, engineers either didn't appreciate the physics or they were simply afraid of putting that much stress on the front wheels. My 1926 Packard does about 65% on the rear wheels, 35% on the front. The mechanism assures that you never get more braking on the front than the rear. Interesting topic. --Scott

Although I can't answer your questions accurately, I can say that Packard began to use four wheel brakes made by Bendix in 1923. They were internal expanding, three shoes --- two self-energized for the forward drection, one for reverse. Chrysler adopted four wheel brakes with its new Six in 1924 (January 1924). They used Lockheed and I'm sure they were internal expanding. --Scott

This reply is carried over from "Stink'en NY inspection stickers!" "Silverghost" replied that he was insured through JC Taylor when he was 17 years old. I was too, except I was only 16 when I first put my Model T on the road. Only problem: that was about 30 years ago. When I registered my 1926 Packard two years ago, all of the antique car insurance companies I contacted had exclusions for anyone under 25 years old. No one would insure a younger driver and there was nothing to be done about it. If you are under 25, you aren't allowed to drive an antique car. Huh??? I don't have a kid that age so it doesn't effect me directly, but since I was rebuilding Model T's and driving them at 16, I really am concerned for the future of the pre-war car hobby if young guys are not allowed to drive old cars. They are already so caught up with computers and, with very few exceptions, have very little interest in cars these days. I'm a professor at an engineering school and always show photos of the Packard to my class. You would expect that here of all places there would be guys interested in old cars. But out of nearly 1000 students I've had over four years, no one has shown any interest. --Scott Troy, NY

Hi, I have a 1926 Packard Eight. What should the connecting rod bearing clearances be? These are the original babbit bearings. I have measured 0.004 - 0.006" on two rods so far. Is that excessive? What can I do? There are no shims in the caps. I do have a knock on start-up which disappears when oil pressure builds, and that odd noise I sometimes hear around 25 mph I am now thinking may be the rods. Thanks --- Scott

Hi, I have a 1926 Packard Eight. What should the connecting rod bearing clearances be? These are the original babbit bearings. I have measured 0.004 - 0.006" on two rods so far. Is that excessive? What can I do? There are no shims in the caps. I do have a knock on start-up which disappears when oil pressure builds, and that odd noise I sometimes hear around 25 mph I am now thinking may be the rods. Thanks --- Scott

I think the very best driving Twin Six is the third series because by then they ironed out all the problems and produced a truly robust car. The first series with non-detachable heads is a bit of a problem although how often do you really need to remove the head?? Valves are acessible through screw-caps. The bigger problem is that the first series Twin tends to have a somewhat inadequate cooling syetem. This got better with the second series, and by the third series they really increased cooling capacity. However, I've been told that if you install a new radiator and have the engine tuned well, even a first series will run cool enough. So I've been told... I've also known owners of first series to install an auxillary radiator ! Another problem with Twins is the carburetor is in the V-ee of the engine, and the exhaust manifolds are ALSO in the V-ee. That makes for a very hot carburetor. So much that during the 1980's when gasoline was very bad, it was almost impossible to run one without vapor lock. Things are better today, but most owners still go through overtures to keep the carburetor cool. This placement of the carburetor was a good idea for 1915-1919 because gasoline was very poor in the opposite sense, in that it was hard to vaporize. You wanted a hot carburetor. Not so today. At any rate, all of this is surmountable. (Anything can be done with a deep enough checkbook.) Good luck looking for a Twin. You may contact Bill Boudway in Canandaguia, NY. He's supposedly the Keeper of the List for Twin Sixes although when I inquired he knew of nothing. Brad Skinner was THE Twin Six man for years and years. He lived in Bartlesville, Oklahoma, but he died several years ago. Very nice guy. Drove to Hershey right up to the year he died in his 80's. Send me a private e-mail with your address and I'll keep my eyes open if I hear of anything....anything that I don't want, that is ! --Scott

On the overdrive, mine is a Mitchell unit. Made in California by a small family-run business. Nice folks. They originally made these things for motor homes and trucks, then branched out into antique cars when they realized there was a need. They come in a variety of four gearings --- something like 26%, 33%, one lower and one higher. I forget. You can change gears even after you buy the unit, which is nice. I got the 26% overdrive. I still sometimes wish I could have a higher speed, but I live in western New England and upstate New York with lots of hills and a great many slow country roads, so 26% is perfect for me. The unit mounts amidships, so you need to make a new driveshaft that has two sections -- one in front of the OD and the second in back. Up through 1933 (I think) you can easilly mount the overdrive to the frame. On those Packards with the X-member on the frame, it probably makes it alot harder to mount. I've thought about the practicality of mounting one on a Twin Six, but I think it wouldn't work due to interference with the torque arm. --Scott

Well, yes, theoretically a Twin will go as fast as 70 mph. When the Twin was announced it was driven around the speedway at Indianapolis, reaching 70 mph with top and windshield up, so they are capable. But you certainly don't want to push an 85 year old car that fast. They are still geared rather low to suit the conditions of the day. The ones that I drove seemed comfortable at 40-45. It's the babbit in the engine bearings that gets pounded at high speeds. Remember these things have a long stroke, so that's alot of mass slinging around in there. The last thing you want is to throw a rod on a Twin Six engine. And, too, how do you stop the thing at 60 mph??? No, my philosophy has always been to drive an antique car like an antique. Even with my 1926 Eight and its overdrive, I never get it above 50, typically cruising at 40 - 45. Steve -- what do you like, the 1st, 2nd or 3rd Series? Me, I want a 1st or 2nd. --Scott

Hi Steve, There are a number of Twin Sixes around but I don't see them driven. I think the brakes are the big issue, as they are a heavy car with two wheel brakes only. Fuel is not a problem. They should cruise nicely at 40 - 45 as you would expect. The problem is tring to stop them. That and alot of owners are now elderly and have a hard time handling a substantial car. And, too I guess, parts just aren't as plentiful as with later cars. And.... (I keep thinking of things) for all but the 1915's, there isn't a club hosting tours for Twins to participate with their own vintage, so you see them very seldomly on the road. Check the web site "packardsonline.com" for a list of what's owned and by whom. Twin Sixes are magnificent cars and I've wanted one for thirty years. I own a 1926 236 (Eight) Phaeton which is a delightful road car with a powerful engine, overdrive and four wheel brakes. Even if I had a Twin, I'd probably be more inclined to go for local drives with the Eight. Do you have a Twin Six? --Scott dwyers@rpi.edu

Hi, Is the 1938 Buick Special a car that could really use an overdrive or high speed gears if it has the stock rear end? Is it very hard to find the rear axle from a Century or some other faster-geared car? Can I install an overdrive? Who makes one that fits? I'm looking for a 1938 and find there are alot of Specials around, but relativly few Centuries or Roadmasters. I was hoping for a car that would be able to do 55-60 without the engine screaming. --Scott

Hi all, Is there a way to remove water stains from the headliner of a Sedan? The car, a 1934 Pierce-Arrow, had a roof leak in a rainstorm a few years ago which wet the headliner near the rear window. The owners did not do anything to remove the stains at the time. Can the stains be removed at all?? Thanks --- Scott

Hi all, Is there a way to remove water stains from the headliner of a Sedan? The car had a roof leak in a rainstorm a few years ago which wet the headliner near the rear window. The owners did not do anything to remove the stains. Can they be removed at all?? Thanks --- Scott

I should also add that installing high speed gears is not as trivial as removing the old ones and bolting the new ones in. Differential ring and pinion gears need to be fitted. The contact patch of one tooth of the pinion needs to be just right to the corresponding toothvalley of the ring --- exactly where on the tooth the contact is, the heel and toe adjustment, etc. If done incorrectly the differential will be noisy and the gears could fail. There is literature out there outlining how to do it, but for best results I'd get a professional, unless you are willing to invest the time learing the art. Installing a Mitchell overdrive isn't all that complicated. I think the average good-with-tools owner could handle it. You need to watch for alignment, making sure the universals on the front and rear of each driveshaft have the same angle. Not hard, just tedious. You'll need to cut some thick metal that Mitchell provides and maybe get creative on how to mount it. Access to a machine shop or serious tools is probably a must. I'd say that on most 1930's cars, the biggest problem might be the frame brace --- that "X-member" in the middle of the frame, as that's just about where the Mitchell want's to live. My 1926 didn't have that, of course, so my installation was straight forward. Someone, who's name I forget, makes a rebuilt old Borg-Warner overdrive that bolts onto the pinion gear housing on the differential. You send himm your pinion housing and he will fit his OD to it. I've no experience with this. --Scott --Scott