Twitch

On another forum I visited a guy had a question about whether he should buy a 57 Bel Air 283CID 4 dr. sedan for $2000. Pictures show the car without surface rust and in fact primered where little dents and dings had been fixed. The chrome looks good enough that it might buff up good enough to use on a driver car. It is all there. No floor and trunk rust. Whaddya think? Here is one of the pics I said just look at NADA, Gold Book, Collector Car Market Review for a idea of how prices are. I know 2 people who each spent about 12K on restoring Bel Air 4 doors. There was a wide range of opinions- 4 doors aren't worth anything except for parts You can't restore a car for just 12K There's no guarantee it'll be worth more in 5 years. What do you guys think?

If you check NADA.com you'll see the car listed at the HIGH end of $121,000. Nad NADA reflects a higher value across the board of all vehicles I've noticed. So I guess 20K extra could be rationalized out as a regional premium or something. The real problem with all these appraisls comes down to defining what category a cars falls into- Average Retail Value This vehicle would be in good condition overall. It could be an older restoration or a well-maintained original vehicle. Completely operable. The exterior paint, trim, and mechanics are presentable and serviceable inside and out. A "20-footer". High Retail Value This vehicle would be in excellent condition overall. It could be a completely restored or an extremely well maintained original vehicle showing very minimal wear. The exterior paint, trim, and mechanics are not in need of reconditioning. The interior would be in excellent condition. Note: This value does not represent a "100 Point" or "# 1" vehicle *. * "100 Point" or "# 1" vehicle is not driven. It would generally be in a museum or transported in an enclosed trailer to concourse judging and car shows. This type of car would be stored in a climate-regulated facility. The Packard in "average" condition lists out at just about $72,000. So there's a huge variation in price/value depending on who is interpreting what in an evaluation.

I use 87 in mine but do drop in a couple ounces of lead substitute per tank. A $5 quart bottle will last years. It can't hurt and there's no cost involved.

The whole web is my favorite site! I've used a free wallpaper/screensaver program from Webshots.com for years to categorize my pix and such. I use all the search engines to display images of a particular year or marque I'm hunting for and download them. I have about 5,000 pix now. I've found that many images displayed o the net in small scale are actually high pixel and will expand to screen size clearly. On any site that will not allow me to download I have a freeware scren snatcher program so I can get any image I want.

That $8,500 rusting hulk is made for Boyd Coddington and his merry men!

As a seller this individual has only made 10 transactions. One was highly disatisfied. This makes his actual seller feedback rate only 90%. 90% is far below a percentage most seasoned Ebay buyers would even buy a $10 item from. The disatisfied party is another Ebay dealer. Look at HIS feedback 1062 sales and a 99.5% positive feedback. The guy I bought my Packard from has been selling on Ebay since 1999 with 723 positive feedback at 99.7!!!! See the difference? Stay far away from this guy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well the 37 Victoria convert shows a $120,000 value from NADA which is higher than all other evaluators so let's assume the additional 20K premium was justified. The Ruxton is one of those intangables really in the Duesenberg neighborhood to when one is available at any price its a bargain. The one big auction house - can't think of the name right now- was closing up- Christies, was it? They used to handle the pricey autos quite a bit. So if you're selling off your exotic cars don't go with B&J if you want the best price.

I signed up with Dish for 2 more years recently under my wife's name. Enterprising sellers just get you to switch name and you get extra room installs as a "new" customer and whatnot. As I said the atmosphere is so strained and phoney with ringer cars rolling by as some huckster babbles and shoots bars at auctioners about how cheap they are. I can stand about 5 minutes only. Then I watch something serious like "You can't Cheap an Honest Man" Where W.C. Fields plays Larsen E. Whipsnake.

Wayne- I'm glad I got to live through the era of course not knowing it was a golden age of sorts. Then I sure never thought I'd see the industry turn to crap attempting to clone the foreigners. Though the industry smoothed out we're still stuck with lack of interchangeability that makes everything cost more. Kuhner it's the flaw of relativity. In 1962 39-40 Fords went for $175 because nobody wanted old cars, except some kids. Nobody wants a Taurus either. And there are still idiots today that say "yeah, people back then shoulda known that all old and derelict cars would be sought after someday." It's all when and how much? Nobody could answer that.

Like Skyking it's extra and i won't pay. They do show some every couple months but they are so full of fake red herring cars relative to the total in the hobby I have to laugh and turn it off.

You can go here for a similar, recent discussion of this content http://forums.aaca.org/ubbthreads.php?ub...true#Post477154 Obviously NADA.com is leaning heavily on auctions or whatever they smoke. I had occassion to look up 57 Bel Air 2dr. HT there and at http://www.vmrintl.com/ and NADA. The difference is ridiculous. The cars that are shown on TV auctions are unrealistic relative to the vast number of vehicles out there. After they turn off the cameras and roll out the normal #2-#4 cars would I even bother to be interested. The rest, like almost everything else on TV is for ratings. We all know there is a finite number of of absolutely perfect #1 or 100 pointer 58 Mercurys. The vast majority are less than perfect yet via the warped TV eye all we see are those #1 cars. The fact that they get the high $ #s when sold invades the regular market since everybody begins pricing their rollin wrecks at concours quality too. TV auctions are bogus!

Anyone seeking paint or any work does need to have the shop quantify exactly what they do in detail for the quoted price. My Z-28 was painted in the trunk, door jambs and underhood. There is a lot of competition out there and overhead is vastly different depending on the zip code too. Speaking of getting detailed quotes- a guy I know has a 68 Mustang. It is by no means concours in any way. It's his daily driver. When it was time for an engine rebuild he took it someplace and specified to them he wanted them to rebuild THAT engine. What happens? They replaced it with a short or long block from a rebuilder. AAAAAAAAAH!

Just goes to SHO how things have changed. I can vividly recall the 60s when The GM, Ford and Chrysler lines were truly at their best in interchangability. You could drop a 409 into a 58 Biscayne where a 6 had been. You could upgrade and bolt in trannies in any car almost. Sleepers could be made- 427 Falcons, 426 Darts, 427 Novas. Parts would interchange within the marque and usually withing the family- accessories were swapable for most GM, Ford-Mercury and Chryslers products. Alas today we're stuck with requiring a specialized and unique starter or alternator for each and every vehicles in every line. And engine swaps? Forget about it! Anyhow Wayne's comment gave me a flashback.

A million Camaro owners took off the full across front bumper and replaced them with the bumperettes. Seen it all over on many old Camaros. But with the evaluations theses day old Camaros are getting out of sight versus the "regular guy" perception of value. Go to NADA and look at 73 Z-28s. Obscene. I don't even think they're worth that! Back to paint jobs- A person has simply got to get out and basically interview prospective places to do it. You need to see some of their work and look at their facility. Each place besides Shieb or Maaco has a one price job which is their best attention to a car. The reason you need to shop around is because this price will vary shop to shop because of things like overhead, time in business, quality of personnel and workflow. One guy needs to get $5,000 while another would require $8,000 for an identical finish.

People are so dumb. About as smart as putting Armorall on the gas, clutch and brake pedals. You know what happens next.

In 1942 WW II Germany refined fuel from anthracite. Devices that looked a bit like mini home water heaters in the trunk digested wood chips, anthracite coal, lignite coal, coke, gas, and peat moss. In 1942 is saved 5 million barrels and 8.2 million in 1943. They were switching to hydrogen fuel for thei plants and factories also which would have saved 60 million barrels by 1946. Fast forward to 1981- A pilot plant for the liquefaction of coal was being constructed in the Ruhr, and on becoming operational in the spring of 1981 it had a capacity for converting 75,000 tons of coal annually into 157,000 barrels of light and medium oil and liquid gas. Early in 1980 the West German government approved an ambitious program involving the construction of 14 large plants for the liquefaction and gasification of coal, requiring the investment of $7 billion by 1993. By 1986 the Germans satisfied 10 percent of their current gasoline needs in this fashion. One thing the US still has is plenty of coal. And Admiral Byrd when exploring Antarctica by air exclaimed about "a coal seam large enough to serve the needs of the planet for a hundred years" Of course that area is off limits to resource development......

Very nifty site!!

62ducequater- are you going to be using the car in a regular or daily transportation basis? I can remember my '57 Olds which could put out power with lights on but if you ran the heater fan or radio it would draw down the battery in the cold St. Louis night time weather in no time. With today's batteries that shouldn't be a problem. I will say that almost everyone in So. Cal. runs an alternator whether they drive much or not. And this is even on stockers.

Zonda- The ignoramouses pawing the V-16 were 4 people out of hundreds. They venue is perpetually safe. Once he got set up after parking everything went nicely. We all find no end to talking with viewers. Each car at an event has some memory or stigma for viewers who want to share it all with you. The old cars tickle the nostalgia like little else does. I simply don't see truly expensive/exotic classics at local cruise-ins or summer car shows. Where are they? These vehicles owners attend more upscale events that actually cost money for viewers to enter and the cars may be roped off I suppose. Everybody thinks they'd drive their half million dollar car around as if it was a beater. We imagine that if we were rich enough these would be daily drivers instead of new Maybachs and Bentleys. The reality is we'd be very tired of beefing them around after any length of time and would do our daily cruising in the Bentley. Yeah we maybe would drive our Caddy V-16 once a week OK? We have to reckon that people are civilized and would do no harm to display cars. We go into the restaurant and eat leaving out cars alone, but the other owners keep eyes out. The fact that some locations where events are held are not equal to others in drawing only civil people. The fact is that onlookers generally know you are one of the guys sitting in the chairs behind the cars and don't go opening doors or touching things. That's what keeps it all neutral. 48Lincoln- Your friend Jay Leno has mellowed in the last few years and actually walks amongst the people at times! He used to tell how he'd take out one of his old cars with a definite route in mind and never stopped for anything so people wouldn't talk to him and croaw around the car! That's how he lived with his cars. Anyone that has as many cars as he has can't possibly do anything to them. He ain't got the time. That's fine. You may say cars are cars are cars but uh, it ain't so in my opinion. An $8,000 49 Hudson 4-dr in "not too bad of shape original condition" pretty much means it needs complete restoration in all areas to be showroom again. Doesn't mean we can't drive it and enjoy it "as is." Just like everyone don't like modded cars some just don't like half derilict looking cars even if the owner enjoys the heap. But even if we restore the Huddy it's still reasonable in value- $20,000- the cost of an almost new daily driver. So there you are. On the other side of the hobby are the truly rare and exotic cars many of which are the only examples remaining. Sure rich folks look at the hobby differently. Yeah cars is cars but even the rich have protective feelings for their cars no matter if they're insured to the hilt. Most of them have no specialized mechanical skills for auto restoration. Even if one chap like Leno was mechanical it doesn't guarantee he could upholster or hammer out aluminum body panels or paint the car to perfection. Hey I can't either so that puts them on par with Joe Schmoes like me. And when they do show their cars at prestige events I have absolutely no problem appreciating them behind ropes just like the museums because many of the Councours event cars are as good or better than museum examples. And sorry but I don't buy what you're selling as to the fact that allegedly values are mostly set by auctions. Auctions are only one aspect and it states to beware of the BS belief that auctions are a yardstick for estimating values for vintage vehicles. Collector Car Market Review says- "Pricing sources: Auctions, sales reports, Value-Track® database, classifieds and the general market (contacts, shows, etc.)."..... ......."About Auction Results: Auctions are just one part of the collector car marketplace. Many collectors get the impression that if they see a 1957 Chevy sell for $70,000 at a major auction, then theirs must be worth that, too. This is a misconception. Auctions often bring above market prices for very nice cars. The reasons are many: there's money in the audience, egos come into play, bidders can get caught in the moment, and sometimes the cars that show up to an auction such as Barrett-Jackson or Pebble Beach are just stunning, one-of-a-kind, mega-buck restorations. Unfortunately, all is not always as it seems at an auction. Sometimes prices are bid up with "phantom" bidders, cars are declared sold that aren't, and even the bidding can be completely fabricated. In addition, dealers may bid among themselves soley to create the illusion of both interest and high values for specific cars. This doesn't mean that you should always avoid collector car auctions. Go to a few and observe what goes on, get a feel for how things work and decide for yourself. If you do decide to bid, ask the seller a lot of questions. Sellers with good cars will be more than happy to talk to you. Finally, our auction editors tend to be conservative in their condition estimates. Take this into consideration when viewing auction results and the sale or bid price." Every event I go to I tell someone of whatever age that they can own a vintage car. They don't have to spend 50K for a 57 Chevy. They can get a nice Studebaker for $6,000 or that Hudson for $8,000. Maybe a nice 51 Nash for $7,000. And the older guys I encourage more than others since it's time they did something for themselves after a lifetime of working for their kids and a house.

Phoney. They'd later somehow attempt to get you to send the item before their bogus check or money order cleared.

I don't know where you are but there certainly is an alternative to 15K, doing it yourself, of taking it to Maaco. You need to shop around!! For what it is worth 2 years ago a custom shop did my Z-28 for $3,500. That's down to bare metal too. And it was rough from previous damage repair and lots of old paint! This is in Southern California too. So if I could find a decent price here you should be able to.

There is the "lead substitute" in the jug that cost a few pennies per tank full. It certainly doesn't hurt anything.

There are tire brushes made out of short brass bristles that work great with whatever detergent you use. Easier to use than sand paper and last many years.

Ron- right, depending on the venue owners will be wary of onlookers but for good reason. There are street-park cruise-ins places where kids on bikes ride by. Scraaatch! There are neighborhoods where people of all ages are "handier" than others and are unable to resist touching. I've let kids, with their parents, sit in my Packard after talking to them awhile. It's just an average special interest car, not a work of art. We talk about trailered cars of great value. Well at one cruise-in this guy shows up with this V-16 Cadillac He was pretty old and not all that cognizant of the throng of people that suddenly was at the car. Immediately there was a a woman, wife of another vintage car owner, leaning with her juicy armpit on the top of the door and a kid on the running board! Before a couple of the nearby owners were able to get a watch set up to help the Cad owner many hands were on it. Some teenager even opened the door and I yelled at him. THIS is why owners of quarter million dollar and up cars don't go to neighborhood events. As for hanging out with people and #4 cars, 48 Lincoln, opposed to concours types. I've done enough hanging out with Joe Doaks and his ubiquitous 57 Chevy 4 dr. sedan. The vehicles represented at a place like Pebble Beach are truly museum quality in rarity, function and appearance. Most assuredly I would not want many viewers in touching range of my Figoni et Falaschi Talbot-Lago or Delahaye either. And I wouldn't expect an owner of such a masterpiece to have done any wrenching on it either. Exotic autos are best restored by qualified experts. Even Leno, who was a motorcycle mechanic doesn't get his hands into things. He has people for that. In the concours end of the hobby there is no shame in spending high dollars for impressive results. The B & J auctions are simply pissing contests with nouvo rich schlubs with more money than brains overspending for regular vehicles like 66 Comet Cyclones. The people who trailer legitimately superb autos are not to blame for artificial prices so "kids" can't get into the hobby either. The auction crowd bidding up cars of dubious heritage and value then re-negotiating with their insurance companies to re-evaluate are mostly to blame. They put a super high reserve on a car worth 50K. The dummies with money to burn and the "by God I want that car no matter what!" attitude bid it up to 85K and of course the reserve holds it. The owner has legal bids for 85K and his insurance now ups its value. In fact there was a B & J auction where a very nice Mustang worth 15K anywhere got bid to 85K in a war between 2 chumps. Then our buddy Joe Doaks sees that and figures his rat trap 66 Mustang is also worth much more than imaginable. I see cars for sale at events all the time at outreagous prices and find several equal or better cars on Ebay for 2/3s less when I go home. Problem is there are enough dummies with $$ willing to pay above premium prices because they think they're "investing" instead of just having fun with old cars. Trailers make sense for a guy like Skyking even though his vehicles aren't councours cars. They make sense for moving multiple cars to a venue. If a guy trailers his $80,000 un-rare Chevy in relative terms it probably represents as big an investment as the Concours guy's $3 million Dusenberg. People should just do what they wanna do. It's their cars and their moneys..

Willy- exactly! Population Marion MT 623 '28 Whippet enthusiasts 1 Places to get parts 0