Shop Rat
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Posts posted by Shop Rat
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I totally agree with packards42. The way we judge, with the exception of the scores, is an open book. Please do sign up and go to the judging school at the next meet you go to. And the roundtable discussion which is usually just prior to the judging school. Go at each meet until you fully understand how and why we judge the way we do. It gives owners a leg up on the owners that don't go.
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When I was Team Captain at Hershey there were three vehicles in the 27e class (62-63 production vehicles) that had P type radial tires and one that had regular radial tires.
How is the AACA going to get owners to understand and comply with the rules about tires? This was the first time I had seen that many vehicles with those tires in one class. One guy was nearly nasty when I approached him to talk to him about the P-radials he had on one of his cars. He said, "I will NEVER put bias ply tires on that car!!" Yet the other car he had there had the correct tires. His wife was horrified that he acted like that and talked to me away from where he was. I hope she can calm him down and get him to understand that he needs to put correct tires on the car if he wants it to go higher in the program. They were the only one going for an award and didn't get it. -
Yes, you need to stay within the GE brand or replace all of them so that they match by brand and era within the brand. Some folks think that GE and General Electric are the same. They are not the same era. Brand no longer matters. ie,, vehicles that came from the factory with T-3 headlights no longer have to have those. Purists will still seek them out and use them. The change was made several years back when the T-3 headlight supply dried up. Now they are being produced again but the rule has not been reversed.
Honestly from my perspective it seems a bit nitpicky to be looking at the number of refractive ribs to say they don't match. And headlights are something I always take a good look at if I am the exterior judge or the Team Captain. Many now are trying to slip Halogen headlights in or mixing the brands.
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Yes I read the other part of his statement. The first part of the General Policy should always be displayed with the qualifying portion as well.
The part about the purists not vapor locking smacks very much of him being okay with modifications. If he is then he should not be implying that the rest of us should. Like I said, the rules have not changed. If they do many "purists" will ditch the AACA like rats jumping off of a sinking ship.
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He forgot to quote the whole General Policy. And implied that we accept that "and dealers, then and now, will do whatever is possible to make the customer happy. We must understand this and apply it in a reasonable manner."
That goes against everything in the rest of that policy. We are taught year after year that only factory authorized options are to be accepted without deductions.
The rules have not changed. Otherwise we will be judging street rods, rat rods and modifieds.
The General Policy should have been quoted in it's entirity. Not just the part that many want to use to do what they want.
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We don't "assume" things are wrong when we judge. We ask for factory documentation. In the absence of that the Team Captain can accept or reject the information the owner does provide. We are to err on the side of the owner if the team is not 100% sure about a deduction.
Also a good idea is to remind the owner that they are entitled to 1.5 hours of free research through the AACA Library and Research Center. And that copies of documents from there are accepted by the judges.
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Correct. It is my understanding that this also happened last year at the Charlotte Meet. But since we attended the Team Captain School we attended other CJE's after the judges breakfast. We just didn't pick up on there not being a Team Captain CJE since we had attended the Team Captain School the day before to keep our certification current.
I spoke with Herb and he indicated that we can attend the Team Captain School or the Team Captain CJE at the next Meet we go to during this calendar year.
The Team Captain School or Team Captain CJE are the only required classes other than the mandatory CJE at milestones.
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Thank you from the bottom of my heart for those kind words Wayne.
The reason I asked about a Team Captain CJE was because as a Certified Team Captain all of us that are must attend either the Team Captain School or a Team Captain CJE to remain certified. If we don't within the calendar year we are put on the inactive list until we do. Bill and I have attended the Team Captain School at the Charlotte Meet for about three years. But we decided to go to the regular Judging School this year. With the intentions of going to the Team Captain CJE after the breakfast. So when no one indicated they were teaching it I asked.
We will have to attend one or the other at the Louisville Meet or at the latest the Hershey Meet.
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If a Team Captain School is going to be offered at a Meet, but the Team Captain CJE is not going to be offered, there should be a sign posted as judges come into the area where the schools will be held.
Bill and I had gone to the Team Captain School at the Charlotte Meet for at least two years. This year, thinking there would be a Team Captain CJE on Saturday after the breakfast, we decides to go to the regular Judging School.
After the judge's breakfast.....no Team Captain CJE. Had we known there wouldn't be one we would have gone to the Team Captain School.
The issue would be if for some reason we couldn't get to another meet, neither of us would have completed the requirement to remain in compliance with the requirements to be Certified Team Captains.
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License plate frames/stickers/vinyl lettering /even the metal dealer names are considered advertising and as such would be deducted for. This came up several years ago in a Round Table meeting.
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Not being picked as a Team Captain once someone is Certified does happen as more people need to be certified. We were told about that at the beginning of that program. Sometimes we are and sometimes we are not depending on their needs. But at Grand Nationals they do try their best to have as many of the Team Captains as possible as be Certified Team Captains.
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Has anyone else received a letter from Herb Oakes stating that they have been put on the inactive list as a Team Captain/Certified Team Captain with the reason stated that they haven't fulfilled the requirement to remain active by attending the required Team Captain School or Team Captain CJE? And the letter states that it might go back as far as at least 2009???
Bill got one of those letters yesterday as did a friend of ours. Both of them have indeed not only fulfilled that requirement but are Certified Team Captains and have served as such many times since it was claimed they were not in compliance with the rules.
There has to be a computer glitch or something that has given him bad information. There have been glitches in the past. I got a call several years ago from the gentleman that was the Chief Judge for Fall Hershey saying that I had not attended the required Judging School to judge at Hershey and that neither had Bill. When I was able to get in touch with Vicki Bolton she confirmed that we had both attended the new (at the time) Team Captain School at the Spring Charlotte Meet and she called him and cleared that up. When he called us we were half way to Hershey. It was a scary thing to have happen.
Now this happens. Anyone else get a letter like that? Or know of someone that did?
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Another though came to mind after I depressed the the 'Enter Key' on my previous reply, and here is: Get a 'JUDGING MANUAL', and read the bloody thing because it says it all concerning the AACA judging standards and what we as judges look for. By the way since you're on the Forum why not go out and read the 'ONLINE' copy of the judging manual, and save yourself a few bucks by not buying one from AACA headquarters, or better yet join the AACA judging program and learn what the judges look for.
I agree. I have promoted folks going to the judging school and CJEs for years just to learn how and why we judge the way we do. And now with the Official Judging Guidelines available on-line for free they don't even have to buy one. Or if, as you suggested and I have in the past, they go to the class they get the book for free.
AACA judging is not a secret handshake closed group. Judges will help anyone that wants to learn. In the past at Hershey after the judging I would pick someone from the class I judged or was Team Captain for and go back and hand them my copy of the Guidelines. Not one person turned them down. Everyone took them and thanked me. Now I suggest they come here and read the book here.
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Can you tell me if this tire is a radial or bias?
What it looks like doesn't matter. What it is matters. How did you not get that from what Rick Marsh wrote? The debate is over. He clarified the rule.
If the rule ever changes officially then judges will judge according to the new rule. Until then we judge by the current rules.
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Thank you Rick for taking your time to clarify the AACA position regarding these new radial tires.
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MCHinson, We were told by Herb Oaks and Rick Marsh to look for the incorrect new radial tires and deduct for them when we find them. We weren't told they were okay if they looked okay. We were told they are wrong no matter how they look.
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..... May I say though, telling another club's judges to not join us because of our rules, is just turning away new members. Someday that other club's rules may become our rules. .....Wayne
Wayne, and others, that is not what I said. This is what I said. "...The rules of other clubs do not apply in our system. When someone comes into the AACA they need to check other clubs rules and ways at the door. If someone can not do that, then please don't get into our judging system." I specifically asked that those that can't ignore another clubs rules not try to be AACA judges. That isn't running anyone off that has the ability to put on a new hat and judge the way we do. Some people can't do that. Their other club's way of judging is so ingrained they just can't swing over to the AACA way without having a stroke in the process. Those people drive a Team Captain up a wall with their wanting to judge by rules and standards that currently are not in line with the AACA way of doing things.
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The AACA has it's own rules and the best judges and Certified Team Captains/Team Captains follow them to the letter as written in the Official Judging Guidelines. Personal opinion doesn't matter when it comes to our judging system. Our club is about the preservation of the vehicles as they could have come from the factory, and the dealership, which includes any options for the year, make and specific model of vehicle.
Yes, there are items that have things like Sharpie applied to make them look correct. But as far as I have heard those things are permitted because some items are no longer available due to laws and restrictions. So owners are permitted to use an item that as closely as possible resembles the original piece to keep the vehicle looking as authentic as possible.
Tires don't fall into that. Correct bias ply tires, for vehicles that should have them, are still available. People just don't want to do what needs to be done if they want to ride on radial tires. And that is spend the money to have two sets of tires and rims. One set to ride around in and one set to put on when they show at AACA National Meets. So they are going to take the chance. Well folks, the AACA Judging Committee is now cautioning us to watch for these tires specifically. The penalty for having them is the full 5 points per tire. So you get to choose. Use incorrect tires and take the hit when we catch you. And we will. You might skate past a team with less experience. It happens. But don't wail and throw a tantrum to the V.P. of Class Judging when you get nailed for them. It doesn't matter how far you drove, or trailered your vehicle, or how much money you spent. Those tires are incorrect. They will be deducted for.
Many times the issue that people raise about radials being "safer" and been beaten do death here. As some folks have presented evidence that in truth the older suspension systems and the older wheels weren't designed to have the stress that a radial tire will put on them. So where does it end? How far back into the vehicle do you think they should allow owners to modify their vehicles to have radials. I vote for not at all.
Antique vehicles are like art that moves. Art should not be modified from the way the artist created it.
The rules of other clubs do not apply in our system. When someone comes into the AACA they need to check other clubs rules and ways at the door. If someone can not do that, then please don't get into our judging system. We judge fairly and honestly and to the requirements of the AACA standards.
P.S. The AACA does not require the use of specific brands of headlights, (ie. T-3 Westinghouse, FoMoCo, etc.) The headlights must be correct for the era and they must match by brand and era. GE is not the same as General Electric, they are two different eras. According to the new Guidelines, starting this year, we are now to deduct the full 3 points for headlights that are not the correct era. And we also deduct the full 3 points for any non-matching headlight. If a vehicle has four headlights and they are all different, then only one is considered correct and therefore the vehicle will lose 9 points. Been there and deducted that at the Charlotte Meet. The devil is in the details folks.
Also, brand of tire does not matter. But like headlights they should match, the spare doesn't have to but should be the correct size and type, and be of the correct era. If your vehicle could have had radial tires as a factory option then by all means get them. But be sure to have your factory issued documentation to show to the Team Captain when they ask for it.
It is the duty of all AACA members, not just those that judge, to uphold the rules of this club. If people want change then go about it the right way. Get your published proof together and submit it to the AACA judging committee and see what they say. I got one rule put into the book that had been known about for years but somehow was missed in putting it into the guidelines, the rule about the brand of headlights not mattering. And I got one rule changed because it wasn't fair, they went from us taking the full (at the time) 5 points off per headlight if someone had put Halogen headlights in that shouldn't have had them), to a mandatory 10 points off for even one Halogen headlight. I judged two cars, one had one Halogen out of four and one had two Halogens out of two. It wasn't fair to give them both the same deduction. So I sent and letter and outlined all this and suggested that they reduce the deduction to 3 points per headlight. That was accepted and is now the rule. I went about it the right way.
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The idea is to preserve vehicles as they should be. Not seek ways to get around that. If people want to have radial tires and Halogen headlights then they can do that and still come to AACA shows and put their vehicle in the DPC class where those things are permitted.
This is not a game to see what owners can get away with. Correct tires and headlights are available. Buy them if you want to show in class judging. It really is that simple.
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This was covered by the AACA recognized expert on all things "tire", Eric/Rick Marsh, at the Team Captain's school at the Hornet's Nest Region Spring Meet at Charlotte Motor Speedway this past Saturday.
We were alerted to these new tires with the markings on the inside wall of the tires vs. the standard markings on the outside wall.
1.) We were asked to reconsider putting the judge with the least amount of credit on as the chassis judge. If that person is experienced enough to know what they are looking for then it was okay. But if they aren't then put them on something else and have a more experienced judge handle that so that those tires don't slip through. At five points per tire we can't afford to get this wrong and hand out awards to cheaters.
2.) Eric/Rick suggested that we should go by our local Harbor Freight with the coupon they send out and get one of the free mini LED flashlights to be able to see the back side of the tires to look for the markings. And yes he had one of those flashlights in his pocket to show what size they are and how easily they can be carried.
So be warned....AACA is onto this new trend and they are out to penalized those that want to skirt the rule.
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belkus8, you need to put era correct headlights back into the car if you plan to show it at AACA National Meets. Brand does not matter. But with headlights being 3 points each, you want to correct ones in for the 1939 era for Meets. I hope that helps.
Please don't cheat and put the Halogens in that sort of look correct. They aren't. Exterior judges are being very sharp-eyed about this. All three points will be deducted for each Halogen headlight that is in a vehicle that they were not a factory authorized option for. The same goes for any replacement light that is not correct for the era. The deduction will match the max deduction for that particular light.
Some owners that drive their vehicles in the dark to get to the Meet or back home after a Meet have the brighter modern headlights in to drive and then they swap the lights out for the era correct headlights before the judging begins if it isn't difficult to do.
If you don't plan to show your car at AACA National Meets then put whatever headlights in the car you want to.
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Good catch Bhigdog. You are correct, that could have ended very badly had you not found that.
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Wow, great layout.
You need one of those platforms that lowers down from the ceiling so that you don't have to take the track apart. 
My husband still has the original track he had from the sixties. And two or three original cars. I think one may be a Corvette. I figure they are fairly rare.
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Interesting. What is the little statue on the dash of the Model A?
You need one of those platforms that lowers down from the ceiling so that you don't have to take the track apart. 
Shop Rat??
in General Discussion
Posted
Hello. Thanks so much for asking about me. Bill and I are still active with judging. For about thirteen years I was doing a lot of babysitting and got busy.
I need to come back.