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Buicks Rule

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  1. However, Bruce Andren's suggestion to put an easily removable recovery bottle is a good one. Use the hoses that come with the kit and put a length of the correct black hose in the trunk. Then, if you go to a show where the barf bottle is a problem, remove it, connect the overflow hose, change to the correct open system radiator cap and no one will ever know the barf bottle was there. For a barf bottle to work correctly you do need to use a modern radiator cap that is designed for a closed cooling system so the radiator can suck the extra coolant back in after it cools down. After all, putting something as easy to remove as a barf bottle on old cars that we drive routinely isn't that big of an inconvenience. Even on a full show car it only takes about 5 minutes to remove. And, it's environmentally responsible. Antifreeze is poisonous to animals and humans when only small amounts are ingested.
  2. Contact Bruce Andren President of the Buick Compact Club. He's owned one of the aluminum V-8's since new and knows a great deal about their peculiarities. His email should be compactbc@iols.net. If that doesn't work, go to www.buickclub.org and post the question on the BCA Discussion Forum. Bruce checks the BCA forum fairly frequently but may not check the AACA forum.
  3. Earl, What's allowed by the EPA in lacquer today, might not be allowed tomorrow. Also, depending on the color, it may not be possible to mix the color you want in lacquer. I'd go with base coat/clear coat, especially if you're looking at a metallic color. What color were you planning on? Note to Pierce 66. Acrylic Lacquer or Lucite was used for only 5 colors on 1958 Buicks and a "few" 57's-like the 57 Pontiac Bonneville. The cars with Lucite had special glove box decals denoting the special paint. There were also quite a few service BUICK service bulletins emphasizing that the older DUCO and newer LUCITE finishes were not compatible. Al
  4. If anyone has a 62 Color Trim book there should be either a drawing or a data chart that will indicate the color of the major interior components for each color of interior. All of the Color/Trim books I have do so but I don't have one for a 62.
  5. Sometimes it had to do with rules and regulations concerning reflectivity. That's why white interiors usually have a black, gray or other color dashboard. In a convertible the visors are very visible to oncoming traffic with the top down since they stick up above the windshield header. That's probably why Buick made them black for this car.
  6. Pat, I?ve been reading the various comments on the driver?s class for a week or so and finally decided to throw in my two cents. I?m pretty sure I was on the board that approved the Driven/Driver?s class and I know that I strongly supported its creation and naming you as the person in charge. I was also under the impression that cars entered in the Driver?s class/Driven class would be eligible to receive the award even though some equipment would have been adapted to increase the drivability. I know that you want to make the rules as short, simple and straightforward as possible, but trying to document things like retrofitted dual master cylinder systems, auxiliary cooling fans, and so forth will be a nightmare on the judging field, especially given that this class could have more than a hundred entries in 2005. Looking at individual components really is too much like 400 point judging. And, it may result in a car being disqualified from this award when it might have received a GOLD or possibly even a SENIOR award in the 400 point system. Picture the ?perfect? restoration of a 39 Buick, except that it has an alternator, an A/C system and auxiliary cooling fan. Everything else is authentic and in as new condition. Without the judging manual in front of me, I?m guessing at the point deductions, but I believe this car could still qualify for a Gold in the 400 point system but IF the owner drove the car to the meet and decided they wanted the Driven Award recognition instead, he/she would be disqualified because of something like 12 points worth of deductions?? For an all or nothing award like the driven award, I think the philosophy requires that you look at the overall presentation of the vehicle to determine if it?s been modified to an extent that it should NOT receive the award. My understanding of the philosophy of the award when it was approved was that this was to recognize those Buicks that have been driven to the meet, entered in the Driven Class and which would range in condition from fully restored cars to cars that are fully presentable ( nice 20 footers ) but not necessarily restored with judged competition in mind. My understanding was also that modifications resulting in disqualification for this award would be major modifications that would clearly move the car from the stock presentation category to the modified/street rod/hot rod category. I also think that Keith Horsfall really has enough to do with getting the judging system for the Modified Division off the ground without hitting him with a Driver?s Award in that Division right off the bat. And, as someone on the forum said earlier, modified folks DRIVE their cars so a Modified Driven award might be redundant, or there could even be a point penalty for trailering a modified car in their system. Let?s see what they develop before adding to their task list. My understanding of the philosophy behind creating the Driver?s class/Driven class was to recognize those folks who have chosen to DRIVE their older Buicks to the meet rather than trailer them or drive modern cars, even though some of the cars will have had SOME equipment modified from the as built condition. My suggestion is that the criteria for denying the Driven Award to any Buick that is driven to the meet AND ENTERED in Driven class on the basis of modifications to the ?as built by BUICK? status should exhibit major mods along the lines of the following. The extent of the modifications should be such that returning the car to ?stock? status would be impossible or at least economically unfeasible. Note: These might also be used as guidelines for members wondering when their car should be entered in the modified class. Body? Philosophy-to receive the Driven Award, the cars body is structurally and dimensionally as the stylists/engineers at Buick intended. If body has been chopped, channeled, sectioned or otherwise structurally modified from the as built by BUICK configuration, it will be considered Modified to an extent that it should be disqualified from receiving the Driven Award. Addition of a roll cage would disqualify the car from receiving the Driven award. Addition of a 3 or 4 point safety harness would NOT disqualify a car from the Driven Award. Engine/driveline/chassis? Philosophy-- The engine is of the type appropriate to that year/era. In other words, a straight 8 car needs a straight 8 engine-but not necessarily from that year of manufacture. A nailhead era big car ( 53-66 ) should have a nailhead. Special/Skylarks from 61-67 could have had aluminum V-8, V-6, 300, 340 or nailhead after 65, depending on the individual year. Example?a 37 Buick running a 50 straight 8?give it the Driven Award. Even if its running a Dynaflow since Dynaflow was a part of the straight 8 era. A 38 Buick running a 455?disqualify it from the Driven award. The car is from the straight 8 era, the engine is NOT a straight 8. A 70 Skylark running a 455?gets the award. Car and engine are from the same era--it gets the award. If the drive line of the car is within the ?era? of the car with era?s considered--pre-30, straight 8, nailhead, 455, corporate stuff-- then the car gets the award. This philosophy would allow you to disqualify cars based on substantial power train modifications?open drive line prior to 60, 4 speed tranny prior to sometime in the 60?s, automatic overdrive tranny prior to late 70?s, but does permit additional cooling, 8 volt battery, alternator, A/C, plastic wiring instead of cotton/lacquer, modern or K and N style air filter. etc. Interior? Philosophy?the interior of the car is structurally of a type commonly available in that era. What does this mean? Construction?not material. Bucket seats were not available 1958 and earlier. After 1958, Buckets or bench. High Back buckets came along in the early/mid 70?s. Interior fabrics can be cloth, leather, vinyl etc. Color, stitching and so forth are not expected to be correct. Extra gauges, CB?s, speakers, tape/CD players/ modern radios and other comfort and convenience accessories, provided they are installed with reasonable workmanship will NOT disqualify the car from the Driven Award. Chassis? Philosophy?with the exception of wheels/tires/brakes?the major components of the chassis and suspension are as intended by Buick for that year car. Brakes?There is already a post on the DF documenting that OLDS offered dual master cylinder retrofit kit for 62-66 models based on info from a 1974 Olds parts book. Buick probably did the same, and since the 62 and 61 are not significantly different, this probably extends backwards for awhile. Did OLDS cut the year off at 62 because their kit couldn?t be used on earlier years or because 62 is 12 years before the date of the book and there was some policy about deleting information for cars over 12 years of age from current parts books? And, since disc brakes and dual masters both arrived at Buick in 1967 does the above retrofit information pertain to drum brakes or disc/drum conversions? If this documentation can be found it would be fantastic to include in the judging handbook for the 400 point system, but maybe for the Driven class we need to accept that updated brakes will happen and NOT disqualify the car from the Driven Award. Dual master cylinder conversion or power brake conversion in Driven class?grant the award. Front disc brakes?getting really close to the line?grant the award 4-wheel disc brakes and/or ABS?reserve judgement to see if this actually shows up on a large number 50?s and 60?s cars that are not already heavily modified in some other area. Wheels/tires?With the concerns over the use of radial tires on older wheels, and the desire of many folks who drive their cars long distances to use radials, you?re likely to see radial tires on Buick road wheels or other later model wheels with the correct hubcaps and even some Cragers or other aftermarket wheels. As long as the wheel diameter/tire size and whitewall width is reasonable for the era of the car?14/15 A body, 15 big car, 15/16 straight 8 big car?grant the award. The Driven Award and the Driven Class are something that has been needed by the BCA for a long time. I?m very glad that the class was approved and will be a feature of all future nationals. Like all innovations, there?s always some tweaking needed after the first time it happens. After all, the car on the Driven Award Medallion is a Buick Race car from early in Buick?s history. And, as Terry Dunham has told us many times, the Buick Racing Team Drove To WIN with cars that were not necessarily perfectly STOCK cars. Remember the race cars that somehow gained an underslung chassis in the rail cars on the way to the race. Buick?s purpose in racing was to get its cars and their performance out in front of the public. Win on Saturday, sell on Monday. An important goal of the Driver?s class, as I understood it, was to encourage people with presentable, for the most part stock appearing Buicks, allowing some deviations from authenticity, to display their cars on the show field and receive some recognition for choosing to DRIVE their older Buick to the National rather than not attending/flying or driving modern. Many of the cars in Driven class are the workhorses of our hobby. They are the tour cars, the nice weekend hobby cars that we all drive frequently and take the neighbors kid for a ride, or take to the local school for show and tell, or the local nursing home. They are the cars that show the world that BUICK has a long and proud history of building DRIVERS cars. The goal of this class is also to have some fun and also attract some folks who feel that the full frame off restorations and competitiveness in the 400 point system are just not for them at this time in their lives. Don?t turn it into a baby 400 point system or the place were ?old? restorations go after they can no longer compete in the 400 point system. It won?t hurt to be a little generous in forgiving minor updating in components and awarding those cars the Driven Award. It might even do some good and encourage that person in their 20?s or 30?s who has grandma?s, or Aunt Bea?s old Buick that they just love to get more involved in the hobby and bring the car to a National, even though over the years Aunt Bea owned it the Buick was repaired just enough to keep in from being an Archival Car but not enough to make it competitive in the world of 400 point judging. Let me add one last what if to this. Buick has a long history of providing handicap assist devices for customers needing them-dating back to at least World War II. I saw a few cars at Dallas with handicap placards-probably due to the graying of the BCA membership. I know that doctors can and sometimes do require things like power steering/brakes/A/C to allow a patient to resume driving. What would the decision be in Driven Class where a handicapped owner of say a 42 Buick had to equip the car with Power Steering and Dynaflow in order to be allowed to drive it. Using the philosophy that I?ve outlined above, it would get the Driven Award. From what I?ve read in other posts, that same car would NOT have received the Driven Award in Dallas because Dynaflow, power steering and power brakes are NOT period accessories for a 42. So, we only permit handicap assist devices "sometimes." Not a good rule. Now that we have 4 classes to enter cars at National Meets, there is some confusion in the club. Below are the 4 soundbites that I think of when someone asks me what class they should enter their car into. An ideal car that is destined to compete for the 400 point Awards has been RESTORED with the same care and attention to authenticity as one would use in restoring a Victorian house to its as built status. The owner understands that the car will be judged for condition, authenticity and workmanship with the standard being how that car would have appeared at the end of the assembly line on the day it was built. An ideal car that is destined to compete for the Archival Award has been COSMETICALLY UNTOUCHED in at least one major area: interior, exterior, engine or chassis since the day it left the assembly line. Repainting the car, replacing interior components, or detailing engine/chassis is likely to disqualify a car from receiving this award, especially if more than one of these has occurred. An ideal car that is destined to compete in the Driven Award has been REFURBISHED on some level but not with the attention to authenticity and correctness in all areas that would be appropriate for a car destined to compete in the 400 point system. It has also been driven to the meet and is displayed in keeping with the philosophy that it is presented as a stock or close to stock car. Minor components may be updated without disqualification. An ideal car that is destined to compete for the Modified Car Awards has been REMODELED to the owner?s personal taste in such a manner that the overall appearance and/or the running gear of the vehicle is no longer appropriate for the era of the vehicle. Such changes would be serious structural modifications to the body and/or updating the powertrain, chassis or interior components to components newer than the era of the car. These changes are effectively irreversible so that restoring the car to stock is not feasible. As some of you know, I have worked on a number of frame off restorations and have 2 BCA Gold/Senior cars. One of them has been driven everywhere since it's frame off restoration in 2001--Flint, San Diego, San Jose, Los Angeles and the BCA National in Dallas this year. The other gets trailered to distant meets. So, I own both trailered cars and driven cars. I still believe that we need the Driven Class in the BCA, but I hope Pat and his committee will consider the recommedations that I and others have made and NOT deny a participant in the Driven Class the Driven Award unless the car has very clearly crossed the line between being a "stock" presentation and being a "modified." Al Eichelberger BCA President 1996-1998 BCA Board member 1994-2000, 2002-2003
  7. On the other hand, a relative had a 62 Falcon Squire Wagon-white with wood trim, white bolsters, red inserts piped in silver mylar that looked really sharp. She drove it every day from new until 1969 in the rust belt of NE Ohio. Sold it to a private party in the neighborhood who bought it about 15 minutes after the for sale sign went up in 1969. The 62 had less rust on it than the new replacement 69 Torino Squire wagon did when the 69 wagon was replaced with a new 72 Squire. I was too young then to pay attention to the engine but I do recall that it had an automatic tranny and a manual choke. The car never let her, or the second owner, down due to mechanical failure, cold or whatever. That red and white interior was also very attractive--much more so than the monotone red interior in a neighbor's 63 Falcon Convertible. I also recall that the owner considered the 62 Falcon Squire her favorite car and would have traded her current new car even up for that car if it were offered to her in the same condition that she sold it in up until the early 80's. But then this was a car that was purchased new by that individual, driven almost exclusively by her on a daily basis through an approx 20 mile each way commute work to home with excellent maintenance-mechanical and cosmetic. Don't recall the mileage when sold but it was probably around 60000 to 80000 miles. Based on the two Falcons that I have known, my impression of them is different from Dave's, but then the cars I'm talking about were excellently cared for cars bought new by the owners that I knew. It's also funny how two different cars of exactly the same model can exhibit very different durability, build quality, longevity and so forth. Some cars off the line are just better built than others and if you got a good one, then you remember it positively and think about finding another. If you got a bad one, you can't understand why anyone would want one. That's part of what makes this hobby great--we each get to have our favorites--or at least dream about having them.
  8. Ask yourself, do you honestly believe that this dealer has the skills or desire to repair the car to your satisfaction? It sounds like you're going to be footing the bill, no matter who does the repair. If you're stuck paying for it, you might be much better off taking it to a different shop. The Pasadena Buick Show is Sunday. Not much work is going to happen on that car between Friday night and Sunday morning anyway. Find out the current bill you have incurred at this establishment and ask that all work be stopped until Monday afternoon or Tuesday morning, when you will either authorizet the repair or have the car transported elsewhere. Go to the Pasadena show and talk to lots of Buick owners from Southern Cal, especially those with 60's Specials and Skylarks. Ask them for shop recommendations. You'll probably get some strong opinions. Talk to a couple of the recommended shops Monday morning and decide which one is the best fit for you. Get some estimates from them based on the scope of the repairs noted as needed by the other shop. The dealer may be offering you a 'special' deal to use his shop. Find out if that 'special deal' is to your advantage or his. Yes, you'll have a tow bill on top of everything else. And, you'll have to pay off the current guy, and take another day off work and so on. It'll be one more hassle. But, although Buicks are very durable and very easy to work on for someone that understands them, they DO have some particular quirks that could be problematic if the current mechanic follows the "if it works on a Chevy, it'll work on a Buick" rule. Guess it boils down to the following. If the dealer is footing all or a significant part of the repair bill, I could probably live with his shop. If I'm paying the bill, I'll pick a shop that I either know and trust or one that has been recommended to me by a number of people who know the area/know the cars. GOOD LUCK! And, don't let this bad experience spoil you're enjoyment of the car when you get it back on the road. We've all been stuck by similar situations over the years. Best thing might be to find a mechanic YOU trust that will put the car back on the road safely and running well the first time.
  9. Well, folks it isn't the first time GM and Ford have shared parts. One of the manual trannys used in sixties GTO's is actually a FORD unit. And, we all remember the time when Lincoln bought Hydramatics from GM in the early 50's. Lincoln even advertised the Hydramatic in their cars, but I don't remember Pontiac telling the world about their Ford tranny.
  10. Here's a thought. Call the Sloan Museum in Flint, Michigan and see about donating the car to their Buick Gallery. They have a very active group of volunteers that restores cars for display. That way you get a nice tax deduction, which depending on your tax status, actually benefit you more than the $$. I don't know if the AACA Museum is set up to take project cars, but it might be worth checking that out as well. Also, the Western Reserve/Crawford/Thompson Auto Museum in Cleveland OH has a group of volunteers that restores cars for its collection as well. If transportation is an issue, maybe it would be worth checking out the local high school vocational programs or community college auto body/auto mechanics program. This could be a nice tax deduction as well and give them a good, and unusual, project. Where I live, the high schools with auto mechanics classes have drag race clubs. Kids who keep their grades up, stay out of trouble, etc, work to raise money for the school project car and then get to take the car down the track. Who knows, if the museums really don't want/can't use it, you might just get some young people interested in this era of the hobby and get yourself a tax deduction as a bonus.
  11. The Chevelle had either a wheel cylinder problem or a brake hose problem. Can't remember which. Weather was great 80's and up during the day with cool nights. However, Thursday night and Friday did have some rain. Lots of nice cars, including a beautiful 37 Buick Limited with Side Mounts! And a 40 Century convertible sedan. Neither of which are mine
  12. See photos here, thanks to Roy Ireland. http://public.fotki.com/rlireland/founders_tour_2004/
  13. To accommodate those who have recently expressed serious interest in attending the 2004 Founders Tour, we are going to extend the registration deadline a few more days. Please contact AACA Headquarters and email Tour Registration Chairman Bob Chesnutt, Bobandhelen@aol.com ASAP to make arrangements for a late registration. We would like to have as many participants as possible. We do have to begin releasing unused hotel rooms very soon, so if you are seriously interested in attending, please get in touch with us immediately. We currently have around 65 registrants. We would really like to break 75.
  14. To accommodate those who have recently expressed serious interest in attending the 2004 Founders Tour, we are going to extend the registration deadline a few more days. Please contact AACA Headquarters and Tour Registration Chairman Bob Chesnutt Bobandhelen@aol.com ASAP to make arrangements for a late registration. We would like to have as many participants as possible. We do have to begin releasing unused hotel rooms very soon, so if you are seriously interested in attending, please get in touch with us immediately. We currently have around 65 registrants. We would really like to break 75.
  15. Check out the itinerary for the 2004 AACA Founders Tour at AACA Founders Tour 2004 Visit Tucson, Pinetop, Winslow, Flagstaff, Sedona and Scottsdale. Contact AACA Headquarters to optain a registration packet soon. Registration closes February 24, 2004. Should be a fun tour visiting many special sites in Arizona with a group of AACA folks. There are approximately 60 cars registered so far. There's room for 120 cars. Come on folks, it's pretty unusual for a major tour to come to Arizona, so let's fill it up!
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