29 Chandler

Are you able to share the VIN number on the car if it still has one?

Heard back from Ramsey Chains this morning, unfortunately my chains are non-standard. Might be something unique to the chains on 1913-1915 Chandlers as the Whitney catalog lists the same chain from 1916-1922, which I was hoping was just a typo. So now I am in the process of removing all six sprockets so they can be sent off to Ramsey. They'll machine a set of their sprockets to match the hubs on mine and if there is anything else custom that might need to be done.

Here's a 398 mile 1910 EMF just driven home from the factory.

Charles you are a lucky man! You have a wonderful car, live in an amazing part of our state, and you got to talk with one of the great ambassadors of our hobby. Jay generally make san appearance at one of our car club events every year and is always so gracious.

Spoke with a couple of people at Ramsey today. I am sending the chains to them to be measured and see if the fit properly on a known 60 degree sprocket. It seems there is yet another specification about these chains I was not familiar with. The chains are most likely the standard 60 degree chains, but they could also be a 75 degree chain. There are generally two options to figure this out, one is to take the chain apart and the other is to place it on a known sprocket. Since there is still a chance I need to reuse on original chains taking them apart was not really a good option. More to come next week...

While Egge was very helpful and prompt with their service they did not have stock to supply the chains. They did recommend we contact Ramsey Products for the chains. I did a seperate search for Coventry Chains and there is a place in England that still provides support to vintage cars. They use Ramsey as well, so I have an email out to them. From the details on their website I am encouraged they have the stock and the details to provide me with an exact replacement for my original chains, pretty incredible after 109 years! Ramsey Silent Chains

Went to Egge today, as I expected they did not have chains in stock for this engine. They did take my (three) chains to see if they have the material in stock to make new ones. Should know in a few days. Will not know pricing until I find out if they can make them. If they can be made and anyone else needs a set let me know and we can get them made at the same time while they have a set to measure from.

Well I tried. While I could sometimes seal up one small hole the process of heating the epoxy would create another spot to seal around the core. I used this on my 2008 truck with a modern aluminum radiator I am happy with how easy the epoxy was to work with and has held up. On a 110 year old core that has seen some repairs in the past this did not do the job. At least I tried, I knew what the correct answer was all along but now it means the car will be parked for much of the spring and summer.

I have just measured again, both the Coventry and the Whitney chains, the Coventry chains are standard 3/8" pitch and 1/2" pitch as the specifications show. The Whitney chains measure out just larger than 3/8" strangely. It seems the teeth on these chains do not come together properly, or at least the same as my original chains. So if I have this right the measurements for the three chains should be as follows: 1913-1922 Chandler Magneto-Water Pump Chain 26 1/8" long 1 1/4" nominal width 3/8" pitch 1913-1922 Chandler Generator Chain 21 7/16" long 1 1/4" nominal width 3/8" pitch 1913-1922 Chandler Camshaft Chain 25 1/4" long 1 1/2" nominal width 1/2" pitch

I am baffled at this point, but I am determined to find the answers. The next person replacing timing chains on a 1913-1922 Chandler will have a much easier job at it than I 😃

@intimeold I am learning about "pitch" as it relates to chains and sprockets. What I am not understanding at this point is why this Whitney chain which I expect is 3/8" as specified in their brochure does not mate up to my sprocket. Were there other pitch dimensions available in 1914? My original sprockets are marked Coventry so I am pretty confident they have never been off the engine. One of them is even marked 3/14, which I interrupt to be March of 1914. There must be a method to measure pitch of the sprockets, more research...

Yesterday I pulled all three timing chains off. The longest chain that drives the magneto has 1.25" of vertical play, the other two chains which are shorter has 0.75" of vertical play. From what I have found so far 1/2 to 5/8" is considered accepatble. Once I got the two smaller chains to the workbench I was able to measure how much play there is on their length spread out flat. I was able to measure 1/8" difference from fully compressed to fully stretched. I have not seen a spec on what is normal, but I assume 1/8" is not acceptable. As I continue to try and educate myself about these silent chains I found a Whitney Silent Chains brochure from 1926. This brochure includes a listing for all three of my chains, well sort of. In my previous post I shared a page from the 1930 Pirate's Part catalogue that was marketed to Chandler owners after the factory closed down. I assume this outfit bought a large quantity of factory parts and were now trying to unload them to the owners of these now discontinued models. Oh if I could only go back in time! What is so helpful now is the pictures and listing that show the interchangeability of parts from one year to the next. This catalog lists these chains as being interchangeable for Chandler cars from 1914-1922. I am not clear why 1913 was left off as from what I understand the 550 or so cars built in 1913 had the same engines as 1914. 1923 was the year the Pikes Peak motor was introduced. Now the Whitney brochure lists the years 1916-1922 for their chains. Why these dates do not line up I am unclear. Recently I acquired a pair of Whitney silent chains that look nearly identical to my original Coventry silent chains. After measuring closely to see where to remove some extra links in the Whitney chains I was expecting to be able to install them on my car. Lining them up side by side on the workbench, they are identical in height and width. But what struck me was that the number of links is not the same for the length of each chain. I was expecting to match up the number of links for the first chain (33) and then count that off on the new chain and see that the new chain would be just slightly shorter than my original stretched chain. This method highlighted my first red flag. Down the length of the chain the links progressively get further out of sync. I expected a little bit of variance between the old and new chains, but not a whole link or two. Ok I am clearly not ready to make any cuts to the new chain. Next I took the new chain and draped it over the sprockets to ensure it would mesh properly. This was the second red flag. I could not get the chain to mesh smoothly around the sprocket. The Whitney brochure lists a pitch of 3/8" which seems to be a common size for the smaller chains. The main chain for the camshaft should be 1/2" per the brochure. Next step is to drive down to Egge Machine Company and see what they have. Their website lists a whole series of chains but no pictures or specifications. I have scanned the Whitney brochure if there's interest I'll post it on the forum as a reference for others.

Chains for sale in 1930 😃

Here's a short video of the chains in action. The noise you are hearing is the air escaping the cylinders via the individual petcocks and the knocking noise is me on the hand crank. 1914 Chandler Timing Chains in motion

I do not see any evidence that the chains were hitting the block or the timing chain cover. I have the two smaller chains on the way but I'll need to source the larger chain that drives the cam. The previous owner left me some hand written notes about the chain that are a little hard to read: 1 1/2 " wide 25 connector links 1/2" thick 7/8" center chain 6 double links 5 double 2 single links I have never measured a timing chain so some of his notes are going to take a bit more research to understand. If anyone knows where I can find such a chain please let me know.

Make sure every nut, bolt, and cotter pin are in place! I got the timing chain cover off today and as I knew the timing chains are loose. The longest one that drives the water pump and magneto is the worse. The gear can be turned 1/4" by hand. What really surprised me is that the cotter pin or "s" shaped wire that holds the pin in on the master link was missing. The chain driving the generator still has its "s" wire on the master link. Here are a few pictures of today's progress.

Someone must have been drinking a crown royal in the front row 😀

Hi Matt I agree the correct way to fix the issue is a new core. The epoxy I am looking at applies externaly to the outside of the core directly to to the leak. This is not bars leak or something that we pour into the radiator and hope it finds its way to the hole. My main concern is that I have not yet found anyone with experience using this product on a brass radiator just aluminum so far and with good long lasting results for a modern core. My hope is that this is also an option to use on the older cores.

Anyone have any experience with Stic-Tite radiator repair epoxy? I had a few small pin hole leaks on the 1.5 year old aluminum radiator in my truck. With the lack of radiator repair shops anywhere near me I started looking for alternatives and found this product. It was remarkably easy to use and sealed quickly. Time will tell how long it lasts. I am interested to know if I can use it on my 1914 brass radiator? I have not found any information on the Internet about using it on anything other than aluminum or plastic. Anyone have a experience to share with this product? I know the best and longest lasting fix is to take the whole radiator to a place like Brass Works where the whole radiator is repaired properly. But as a temporary fix interested to see if this is an option.

I really hope this is the case as it will be easy to diagnose and fix.

I’ll look around for any possible issue when I start opening it up. thanks

Update: I have run all over the engine with my mechanics stethoscope to try and isolate the noise. Still not able to pin point the noise. I've now got a couple of timing chains on the way thanks to Eric that we believe will allow me to replace the two smaller chains for the water pump/magneto shaft and the other for the generator/starter shaft. These are the two longest chains of the three with the most slack. The noise I am hearing seems to be most notable near the front of the engine where the chains are. I'll probably drop the oil pan at the same time and check for any play on the rods. While I will still need to replace my clutch, I am now confident the noise is from the engine.

The hardware appears to be brass including the screws. There are traces of nickel plating. Feels like quality, heavy glass. Free to a good home for the price of shipping. Part is located in Southern California

My biggest fear is the engine internals at this point. Plan to do some more checking this weekend.

Thank you They are not far from me