avantey

I was just given this magazine to peruse and once again it struck me how often what is exclaimed as "new" in our era has probably been driven around the block before. This magazine is new to me, a December 1912 issue of 'Motor Field' and covers automobilist travel, industry news, and trends. There is also a lot of nice advertising and it is all in very good readable shape. The cover ad is what I referred to with the title, I have not heard of a Fritchle automobile before. Here they are advertising a 100 mile electric vehicle, which I assume means on one charge, precisely 100 years ago. And currently Chevrolet is very proud of the Volt and it's technology that delivers a 40 mile ride on a single charge. What is in the fine print you may not be able to read at the bottom is a statement that Mr. Fritchle made his first electric car eight years before in 1908! Does anyone know more of this company from Denver and technology they used?

I may not have been clear on my efforts with this heating problem. Since I am having the engine rebuilt I do not want a continued overheating problem so I am trying to preemptively hit all the causes. Here is where things stand: The block was clean enough my builder decided not boil it out. Still not sure about not cleaning it out now, especially the head, but I trust him and his experience. Part of this is because when I got the car I removed the side water jacket cover. I found the distribution plate behind it had dissolved and packed tightly around the last two cylinders. I cleaned all of this area out, remade the plate in SST per Hupp factory print and reassembled. I think this is the Hupp version of a water tube Curti is talking about. I also took out the radiator and had it checked, repaired and cleaned at that time. I have now had it at a shop this week who checked it again. They flushed it and steamed it, can't boil it anymore with EPA, etc., and said the flow is now way better than at first. However I do have a small leak issue where the honeycomb core meets the top tank. They could not get to it to repair it so I had a friend who is a good restorer look at it too. He said I was better off trying a sealant than trying to get heat in where the leak is as it would probably cause more problems rather fix things. Another friend has offered a radiator epoxy he got in St. Louis during the Great Race. It is an external application but it helped his race car a lot and it was running very high temps without leaks the rest of the race. I may look at this more. The pump is just another possible cause I am checking out. My thinking is that even with other things working well if the coolant can't move thru fast enough it will still overheat. So I want to be sure I understand the possible issues with the pump such as bypass, inefficiency, cavitation, etc. I know my measures were approximate due to crude capabilities but the good part was I left half the gasket there when I measured thinking about that. The other half went with the removed cover but the whole gasket was only .010-.020 thick I bet. The last part of the system I can think of is the lack of a thermostat and I have not brought that up here at all. Guess I have now though. With no thermostat the coolant should circulate faster which mean less time in front of the radiator correct? This would mean higher water temps in the return flow to the block. How much hotter and how bad an effect would this have? Again I am trying to be be proactive and protect my new engine. So all of this help here has been great and taught me a lot that I appreciate. I've said it before- the collective knowledge here is amazing and since I am very firm in my restoration vs modification desires I usually get some needed advice here. A lot of other folks tell me to change things but I like to try to keep my cars original so it helps to understand the theory too. Thank you to all-

OK, haven't had a chance to respond here so here we go! Graham Man- I can't tell if the belt was slipping as the engine is out. When driving it last fall the generator (on the same belt) was working fine with steady output but that is the best gauge I can give you. 37RdmrC- I will try to find an old time pump guy in the area but I do not know of any right off. OD- your numbers are frightening! I have a scrap pump if you are correct but it could go a long ways to explain the overheating gradually getting worse with driving. Harry J- I can't check the timing as the engine is out for rebuild. Running last fall it seemed fine. Started right up, ran right along at 50mph with no breakup, loss of power on hills and idled well. I used to have tons of overheat problems on my Model A Ford and finally understood it was almost always a timing issue. Learned the quirk to timing that car and it is now a dream to drive, losing maybe a pint of water in 400 miles week of touring. And most of that is from the water pump packing nut dripping if I do not see it. When I put this Hupp back together setting the timing will be a priority and my first time doing a dual point setup. I should have the radiator test results today and have it back tomorrow so stay tuned. They only steam them out now with soap injected in the process. Not sure if I like that, rather they boiled it, but I guess that is not EPA/NYSDEC friendly anymore. They also only use a 70/30 solder today at best. He says most of the time on newer stuff it is 60/40 but the low lead solder soes not flow well enough for their liking. The original solder was probably 90/10, I have a little bit left on one roll. Thanks everyone for all the help. I learn a lot here, just wish I knew enough to help others but the knowledge base here is way above my contribution level!

I took some time yesterday and reopened the fuel pump after these conversations. The shaft feels good when turning by hand with no visible diametral play or end play. I used my measuring method with a straightedge and verniers to measure the gap from the impeller back to the rear cover. Depending on rotation of the impeller, it has small pits and any play I was getting .108-.111 clearance. Is that too much gap? The depth of the impeller in the housing is set by the cross pinned pulley on the front so I do not know how to change this clearance if it is too big. With the pictures below: This shows how I crudely measured the clearance. The straightedge replicates the rear cover and the measure minus the SE thickness is the gap. Not real accurate (and even harder trying to one hand it with for the camera!) but it gives some idea of what I am asking about. Picture #3 shows the flat rear cover removed. The last pic shows the pump from the front with the large packing screw at the top. I may try the putty method too, that is basically plastiguage on growth hormones! Thank you, Bill

Once again you all are proving how good the help is here. Like Graham Man the old timer who did this radiator for me had been in business all of 60 years and this was actually a job the new shop owner called him back in for, since he was new enough to be unsure with it. Trimacar- It is painted but I believe it is the old thin style black. It has that sheen to it and is not at all thick on the fins, weldmarks on the tank are easily visible, etc. I am questioning my analysis/solution with the packing. I think I will tear it down again since your comment makes sense. The packing is "packed" via a large screw from the top of the unit- you remove it, put in graphite string or whatever, and screw the screw in to push the material around the shaft. I think if you put in enough the packing ends up acting as a poor bearing and the shaft would feel more true (at least at first). Or the shaft is loaded to the side away from the screw and feels better. Like I said- I am going to tear it down again after all this help and look more closely. FirstBorn- Like you I am a little suspicious of the term used- "it flowed good" can cover a range of opinion with an old timer's experience. I found out today there is a radiator shop in Rochester that can flow test, etc. and will probably end up there for better testing. OwenDyneto- This housing is a two piece with a flat backing plate you remove to rebuild the unit. How can I measure the impeller to plate distance with it opened up? I do not have surface plates, height indicators, etc. to work with. With the back cover off I suppose I could use a straightedge across the back face of the front half and my verniers in depth mode to get fairly close but would that be close enough? Again, thanks to everyone for the help! It has given me a lot more to work with and think about.

Please teach me a little more, this time on water pumps. I want to test the pump on the '31 Hupp to see if that is part of the overheating problem. How are pumps specified? By volume (gpm) and rate (@rpm) or just by one of these? Where can I find that spec- a period MoToRs or Chilton manual? How can I bench test when I know the spec? The car runs hot, overheated within fifty miles every ride. The engine rebuilder says the block and head are so clean he did not boil it out. When I got the car I had an old time radiator shop clean it and repair some leaks he found. He said it flowed 'good' but never did a measure. The water pump did have significant play in the shaft from lack of packing (I fixed that early on) but very little shaft end play. When I opened up the pump housing it was not worn excessively but I wondered if the flow was bypassing the impeller behind it due to the play. Really not sure where to look but the engine is back end of January. I want to reinstall it for a late spring tour so I need to fix the hot problem. If the block is good, the radiator is good I am not sure what else is left besides the pump. Thanks for any help, the knowledge here is amazing. That is why I keep asking-

Chris- Thank you for a new inspiration! I had forgot this is the 50th for our Avanti's. I almost got mine back on the road last year but that stalled when my friend took ill again. I talked to him last week, he is having more trouble from his chemo but she will get out of his barn this year. After all how many people will have a fifty and one hundred year old Studebaker to play with? A once in a lifetime chance for us to drive and display two points in Stude history at a milestone point. About five years ago I considered starting a frame-off on the Avanti to be done for this birthday year. Given my track record it would still be a pile of parts! Happy New Year,

All right , now I need more help. I found the filter I have, it looks like the top pics here for shape/size. However it is flow thru with threaded fittings each end. It also has no label left to get size but I sort of remember it is a PUR 1/2 ? The owners handbook I have says the original equipment filter is by the Handy Co. but I have never heard of them. Also the Lester Handbook says it is a Purolator but doesn't give the size. I do not know the fitting size but I think it is 3/8 or 1/2 NPT(?) both ends. Does anyone have an application book for Purolator 1931 vintage. What does it list for a Hupp Model L or Century 8 filter? Thank you for the help,

Tim and Dennis- Thank you for the contact info. I just talked to Mr. Ripley and I think we will work it out. I have to do some research on the size and find the old filter I misplaced after Hershey but we are on our way! Turns out they live about 50 miles from me so I could even pick it up! Thanks again for the help!

On related note- at Hershey 2011 I met a vendor who took these flow thru cases and made them a spin-off modern filter on the inside. Since the 1/2 is hard to find , especially in good usable and/or show shape, this looked like a great idea. They alao did larger sizes (PUR1 or2?) this way also. Unfortunately they were not at Hershey 2012 and I would like to find them now. They were on a spot in approximately row OA10-20, first row in the Orange field, backed up to the flowered divider between Green and Orange near the arena end. Does anyone know who they were and how to contact them? Thanks,

Well it has been a while since I updated this and a lot has happened. While walking at Hershey Troy called from the Hupp Factory ( I had called him before this) and sent me pistons in .025 over and valves he had found. Turns out he sent five pistons of same size and one larger as he thought I had a six cylinder car. Yet he sent eight of each valve he found by PN. He has since shipped three more pistons to make a matched set of eight, should get them soon. I now own two sets of valves when I spent all summer looking for any valve!! We are going to insert the guides and after clean up the camshaft bearings are OK to use, marginal but within tolerance at about .004-.005" clearance. New ones should be about .003 I guess. HW- I had talked to Northwestern on all my parts and struck out with them in the summer.

Bud- Thank you for the info. My friend who has the Davis monitors this site a bit and I will tell him to make sure and read your post. He has no info on his engine so this is a lot of help. Maybe he wil have followups now that I got a response. Thanks,

Has anyone heard of this engine? It is in a 1926 Davis or Gray (canadian Davis) and is a small six of unknown size.

Curt- I believe the polish mentioned is Simichrome, not Semichrome. Our engineering prototyping shop used it regularly to make steel and aluminum parts simulate chrome finishes and reflectors without the expense. I do not think there is anything wrong with original paint showing it's age- patina is a great thing and it's only original paint once as a reference source for others.

15sd- thanks for the pic! Now I have an idea of what to look for. My car had a smaller wound bulb horn mounted to the middle of the 'door panel'. Sampson- All my lights are Solar brand including the cowls. Thank you-

What would be the correct horn and placement on a 1912 Overland model 59T? It came with a bulb type horn screwed to the body next to the driver (RH drive) but I do think it is correct. Want to do some shopping at Hershey next week..... Thanks,

Last year at Hershey I came across a guy who makes a spin off filter inside a canister for the PUR 1/2 filter like you have. He was alonng the edge where the orange field met the green field not far from the arena. It looks like an old filter if you paint it orange but can be changed due to a modern filter hidden inside. I am having the engine rebuilt on my '31 L and getting one this year if I can find the guy again. They were about $100 I think but I like the authentic look rather than cob on a modern aluminum mount of some sort. On the straight 8 L it mounts horizontally along the water jacket cover with special brackets and has 1/2" pipe threads on both ends. There is also a version (PUR 1?) that has smaller fittings on the ends.

I am still in need of valves and guides. Any help or new leads are GREATLY appreciated. They gotta be out there somewhere..... Thanks,

Thanks Bhigdog, I know it is the best answer but I was trying to not restore the entire car and this would tear into the dash and the dominoes continue to fall......... She is a nice old girl in very good shape with a great patina. Had a very tired engine to start this project but I do not intend to fully restore her. However I may end up going the remove/bead blast/refinish path here, it is a shame the rest of the engine compartment will look so nice and then these conduits hanging there.

As I progress on the Hupp engine project I have a new question. I have a number of control cables coming thru the firewall (spark. choke, etc.) that are all wire clad in conduit type metal cover. I have been cleaning them with steel wool and a SST toothbrush but the results are not very satisfactory. There is still rust in the grooves in the conduit I cannot get to. Short of removing them and glass bead blasting them does anyone have any other ideas for getting them looking good? With the newly painted firewall they look kind of shabby and I have the time to do these details now. Thanks,

Yesterday a friend and I removed the front clip from the 31 Hupp that has the engine out for rebuild. I wanted to clean and paint the frame and firewall while it was out. So today I did just that! It got a dusting of epoxy primer and a new topcoat of black enamel. My pro body man friend said the epoxy would help the new paint stick and last a lot longer. Now, if I hadn't used that new small gun I would not have the runs on the firewall to fix...... picture is yesterday after degrease.

As the valve search continues I have a question. I as told only Hupp used a threaded end on the valve for adjustments. If true this would make interchange pretty much a lost cause and theywould be them much harder to find. Is there a way to verify this as fact? Still looking for new leads and thanks for the help!

Dave- I just talked to Mr. Harris and he may be able to help out. Might have some and some to rework to fit. I'll keep you informed. Thank you-

Dave- thank you for a new lead! I will call him today. Roy- we are putting in new guides but the shop says he can turn down a valve stem or bore out/ream a guide to size. Never mentions going smaller. I also was told that in the 28-29 cars there were a lot of bent valves in the era. The assumption is they were shortened from 7 1/2 to 6 5/8 and thickened from .326 to .341 dia to help this condition by 1931 engines. I do have access to a Stutz valve that is similar to mine but has a .378 stem to turn down and thread. Thank you-

I am rebuilding the engine for my '31 Hupp model L and I need valves. The exhaust are not salvageable and the intakes are questionable. All leads I have gotten have dead ended so far. Here are the measures if anyone can help: Intake; 1 7/16 HEAD DIA, .341 STEM dia, 6 5/8 OAL with a threaded stem Exhaust: 1 11/32 head dia, .341 stem dia, 6 5/8 OAL with threaded stem I believe they are unique to this engine, I know the 28-29 Hupp valves do not work (,326 stem). Any leads on these valves or another valve I can modify to these specs would really be appreciated. Otherwise I am looking at expensive custom made work. The threaded end can be cut as can the seat bevel Thank you,