Shawn Miller

Buicksplus, thanks for your kind words i will take them as non sarcastic! At times I agree with you as far as era cars go that are close to being full classics but aren't for whatever reason. Not being an expert on 41 cadillacs (I just got mine 2 months ago -give me time), I was not real certain what the big difference was between the 61 and 62 series when seeing them next to each other at a motor muster we went to 2 weeks ago. If we didnt have these things to discuss intelligently where would we be? It sounds like you are a real active contributory guy, so here's hoping you get another car that you will feel comfortable participating in CCCA events with. I for one would love to see your laSalles at a regional event, or even in the parking lot at a grand classic. I usually spend lots of time in the parking lot of every event i go to. Many members drive other special interest cars at times to such events. Heck many even come in modern cars! I used to feel as you do, and didnt participate much until I got a Full Classic, and boy do I regret that. I missed getting to know some real great people, that i only hear stories about now, for obvious reasons. One great thing about our national club you hit on the head...we have excellent publications. Thanks really for your thoughtful and challenging posts. we need these discussions in this forum. Thats the great thing about the internet. Who knows maybe we will meet someday at hershey or something and have some common ground already established via this forum. Shawn Miller Asst Director Indiana Region

Buicksplus, Sorry to hear you are in a dead region. As a young member of an extremely active region, luckily I don't have the same problem as you. In fact, i have a tuff time keeping up with everything the older folks want to do in my region since I am still actively involved in my career and family life, and most of them are retired. HA! As the editor, I frequently have to expand our monthly newsletter from 8 to 12 pages due to all the stuff being covered and the numerous contributions. I do live in Indiana, sort of the "fertile cresent" of the auto world prior to WW2, though, so there is always something auto related happening here. Rather than expand the list of cars we accept, why not take the bull by the horns and volunteer to get on the board, specifically the activities committee, and get the ball rolling again. While the older members in your region may have lost the spark to organize events, I bet they will attend them if someone else does the groundwork. A region without events and newsletters definitely needs fixing. you wont be able to retain new members without these 2 key ingredients. I like to drive my cars alot and have been known to take them to cruise ins and other grass roots car shows, which has also resulted in new younger members joining our region. Try driving a Cord to a hot rod show, it becomes the center of attention real fast. The torch is being passed to our generation here. If we don't step up the club will falter. The only reason the club is as strong as it is, is because lots of dedicated and energetic guys worked hard in the 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's. etc. Now it is our turn to put some time in. just a few thoughts. Shawn miller Asst Director/Editor Indiana Region

Your right Eddie, often when a supercharger has been fitted to a nonsupercharged car the whole engine has been replaced. If not there may be some problems down the road.<P>Of course you could always remove that blower and sell it to someone else! HA! the going rate is about 10 grand I beleive!<P>Personally I like the cars without the outside pipes better, from an esthetic point of view I guess.<P>Shawn

eddie,<P>Unsure if it is full or not but there is another CARavan yet this year sponsored by the Michigan Region through Ontario in September.<P>Since the kids will be in school, the only way I will be going is if I can coerce a friend to go and the wife to not kill me for doing so. The kids would really like it though and I know I would feel bad for not having them with me so i will probably just wait until next summer as well. <P>I wouldnt worry about having a Cord that wasnt originally supercharged that had been converted. I think the factory even did this for customers during 1937. the numbers matching thing doesn't matter much on ACD cars since they didnt match when they left the factory! HA! Cords are really great cars. i sold mine, but will definately get another one sooner rather than later. there is just nothing else like driving an 810-812 cord. i miss it terribly.<P>The Auburn 12 is one of my top ten "gotta get one" cars. The motor is superior I think to most other engines of the era. It really is well designed. Lycoming produced some pretty good motors. I beleive the lycoming v12 was produced well into the 50's for use in marine and fire engine applications.<P>shawn

There has been some discusion on other threads about the costs of families attending events, and other clubs who have junior memberships.<P>It was mentioned that if someone stepped up to the plate and volunteered to help get this sort of thing moving, it may have more chance for success.<P>Consider me a volunteer for such an activity.<P>I think our CCCA members children will not be of the sort to "run around wild" as someone feared. Having kids at our events will not diminish them in any way. <P>Who's with me? <P>Shawn Miller<BR>Asst Director/Editor<BR>Indiana Region<p>[ 07-21-2002: Message edited by: Shawn Miller ]

From what i understand cars were regularly rebodied during the classic era as the needs or tastes of their owners changed. <P>We have a class for modified classics and to qualify I think that the new body has to has to be correct in every manner and even be of a design that had been executed during the classic era, sooo...<P>whats the big deal? it happens. cars get rebodied. There are probably a good many chassis floating around that have lost thier bodies for whatever reason. i have heard there is even class for bare chassis at pebble this year. <P>Who would expect an owner to build a new sedan body for such a chassis when it would be much more expensive, than say a roadster body, when the finished product is only worth half as much, at best.<P>Interestingly, I am faced with such a dilemma, and will probably be the only fool who goes ahead and builds the sedan body! LOL. <P>As long as the owner is being honest, who really cares?<P>Shawn Miller<BR>Indiana Region

wow! lots has happened here over the weekend, which I spent driving my 41 caddy with my family on an Indiana region tour along the Ohio River. Since I have only had it a month, this 600 mile drive was the first time the whole family spent any quality time with it. the car performed flawlessly even in the 95 degree heat. gee, i really like this car!<P>we had a wonderful time and the event wasn't too pricey to bring a family of 5 on since we here in Indiana are trying to open things up a bit, and didnt charge for kids. but alas i was the only one who took advantage of this. <P>OK I cant remember who said what here but here are my thoughts on these variuos subjects.<P>yes packards are more elegant than auburns generally speaking (duh). probably of a more stout build level too. I still prefer auburns and ACD cars generally. I am from Indiana, (speed matters more in indy than elegance)what do you expect! HA! One thing i will say about Auburns is that they must have been a hell of a deal in their day. What EL Cord delivered for the price was way beyond what the price reflected. This probably because they were more "assembled" than "hand built". this seems to be the biggest rub on Auburns is that they only cost 1200 bucks or so when new. <P>Chucks history of the Central Body works is pretty accurate. Parts of the building still stand. Connersville is very proud of <BR>the fact that Cords and Auburns were built there. Some Auburn bodies were also built at the Limosine Body Company in Kalamazoo, which i think was also under the umbrella of the Cord empire.<P>These were effectively factory bodied cars, although I guess one offs were made in some cases since they would make whatever you wanted if you were a willing buyer in those dark economic days of the early 30's.<P><BR>shawn

It is unfortunate that we live in such a litigious society that getting a trademark has now become an extremely expensive ordeal, and one that is fraught with uncertainty. I would not blame the BOD for this, but rather the attorneys who evidently didnt prepare the BOD for what the costs would be, and the likelihood of its approval.<P>I applaud them for cutting their losses and moving on.<P>Having been through this myself getting it is only the beginning, the real costs lie in enforcing it once you have it! HA!<P>As for lowering the costs of family attendace i agree that this needs to be addressed if one of our goals is to increase the number of members/participants in the under 50 crowd. <P>I still think that the club isnt broke and doesnt need fixed generally speaking.<P>Finally I agree with one thing Peter said, and that is that we should try at all times to just have fun, since this is a hobby afterall, and life is too short for hobbies that aren't fun. This is especially true of this forum!<P>Shawn Miller<BR>Indiana Region

Peter,<P>I drink expensive beers like Moosehead and Heinekin. that was the easiest bet ever! HA!<BR>I now know to take most of what you say as tongue in cheek. <P>Bill,<P>The Milestone Car Society was kind of based here in Indy although, there seems to be a few other factions that existed elsewhere. their list of cars was pretty good although it was somewhat exclusionary, for instance the MGA twincam was accepted but other MGA's weren't. But they you could apply to get a model or car approved just like you can in CCCA.<P>They probably did fail due to lack of ever getting a network of chapters established, or lack of regular publications. The point I am trying to make is that accepting post war cars in and of itself wont really change things. I think these cars are very different than full classics and should have a separate club like milestone. <P>Someone needs to start a club like this. I certainly don't have the time, although most of my collection fits more into this catagory than pre war.<P>Glad to see we are being civil here, finally.<P>Chuck,<P>Thanks for posting that list. It was most informative, and very helpful for this thread I think.<P>Shawn

Peter,<P>The light speed at which you responded amazes me. Are you really just constantly trolling these boards? Do you have a real job? Oh yeah, as old as you are, you must be retired, and living in the middle of a desert, there probably isnt much else to do I guess. (said in jest- not trying to [censored] off retired people or desert dwellers in general)<P>Yes, I disagree with most everything you say.<P>Well maybe not everything, but I do disagree with the way you put it, and the long winded nature of your posts. Noone likes to be called stupid, and unfortunatley that is the way your comments come off most of the time. The 8 and 12 cylinder Auburns are certainly deserving of full classic status. you need educated on this one. <P>It appears you think all the rest of us are a bunch of wannabee idiots bent on getting the model A (ford not duesenberg)certified as a full classic.<P>One must keep in mind that sarcasm doesnt read well in print. If you are being faceious (sp), it just isnt coming across well.<P>lets take this discussion off line if you want to respond, although I bet you a beer at the next grand classic, that you cant do it. You seem hell bent on always having the last word.<P>Shawn

I tried (really hard) not to read Peters most recent diatribe, but just couldnt resist. so peter here is my response...I hope you take it in the good nature it is put forward.<P>The definition you just put forward for "antique" (t heads and the like)is in keeping with your general viewpoint, which seems to be forever stuck in the 50's, prior to the development of many cars that are considered "antique" TODAY by any reasonable standard. (Generally agreed upon as being 25 years old or older). <P>Wake up Peter!(or should we call you Rip?) 50 years have just gotten past you! HA!<P>To Buicksplus...If adding the cars you have mentioned is so vital to the ongoing success of our club, why did the Milestone Car Society fail?<P>If you 2 really want to hash this out why not start some threads yourselves with this as the subject?<P>This poor annonomous soul was simply trying to find out what cars we would consider to be the cream of the crop of todays models (I think, although he hasnt been heard from since he started this thread)<P>There are several that will be significant or collectable cars. Maybe this should be on the AACA forum versus ours, but then again they recognise anything older than 25 years if i am not mistaken, while we are obviously more selective.<P>Cant we just HAVE FUN discussing things instead of always coming back to the same tired arguements which have little to do with the questions posed? <P>Shawn Miller<BR>Obnoxious Youngun<BR>Indiana Region

as an owner of the so called "lesser full classics", some of you guys will find it suprising that I really don't think we should accept cars built after 48. In fact I think the cut off used to be 42 and was changed at some point in the 70's since most cars built in the years right after the war are basically the same as those built right before it, at least structurally. 42 was fine by me!<P>Back to this guys question...Although this club and undoubtedly the milestone club (if it ever gets resurrected) will probably not expand their lists to include "neo classics" as I call them-there are some nice cars being made these days that do cost 5 times what a ford costs. they generally are foriegn, like Jags, Aston Martins, Ferraris, lamborghinis, Bentley, Mercedez, etc., although detroit has jumped on the bandwagon from time to time with the viper, prowler, ZR 1, etc. these are low production cars. they do have very high build quality.<P>It is not inconceivable that in the year 2025 or 2035 these will be classified as "antiques" and will be "collector cars". They may represent a "good buy" as they reach the bottom of their value curve (usually at the 10-15 year old point).<P>Shawn Miller<BR>Indiana Region

Peter:<P>i am no longer reading any of your posts, i just don't have the time or inclination. in fact if you say radials are the greatest thing since sliced bread, i will stay with bias plys. I think your manner of expressing your opinions pretty much negates them. <P>Please stay off of any threads I start.<P>Shawn

I hesitated to start this discussion here since I am trying to avoid politically charged subjects, but I think this needs to be discussed. maybe we should start a separate topic for it. I do know that a national Board member is bringing these cost issues up at that level so we may see a change there soon.<P>in my opinion kids should be able to come to any and all of our events free or almost free. I have never met a kid that could eat $40 bucks worth of food.<P>I think it is important to involve them in things like CARavans since our nation is quickly becoming "Homogenized", and our unique regionalism is disappearing at a rapid pace. 10 years from now it may be impossible to find any store other than Walmart in a small town.<P>As far as inviting people to our events, we simply need to publicize them. Trust me the public is interested in this. There should be a press release sent out to all local media whenever we have a grand classic or CARAvan. Feature articles would result. We should have our own show on Speedvision. Admission could be charged to non members which would generate money for the host region and help off set the costs to members. this would also keep it from becoming a free for all or mob scene. <P>If people are afraid it would get too crowded to properly judge and tabulate, then we could just make the public admission hours limited.<P>The biggest hurdle to expanding our club to people in my age group, are in my opinion to dispell the following myths:<P>1 the cars are too expensive for most people.<BR>2 the cars arent drivable.<BR>3 parts are unobtainable.<BR>4 servicing them is difficult.<BR>5 only the rich and famous need apply.<P>This will take education and time, but will be worth it. <P>We are but temporary custodians of these rolling pieces of history. It is part of our job to find someone to take care of them after our time is past. <P>Shawn Miller<BR>Indiana Region

The Packard 12 isnt the greatest car of all time. To be honest it isnt even on my top ten list!<P>OK I said it! let lightning strike me dead! yes the packard 12 is a great car but one would have to be considered myopic to think that nothing else holds a candle. <P>the word "stodgy" comes to mind. <P>While my Auburns and 41 caddys may be considered "lesser" by some snobish CCCA members, I like them just fine and they are recognised by the club as Full Classics so get off your soap box. this is a multi marque club. You need to be a little more sensitive to the fact that everyone likes different things, is entitled to their own opinion, and that people work hard to keep their cars in good order, even though they only have 6 or 8 cylinders.<P>maybe you could try learning why these cars are considered full classics instead of clinging to 50's doctrine.<P>Shawn

As a relatively young member (43) I think that everything is generally fine. there will always be "more demand" for a 56 tbird than a 12 cylinder packard, and who really cares. We shouldnt be threatend by car collectors who collect muscle cars, they clearly have the money to buy just about anything they want, they just need educated.<P>It is our job to educate them by getting our cars out there where they can be seen, not just taking them on CCCA sponsored events. We could also use to "open up" our events a bit. I don't think we want mob scenes at our grand classics, but select spectators would not take away from them in my opinion.<P>The cost of actually participating in this club is pretty stiff as well. A family of 4 recently attended the grand experience, and had to pay 4 registration fees(it wasnt me, but that is why i didnt bring my whole brood). give me a break! How can you expect the next generation to be interested in these cars if you make them stay at home with a babysitter. I know of at least 3 dedicated long term members who attended that event but chose not to "register" and didnt attend the 40 dollar a plate dinners either. <P>What does the "registration fee" really get you anyway? Heck, I paid as much to register for that event as peter here paid for his 12 cylinder packard! HA<P>The cost of the cars isnt the problem (I just missed a Full Classic 41 cadillac sedan for 4500 bucks last month!, yes it was drivable) its the cost of our events. This is the most expensive car club i am a member of. While our membership numbers are at at all time high I dont see our participation numbers at an all time high. many of these members have joined as a result of this website. we need to do something proactive to get these people involved or we will lose them.<P>Also we need to be NICE and WELCOMING in our discussions in this forum. the world is watching here. <P>As my mom used to say if you dont have something nice to say, SHUT UP! <P> <P>Shawn Miller<BR>Indiana Region

Oh Yeah! <P>Don't remove that senior badge! <P>It is supposed to stay on the car forever!<P>It takes quite a bit to get one (especially these days with people spending what they do on restorations, there is almost always a hundred pointer present) it is not something to be casually discarded.<P>Shawn Miller<BR>Indiana Region

Keith,<P>Congratulations on your acquisition! Lagondas are truly wonderful works of art!<P>I spent some time with some brits at hershey last year and they said that license plate ID's are bought and sold and some bring high dollar amounts if they are "desirable" which can be for any reason like someones initials, address, or whatever.<P>I too have a rare british car with the plate WD8897. They maintained that this number surely would have been taken by someone else by now, since they thought that this would be a desirable plate.<P>I had always thought that the plate followed the car for life over there, but am not sure after this conversation. Of course these guys were a jovial bunch, and they may have just been pulling my leg! HA! <P>You might try contacting the British Motor Heritage, although I have never been successful at getting a reply from them. <P>Shawn Miller

Thanks for the input guys! I think I will keep running my bias plys since they don't really NEED replaced, but will probably go radial after considerable research at some point, when they do.<P>Over the weekend several of us brought our Full Classics to a historic home tour. One guy brought a real nice 36 Auburn Cabriolet and he had installed the same diamondbacks mentioned above on stock wires (16"). They looked pretty good to me, and he was real happy with them. My 36 Auburn always followed every rut in the road with lesters.It also felt like the front wheels were miles ahead of me, but maybe it was just that long hood! HA!<P>Anyway, he said the handling was much improved with these tires. <P>I remember when he had them installed at my mechanics shop and the guys there mentioned that these were merely truck tires, as mentioned above.<P>I think it depends on the car. the 36 Auburn is a fairly modern car especially compared to a 20's car, and so is the 41 caddy, so in these cases radials probably work better than on earlier cars.<P>Shawn

I know there are radials available for Full Classics now but have hesitated to go that way more from an authenticity point of view.<P>My concern also has to do with the mechanics of running radials, which i feel may be incompatible with a good many suspension systems of the era. <P>i just got a 41 cadillac 62 series and felt this might be a car that could run radials without damaging the suspension. Any input from others? Has anyone run radials on this model? what have been your experiences?<P>Shawn Miller<BR>Indiana Region

Remember a contribution of an older gentleman in the bulletin some time ago expounding the fact that most full classics would not have been shipped from the factory with wide whites.<P>He maintained that these were considered garish at the time, and having lived through the era, i would think he would know.<P>On the other hand I have seen factory photos of Cords with wide whites. Of course Cords and Auburns are "look at me" type of cars, so maybe it varied from marque to marque.<P>Any guidelines here in anyones opinion as to what is appropriate for what model?<P>Shawn Miller<BR>Indiana Region

Having driven many cars, I was quite impressed with the handling of my 810 Cord, and feel it was almost unparalleled in this catagory in the pre war years.<P>Any other full classics that any of you have driven/owned that you would say would out handle a cord?<P>Of course the turning radius was limited, but we arent talking about parallel parking, just handling on the open road.<P>Shawn Miller<BR>Indiana Region

Often have wondered what the fastest full classic would have been. Being from Indianapolis, of course i would think it would be one of the cars eminating from here...either the marmon 16, J Duesie, or maybe dv32 Stutz. but then again those euro cars might give some of these a run for their money.<P>Any ideas or first hand experience?<P>Shawn Miller<BR>Indiana Region

Oh know! I have really done it this time! <P>I guess the Indiana Region just better hook up with the ferrari club since our charter is sure to be pulled over this grevious offense.<P>Oh well, so much for rising to director next year for me. Guess I better find another club to push my wannabe hidden agenda upon.<P>Damn! and I was certain I could get the pinto approved for full classic status after just a few more years of hard work and participation.<P>Shawn Miller<BR>big goat<BR>Indiana Region

Excellent Original Car with 60's Respray that is holding up well. Mechanically strong with rebuilt 2 Speed Columbia, fuel system, and suspension system. Great Tour Car. CCCA Full Classic, 3rd place in Touring class at 2000 Annual Meeting. Drive and show with confidence. Asking $25,000.00 Shawn Miller 800-837-9902 days or 317-823-3771 Evenings