ThomasBorchers
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Posts posted by ThomasBorchers
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Hi,
I have a question regarding starting a very old engine with „untimed inlet valves“.
We own a 1901 LeAster rear entrance tonneau, fully restored, really nice car. But to turn the engine over is really hard. The last time I had 14 days problems with my back.
The problem is that the inlet valves are not open by the camshaft like the outlet valves. They open by sucking when the pistons go down. ( sniffer valve?? I don’t know the correct translation ).
So, has someone a tip / hint how I can start this engine easier as now?
Kind regards
Tom
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Thank you, I wanted to avoid sending the coil such a long distance. I have seen before that Skip is the first address for this kind of coils.
In the meantime I made a test with ice spray and after I have cooled down the coil, the sparks were better again.
I am trying here to find a company to restore the coil but it seems that no one wants to do this.
Kind regards
Thomas
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@ 38: I edited my post because I made a mistake. The resistance on primary side is 0.9 ohms on both sides. So this should be normal. Condensers are brand new made by Valeo with pig tail as you said.
@19tom40: Well, what I found out in the meantime is, that after a longer time of running ( half an hour ) all sparks are really not the best. But on one side a little bit better but not the same as when the coil is cold.
Such a tester is a good thing which I should buy because we have other classic cars. Heat up function is important.
So what I would like to try as a last test is to let the car run until the sparks are weak. Then remove the coil and cool it down as fast as possible. Then replace it and start again. So perhaps I see then if the spark is again better. If not… there is probably be an other problem and I think then I have to send the whole distributor to an US specialist.
What I don’t understand is that the dwell is out of adjustment. I bought it as fully tested, cleaned up, new points… ok, seems not that it was the best work.
Kind regards
Thomas
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@38ShortopConv. : I understand, but the 30.5 is on the side where I have strong spark. But I understand that there is somewhere a problem in the distributor which I probably can't solve by myself. Is there a possibility to contact Gerry via mail? I am not really good over the phone in English.
@Ken: Thank you for your offer. Could you test also the coil?
Well, today I made another check with “hot” ignition coil. I checked the resistance of the coil but it is still 4,4 kiloOhms on both terminals. Cold or hot makes no difference. And also checked the voltage at the condensers and the coil input. No change if hot or cold. I checked the resistance of the ignition cables: No change if hot or cold.
Or says it nothing that the resistance of the coil is the same if cold or hot? And the coil could be broken?
But it is still the same, after warming up, the spark gets weaker and weaker. If everything is cold, it starts perfect, runs great but after a while… but I can’t imagine that this is a question of timing and synchronisation since the coil doesn’t change its resistance? I don’t understand this all, the distributor was tested as I ordered it and just 100miles or so on the street. Or is it the coil?
I am out of ideas.
Well, the problem is that I have to send the distributor to USA and it is a very long distance. I am afraid, that it could be lost over the long way. In worst case I would have another one but this is for restoration again with no coil. But it seems that it is the only way to bring the car back on the street for a longer time, not for just 10minutes or so.
Kind regards
Thomas
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Thanks for all your hints.
@ Bwatoe: Well, with cold engine it runs just on 4.0 volts with a strong spark. Heated up then not. And the left side works with 4.6 volts very well with cold and hot engine. But I have tried what you said with the 6 Volt direct from the battery and then... I had a strong spark.
@edinmass: No eletric fuel pump.
@38ShortopConv.: I checked the spark just with the ignition cable to ground. So the plugs itselfs could not be the problem.
@abelincoln: I have at the condenser terminal left 3.5 volts and right 3.1. On the terminals where the cables come from the restitors to the coil I have right 4.0 and left 4,6volts.
The dwell angle is on the right side 35.5° and left 30.5° at all conditions ( cold or warm engine ).
Today I have seen that when I have started the engine in cold condition that I have on all plugs ( ignition cables ) a strong spark. But after a while ( 10 to 15min ) all sparks on the right side getting weaker and weaker.
As far as I understand now, works the right condenser and point set for the right side of the engine. And the right part of the coil set also for the right side with its pin close to the engine side on the first part of rotor.
I have seen that the voltage at the coil and condenser is the same with good or weak spark. So actually… I would say that the right part of the ignition coil gets a problem when it heats up? Or something else which works just for the right side. And only with heated up engine. Or ist the 4 Volts which comes from the restistor too less?
Well, I try so much as I can myself since here is no one who has experiences with these ignition systems. Perhaps we have here in the country 3 Lincoln V12.
Small update from this evening: I changed the two input cables at the coil between the two terminals. Then I had 4.3 Volts. And at first I meant that now the spark on the right side was a bit better and on the left side weaker as before. But after next 10minutes the spark on the right side went weaker and now I had on both sides a weak spark. And tomorrow when everything is cooled down, I will have a perfect spark and good running engine. For 15 to 20 minutes….
Kind regards
Thomas
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OK, little update: I have measured the voltage at first at the terminals of the condensers at idle speed: left: 3.5 volts, right: 3.1 volts. Then at the terminal of the coil where the red leads on it: left 4.0, right 4.6.
Then direct at the resistors: 4.1 and 4.6. Input 6 Volts, Battery voltage is 6.2 volts ( generator is not charging, the next problem on my list ).
And I checked it again: On the left side of motor I have a regularly, strong spark. On the right side there is mostly a spark but not always and it is not that strong as on the left side.
So this means that I have a connection problem between the two resistors or one resistor has a too high resistance.
And I have to go inside now, it is too hot outside… 🌞🌡️
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Thanks you bouth for all your hints. I will check out several things. As far as I can remember ( it is more than 10 years ago ) I have bought a rebuild distributor and coil at “Lincoln Motor Car Supply” in Orwell, Vermont. But we have driven the car just 200miles or so and never the ignition problem was really solved.
Kind regards
Thomas
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Hi Ken,
thank you for the answer.
Well, I have tried now 3 sets of condensers. And I tried it already as you said, changed from one side to the other but the problem is just always on the right side of the engine.
Since I bought a restored distributor I would say, that the rotor should be ok. I have checked also if the plugs of the cables are clean and plugged in into the caps. The only thing I have not checked are the resisters because I didn’t know that they exist. I have found them and will try to check them. Do you now the value of the resistance?
But if the points works crossover, actually I should have then a problem on both sides at 3 Zylinders of the engine?
Thomas
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Hello,
I have still a problem with the ignition of my 1947 Lincoln V12. On the left engine side I have a regularly spark on every spark plug. On the right side I would say I have 90% regularly sparks. So sometimes on every spark plug of the right side a spark is missing. I would perhaps say, 10times a spark, then no, again 10times, no one.
I have a restored distributor, new coil, new condensers… and perhaps I don’t understand the ignition correct. If I see it correct, the two ignition points don’t work just for one side of the motor? So not the left one for the left side and the right one for the right side?
Would be great if someone could help me.
Kind regards
Thomas
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I found the problem, battery #4 had a bad contact at the plus terminal.
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Hi to all!
After the winter I wanted to start our 1913 6-54 roadster, I charged the batteries, they have 6.36 volts each. So fully charged. Wenn I press the button between the seats, then depress the clutch pedal, the starter not start to turn the engine. So I checked the voltage at each of the batteries when I pressed the button ( the voltage drops just a bit 0.02 volts ) when I depress the clutch pedal to turn the starter, 3 batteries drop to 6.25 - 6.20 volts. But one of them... ( it is #4 ) starts to boil and the voltage rises to 16.5 volts!
Has someone an idea what the problem could be?
Thomas
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Hi to all!
I am frustrated. I have worked and changed a lot of parts at my 1981 Cadillac Fleetwood with DFI. But now : The engine will not start.
I have already a long topic here ( http://forums.aaca.org/topic/280562-1981-cadillac-fleetwood-dfi-location-of-oxygen-sensor
The main problem was : Too rich running engine! It was not possible to read the error codes. ISC not working.
I did this in the past :
Put in new injectors
Rebuild the fuel pressure regulator
Adjusted the TPS
Changed the MAP Sensor
Checked the TPS
Checked the engine coolant sensor
Since the ISC was not working I disconnected it finally and set the engine idle speed around 800 rpm. So the engine run not bad but on the street, it had some power “holes”. It seemed that some ignitions were not there.
OK, so I decided to order a new ECM and ISC. Today I built in the ECM and ISC. At first, I wanted to check the error codes. I switched the ignition on and then the heater fan started to run. I switched it off, pressed down the “OFF” and “Warmer” button. After a short while, these two dots were shown. And that’s it… no 88 to check display or codes. After a short while, the fan started again…
I decided to start the engine and it started right up. It seemed that the mixture was not too rich but one or two cylinders worked not. I thought, that this was a problem from the last drive and started to check the spark plugs and some were wet. I seemed that somewhat was working in the ISC as the engine was running.
After cleaning the plugs, I wanted to start the engine, warm it up to adjust the ISC as described in the shop manual.
But now, I have the problem, that the engine will not start. Here and there is an ignition but will not run. I checked again the plugs and some were wet. And I can clearly smell the fuel of the throttle body but there is no leak.
I hoped, with these new parts I have the solution but at the moment I am more far away from the solution as before.
Today I had the chance to start again with cold weather but after a short while the engine run slower and slower because one cylinder after the other was flooded by gas and several spark plugs were wet. Mostly the ones in the middle of the cylinder heads. With just one injector, the engine is running but with two, in warm condition it goes off. This is a new situation since I have the new ECM and ISC.
The ISC is not moving but it is ok, I have checked the motor and the switch of it.
Has someone an idea?
Kind regards
Thomas
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Hello again,
well, in the meantime I am a bit more familiar with the DFI system.
As Larry told me, I have checked the TPS adjustment. The voltage was too high for the idle speed. To adjust, I had to remove the TBI body, drill out this small welding spots which block the “adjustment” screws of the TPS. There I found out, that the cam of the throttle cam has a bit too much clearance in the TBI body. But I have replaced the TBI housing as it was.
Then I tried to adjust the engine at 400rpm but this was not possible. The lowest speed I can set is 600rpm. Under this, the engine shuts off. Perhaps this is the result of the throttle cam play, don’t know.
So I set the voltage of the TPS at 600rpm at 0,6 volts which should not be too much. So actually from this view, the mixture should not be too rich.
I tried to do the adjustment as described in the shop manual with ISC and TPS. But the ISC is not moving. Since I know, that the motor can work, if it has voltage, I think the actuation from the ECM is not working as it should. Probably…
I removed then the plug of the ISC, set the plunger to an idle speed around 800rpm. The idling was ok now, the exhaust was perhaps a bit black but not that much as before. Then I accelerated the engine and the was a “hole” in the acceleration, was not really possible to speed it up. When I went slowly back to idle, it run again rough and with more black smoke as before.
At this point I decided to order a new MAP sensor since this part is also responsible for the mixture.
Today a have installed the new MAP. Well, actually it is like before but I mean, that it now accelerates better as before. But going slowly back to idle, I have than again a too rich mixture and the engine shuts off. When I then shut of the ignition, wait some seconds, start again, the engine runs again better with good idling and just a little bit black smoke or perhaps it is just blue from oil.
At the moment I come to the result, that the ECM could have a malfunction and need to be replaced. ( again… ). What do you think? It shows no codes, the ISC is not working and then the rich idling…
I am sorry for my English but it is hard to say all this in a foreign language.
Kind regards
Thomas
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After this day, I must say : The solution is close. With too rich mixture idling, I started to remove the whole ISC. I opened the nuts and then of course the idle went down. And… the mixture went leaner. So I got a good, not too rich idling. Hmm, I checked if the motor of the ISC is working but it seems not. I have tested the motor of the ISC outside the car. It worked but not really smooth. So I opened the ISC and cleaned it up with new lubrication. But I don’t understand this : If fully extended, the gear lose the contact to its spindle and it is not possible to retract because the gear turns now free. I don’t if inside is something missing to stop the motor at the end.
I guess, that something is not working correct between TPS, ISC and mixture… ?
OK, now, since the engine was idling good, I have problems to accelerate the engine. When I push the gas pedal, the seep rise up but then it seems as the mixture is now too lean to pick up speed. With faster push down the pedal, the engine shuts off.
At the moment I am happy that the rich mixture is gone but have to solve the other problem.
What I would like to know : How much volt about should I measure at the ISC connector?
Kind regards
Thomas
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Hi Larry,
today I tested the wiring of the coolant sensor. Seems that the sensor is ok, the resistances look ok. The wiring from the plug of the sensor to the plug at the ECM is also ok.
I cleaned up again the spark plugs and started the engine. Hmm, funny… the first minute it seemed, that everything is working, no black exhaust. But after ca. a minute the idle drops a bit and black smoke came again out of the exhaust system. But it seems, that it is not that rich as it was before. I waited the whole day and tried again with cold engine. Was the same… in the first minute it was ok, than again black smoke as it was in the morning.
And it seems that I have a problem with the ISC. Looks not so, that it is working. But I have to check this tomorrow with my shop manual. To adjust the TPS, I have to remove the TB and so on. A thing for tomorrow…
By the way : With engine running, the gas tank went empty and as the fuel pressure went down, the idle speed went up since the mixture was leaner and leaner. Of course just to the point, as the gas tank was really empty.
Regards
Thomas
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Hi Larry,
thank you. I will check this out. Ah, but I remember I checked already the TPS, the voltage was 1 Volt.
What I have seen today : When I disconnect one of the fuel injectors, it runs of course leaner. But : If just the drivers side is running, the mixture seems to be ok, a bit too rich but hard to see a black smoke. When I use just the passengers side injector, it runs too rich with black smoke. Actually the mixture should be the same? Could this be a a note of the problem?
Kind regards
Thomas
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Hello again,
today I had the chance to rebuild the fuel pressure regulator. I haven't seen something broken old parts, but the old spring is longer as the new one.
Now... it seems that the engine runs richer as before... hard starting, heavy black smoke...
Well, since I put in new parts, the engine runs richer and richer... makes it sense to change now the TPS?
Kind regards
Thomas
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Hi Ivan,
after testing a while ( the carb ist still in place at the car ), the funny thing is : You can turne the mixture screw as you like, it makes no different. Even when the engine is runnig, you can pull full choke : Makes no different! If the engine is running, it has full power, has a smooth idle and the spark plugs elektrodes look great. Could be that the engine goes off at a traffic light. If this happens : It is not possible to start the engine again. Just if you use some start spray...
For me at the moment... it is a mystery.
Kind regards
Thomas
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Hello Paul,
thank you for your answer. I will try it with rebuilding the TBI unit.
Kind regards
Thomas
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Hi to all,
after restoring our 1955 Oldsmobile Super 88 with Hydramatic ( was not on the street for 20 years ), I had the problem, that the transmission went into reverse as it shall, but not into a forward gear. After shifting lots of times, this problem is solved. So I went on the street. But.., there was no shifting up. I browsed through the shop manual at the trouble shooting but found not exact my problem. Just : Transmission operates only in 2nd speed ( DR range ) or only in 3rd and 4th speeds. As a cause stands there : Sticking valves in inner valve body or governor. And as correction : Completely disassemble and inspect valve body assembly and governor assembly.
Has someone an other idea or is this the way I have to go? And does this mean, that I have to remove the transmission?
Kind regards
Thomas
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Hello again!
I was some day on the roads in Sweden and now back to my Cadillac. Thank you for all the thoughts.
Today I have first cleaned up the spark plugs.
Then I started again but from the start of course again, heavy smoke. I wanted to check the vacuum from the TBI unit at idle speed, my gauge shows there -400 mBar. I don’t know in what I shall it to convert to US standard.
I have read in the shop manual, how to check the TPS, but for this I had to disconnect one of the injectors, then the engine run nearly ok. A bit black smoke but the engine run. After a while I thought, that the idle shall drop down but it will not work. Was still at the same speed with warming up. At this, the voltmeter shows 2 Volts, connected to the ECM. I have removed the ISC from its bracket to lower the idle speed. So I guess that I had the 375 upm but not really sure since I don’t have a tachometer which works for 8 cyl engines. At this idle speed the voltmeter shows 1 Volt which actually is too much, the book says 0,5 Volt. But is this a reason to run much too rich?
After this, it seems that the ISC is not working.
To all your questions :
To Larry : Well, the diagnostic system starts not with 88 as it should, it shows just two dots and then nothing. As I changed to the old broken ECMs then it worked as it should.
To Paul : I already have a multimeter since I have often to do with car electrical problems.
Yes, I have seen it, that it is possible to open the connectors at the back. Perhaps just one time, as you said.
On page one you have already written about the possibility to check the codes by “check engine” light. And I tried this already but the light will not start to flash. The ALDL is under the dashboard in the middle.
1.) : The check ignition lamp is already on, if I switch on the ignition.
2.): When the engine is running, it will not go out.
As I have written on Page one, as I used the both broken ECMs, then trouble codes 14 and 19 were shown. I know the reason for these codes : Someone has put a jumper in the connector of the coolant sensor and the relay of the fuel pump is removed and there is also a jumper wire that the fuel pump pumps all the time. I have connected the coolant sensor again.
Well, that’s it for the moment.
Kind regards
Thomas
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Hi Paul : Thank you again. Well, I am working at old cars since 20 years, So I guess, that I could manage to remove the TBI unit and so on. I am not really familar with these electronic things but changing parts, I can do it.
@ misterc9 :
I have checked the vacuum hose at the MAP. Actually I wanted to disconnect the hose at the MAP but this was hart to reach since there are all the cables from the ECM connectors. So I decided to disconnect the plastic line from the hose which goes into the TBI unit. But first I tried to suck a bit the the line which goes to the MAP. I did it very carefully but there was no resistance. I had a closer look to the MAP and have seen : There was no clamp at the hose at the MAP. I put one on it and then there was a resistance, as I sucked at the line. OK, I started the engine but ran very rich. But I ran just on 4 or 5 cylinders now, since all sprak plus must be dirty now. So I had now no chance to check if there is vacuum at the hose from the TBI unit. This will be the next step, but first cleaning the plugs.
I would need an adapter for my OSB scnanner but I am not sure if I can read there something, since the ECM diagnostic system will not work.
@ Larry : Is it possible to check the voltage with out a scanner, just with a voltmeter?Kind regards
Thomas
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Hello Paul,
thank you, for your explanation. Well, I thought, since the pressure was not to high, that it is not necessary to chnage the pressure valve. But seems, that I was wrong.
Somewhere else I have read, that the TP Sensor could be the problem, sending the wrong position to the ECM. As you said, that the problem could be also in the TP Sensor.
Well, do I need now a full TBI unit or can I change the TPS and fuel pressure valve by myself?
Now it is so, that it seems, that the engine gets more fuel as before I changed the injectors. But with this, it starts great.
Kind regards
Thomas
Starting a 1901 LeAster with "atmospheric inlet valve" easier?
in HCCA General Discussion
Posted
@ Greg: Ah, thank you for the translation. It is always hard to find out such things.
@ JFranklin: Good idea with a strong, healty friend who starts the engine for me. But I am afraid, that the one can not make all the tours with me then. 🙂
The engine was perhaps rebuilt but I don't know when.
@ Terry: No, it is not possible to hold the inlet valves open. Well, you mean that it could be possible to start on compression? I know this from my 1912 Cadilac and the Ford Model Ts.
@ : Al: Of course... but I have just one bad photo. I can't find the better ones at the moment. I have to take one more of the engine.
Tom