Rusty_1999
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Posts posted by Rusty_1999
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Hey! As an update to everyone i have moved my post to the Packard Info forums, and wow, i have received some awesome information, from a rebuilt 327 5 main, a disc brake kit from willwood, advice on converting the generator to an alternator, and even a transmission adapter kit to adapt to a gm small block transmission(allowing for overdrive too!!!!! I really appreciate it, and all of the private messages back and forth with people to find lots of great aftermarket solutions! Heck! Someone even pointed me towards a set of 6/12volt petronix points that would interchange in the stock distributor!
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3 minutes ago, alsancle said:
There is nothing wrong with this laying around for posterity. When you create your new thread over there, reply to this thread with a link to it.
Ok, thank you, i was just not sure if i should delete this thread or not because i would be moving my discussion to another forum, thank you once again.
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Hey i would like to thank everyone for their replies, i will be taking the advice of many and moving this post over to the Packard forums, Is there any way to delete my forum post here so it doesn't just lay around as a junk file on the server?
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On 12/23/2020 at 3:19 AM, Rusty_OToole said:
I had my say which was considerable and I understand if you don't agree with me. I would ask you to keep a record of your adventure with the Packard and report back once in a while.
One final thought. From what you are saying I get the impression the Packard is not the car for you. You don't like it the way it is, it is too big, too poor condition, burns too much gas, not reliable, not fast enough. You want to turn it into something more to your taste. That may seem logical but it would be even more logical to sell the Packard and buy a car that is closer to what you want. What is wrong with your 2010 Mustang? It seems it suits you better and would certainly be more roadable, reliable and economical for the kind of trips you contemplate.
On the contrary, although it may seem otherwise, i do agree a lot with what you said. My clarifications are because i have a rather difficult time putting my thoughts into words clearly, in fact this sentence is taking a few minutes to write too, to make sure it comes across clearly.
I really love the whole car to be honest, its very regal and graceful in its appearance, and i owe it to the engineers of Packard for designing such a great car! It is not too big, i love big cars, the bigger the better, so much so that i have a 74 Imperial in my collection too, and that thing is a 2 door but its larger than my patrician. I have no doubt this car will ride so smooth i could balance a cup of water on it in Arkansas and it still be there when i get to Maine. And i do know that it is not a fast accelerating car, but i do believe 80 mph would be better traveling time wise than 60, though it can do 80, i would like it to hold below or at 2k rpm for mileage. I will definitely be careful whatever i do. I am more scared working on this Packard and screwing something up, than i am my imperial, which is way rarer. Im nervous about even rebuilding the treadle vac brake booster, its so much more complex than any brake booster I've ever rebuilt. I would get another 50s car with this jet style body, but out of all of them, Packards are definitely the best, plus her floors are solid and there isn't an ounce of rust in her. I also only paid 1500 for her too, i basically stole this car. But given what has to be done to even begin to restore the original drive train, my figuring is why not do better? See what the engineers wanted to do and look at what can be done to modernize an ancient engine. But all the same maintain that famous Packard power plant! I believe this Packard is the car for me, there just comes a time we will all face, where we can no longer keep our cars all original, and still be able to drive it. OEM parts only get more scarce every year, and who knows how long individuals will take up the need to manufacture original designed parts? If people don't drive the cars there will be no need for these companies to exist. There will come a time, maybe not in my life, but one day where the only way to get parts is to spend $$$$ at a machine shop for a simple shim or bolt to be manufactured. (I'm excluding what can be manufactured by anyone at home).
On the note of the mustang, its only a weekender, the car has been through several wrecks, all of which i had to do substantial frame work(none were my fault or caused in any way by me). It's fixed but i don't want to daily the car, in fact it only gets driven on clear days out in the country away from city traffic and i plan to trailer it to track days next year when things clear up. You may use this argument against me daily driving the Packard, but the mustang saved my life, and that of my younger brother who borrowed it from my older brother and then wrecked it.
And plus, who wouldn't want to cruise the country in a stylish car from the 50's? I could get a 53 Bel Air, or a 53 Roadmaster, hell i could even get some cool lookin' Biscayne and be set but this car is way better and roomier! Seriously, this body style of Packard looks so much better than any of its counter parts!
Once again, i do thank you for your input, and i do plan to keep the car as original as possible. the only thing i know i will be doing that is not original is putting under dash A/C on the car. I would use the rear A/C system they came out with factory, but i cannot find one for the life of me.(though i have found a compressor and i can make the lines myself) All of these thoughts in this forum are merely contemplation, for now. I really appreciate the thoughts and input, just merely contemplating what might could be done to further improve old designs.
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I feel i should clarify my intentions a little more. I believe, although i may be wrong here, that cars are meant to be driven.
I am not one of those guys who is like "OH ITS MY CAR AND I WILL DO WHAT I WANT" if i was i wouldn't have posted anywhere. I will do what is right by the car. But i wish to see others ideas and opinions. I want to make the best decision to meet my ends, but also think of what is right by the car.
My ultimate goal is to try to change as little as possible but change what i must to make it haul and keep up in modern traffic. Sure a car like mine may take 60-65 no problem but its probably spinning close to 3k rpm the whole time unless that 2nd gear in the Ultramatic is overdrive. I'm not wanting ludicrous speed, I'm not James Hammond. But i do want to be able to go 75-80 for long stretches without stressing the car and get decent mileage. I just want o make it more suitable to modern traffic and roads, and be able to get up to the 75/80 mph freeway speeds.
Maybe a gear change from 3.54 to 3.23? I would appreciate thoughts this and what input yall might have!
Once again, thank you to everyone for your input, my point of this comment was to clarify my intentions a bit more. I sometimes like us all miss my own point while trying to convey a message and i wish to remedy that as much as i can. Thank you everyone! I do appreciate it and you have given me few extra ideas, plus i really like that thread on the model A ford. I plan to get Model T soon and use it as my only in town car!
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I would like to thank each and everyone for their input, i really appreciate it.
On the note that if i did engine swap it. After pulling out the engine and trans i would be left with a 3100lb car and then putting back in only 350-400lbs of modern engine and trans in it I'm fairly confident that the car would scoot and get around 35mpg easy if not the 26 mpg the 3.7 is known for in fords pickups(highway that is) which weigh about 4500lbs. And considering the aerodynamics of these cars i think she'd do just fine. The 3.7 makes the same torque and doesn't have to rev high to make any power. it has a great and very broad power band up until 5500 rpm
The only thing i would have to say about the argument for about engine swaps devaluing a Packard of my car's body style is that it devalues them to Packard only enthusiasts but attracts many non Packard enthusiasts. I've seen a good engine swapped Packard go for 15k before easy. I'm not saying it sold fast but after being on a market for 9 months it did sell. But most cars of this age and obscurity don't sell fast regardless.
I'm only 21 years old. And the market is only going to continue to slow down from my point of view, and my reasoning is that people from my generation are so uninterested in history and classic cars. They'd rather have a new BMW x909u0u24ri or whatever. Trust me, most of my generation knows nothing of hard work. And its probably for the better in some ways, most of them cant even grasp the concept of servicing their cars, let alone changing the oil after 100k miles. And they think classics are cool and all, but they don't want to service them themselves and then they wonder why the repair bill was insane. Plus a lot of my generation also does not seem to understand vent windows rock!
I'm not going to sell the car most likely due to sentimental reasons. I'm not concerned with resale. I could care less value to someone else, but i will never destroy a classic, I've fought tooth and nail to save some from the crusher before even if it meant they would be parted and not restored although they were basically road ready.
But....
As is the point of my post i really would like to keep at least the engine original. I do understand that the Ultramatic was groundbreaking and used an awesome lockup converter, but, i believe as many people on this forum have probably done one as well, that a transmission swap would really wake the car up. I've done some calculating whether or not they may be correct but based off of the gear ratios and total drive ratios in the 2 speed vs even a th400, i should at least pick up around 5 or 6 mpg due to the changes in the rev range and shift points.
I will make note, I am not expecting this car to be trouble free, far from it actually. I'm prepared to work on it day and night to make my dream of driving it everywhere a reality.
I am simply wanting to future proof this car as much as i can without relying on an engine swap. if i want to drive across country and only get 15 mpg then ill end up spending a lot on gas. Especially if i went to California for a while on vacation or a trip, gas is 4$ a gallon there. Im just thinking ahead so that if one day gas is 5 or even 6$ a gallon i wont be afraid of my wallet when filling up. Does anyone remember a few years back when gas was 4$ everywhere? I do for sure, i was 16 and my truck that i still have and drive gets 13-15 mpg highway. its not a fun story fueling up.
On the note of the engine itself, unfortunately it needs a lot. The entire valve train is missing except for the valves. The lifters alone will cost me 350$ or more after taxes. Its going to need pistons as well. All of the cylinders need to be sleeved. i could just do an over bore and larger pistons but i want to keep factory displacement as ridiculous as that sounds. I figure everything inside the engine is going to need a good polish. I fairly certain the engine will cost me a good 3500 alone.
I should also make mention in regards to the Ultramatic my car currently has, it is frozen up. I'm fairly certain of that.
I will say if anyone had another one of these engines just laying around i would happily take it off their hands.
As i meant to come across in my post, i want to keep the original motor in it. I just want to future proof the car so i can drive it years from now day in and day out, service it regularly and not worry about expenses just from gas alone. We know gas prices will rise higher. just when is the question. Plus it would be nicer even getting 20 mpg and being able to further on a 10$ fill-up.
Once again i would like to thank everyone for their input, i appreciate it and that is why i posted here, i like seeing others perspectives and opinions regardless of if i do or do not agree with them. It gives me another look and some new ideas as to how to go about things and gives me a fresh look from someone else's point of view!
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Oh, i also forgot to note, whether it matters or not, The steering wheel says Raineer on it if that matters any at all?
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Firstly, THANK YOU SO MUCH to those that have helped me come this far. I think i have a good idea of what this car is now or at least possibly.
I do in fact believe this car was on the road for at least some time, it just screams to me that it was for at least a year or two.
Here's how i think its story went.
The body, meaning mostly the front(hood, and what was the grille and the wheels all of the way around) resemble a Standard Eight way to closely. So I now believe that (especially looking at the body lines on my car where the fenders are missing and looking at the standard eights front fenders and hood) That someone somewhere, either in Europe or here stateside built this car off of a Standard Eight front end, put in a Cord 810/812 dash, and built this car.
What is an interesting thought is that MAYBE, Some soldier from WWII saw this car over in Europe and brought it stateside or someone who immigrated from Europe brought it with them either during or after the war. I like the idea that it was one of those little gas ration-er cars and that's why this may have been built, either that, or someone had what was left of a Standard and thought it would make a neat racer. Either way, i have no doubt it was originally constructed in Europe somewhere, probably Britain.
Once again i really appreciate everyone's comments and all of the information theory so far. I cant wait to see what we continue to uncover!
Also, does anyone have a photo of a Standard Eight's frame? I wonder if it was also used in the construction of this car or if the frame is completely home-brew? The whole frame was boxed and that's probably why it rusted so badly.
Also pictured below is a standard eight engine and the rear of another which gives us a god view of the wheel on the rear. She's definitely a standard eight cord thingy in disguise! But with how small the standards engine is and how small the engine bay is on my car i think we have a definite match. Now if or when i decide to attempt a restoration i may have an idea of what motor i need to acquire(i was thinking an MG engine if one cannot be found).
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To TTR, no i assure this whole car is solid metal. And maybe it is home built, but it being what it is it doesn't come across being as such, but if i am wrong regardless its super cool!
To Asancle and dustycrusty-- Holy crap!!! I haven't even gotten that far in the 2 years Ive had it, that's an exact match!!!!! But it still begs the question of what is it? Austin wheels and a Cord dash? This thing is getting weird! Aren't Cords super rare? maybe not but who just has a cord dash laying around? Or maybe in my case with this car, who had? What do you guys think, a Renault/Austin/Cord mystery car? I'm excited just knowing what the dash is from, its awesome y'all recognized those parts! I've been lost for 2 years now!
But then the question begs to be asked, the control arms patent dates to France in 1927, the wheels are from(correct me here if wrong) an Austin, and the Dash is from a Cord??? This is some awesome information, I've been stuck on this thing for so long!
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Renault??? I didn't even think of that. Any idea what model might have been similar?
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This is the final photo set for now, all replies are welcome, and once again, if this is not the proper place to post this i will remove my posts. Thank You!
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note the size of the car as compared to the 20s Buick beside it.
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Ok, since i seemed to have stirred a bit of a hornets nest this morning since joining the forums, i think ill do it once more. This time though, i need help identifying a car i own. and i will provide what few photos of it my computer has and what information i do know about it.
Firstly the story of how i acquired said car.
I found it on an add near my family's cabin in Heber Springs Arkansas. I contacted the individual who at the time owned a shop and had several other antique cars like the 20's model Buick pictured near in the background of one of the photos i will post. He said he got it from a local house that had recently been bought by a new couple, they discovered the car in a barn on the property that they were about to tear down due to it falling apart. From what we could both gather, the car had been in the barn for at least 45 years if not greater. The original engine is long gone and could not be found on the property. The car is approximately 10ish feet long or maybe a bit short. its small. When i bought it from him he told me he had offers of about 10k for the car unidentified as it is, but he sold it to me instead for 1,500 because he did not want to see it leave the state. Say what you may about this, but he was sincere and i agree, i do not want this car to leave this state either. But what is interesting is there is no way this car was whipped up in some random local garage. It has a lot of craft work put into building it. It even had a water cooled engine, whether it be a 2 or a 4 cylinder only the past knows for now.
It does still have the original rear end and gas take
original spare tire cover
The bumpers are probably not original as can be seen in the photos i will post.
It has a patent date on one of the control arms that dates it to 1927 in France and with the car being right hand drive i have no doubt this is where it originated. I will get a photo of this in the coming days
It has all four wheels and the wheels have 3 lugs each
Believe it or not the mechanical brake in the front and rear still work, but the frayed cable to the rear speaks otherwise to those unknowing.
It is such a strange little car and i had to have it. Iva had the car for 2 years now hiding it in a storage unit far from the nearest rain. It unfortunately will need a new frame, the box frame rotted out on it from being left in the barn for years unattended.
I do apologize if this is not the correct forum to be posting something like this in, and if that is the case i will remove the post entirely. I just figured there would be a good knowledge base here to help me identify it?
Photos will follow, please don't reply until i have posted all of the photos and leave a mark on the final photo indicating so.
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I appreciate that on the rear axle. I believe it was in an old service book i have for the car. Or maybe it was some where else. Thank you for that. ill do some more research and that may just change my mind on a few things!
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Yes! i couldn't believe it either when i first got the car. I've looked at the engine code stamped on the side of the rear block. They built the 9 main in 53 as a last resort because they didn't have an OHV V8 engine to compete and in 54 as a last ditch they punched it out to a larger 359. Now they may have had the 327 9 main in 51-52 but i do not believe those in 51/52 had the hydraulic valve train and canted valves like the 53 and 54 did. And yes, my car does has a 4 barrel manifold. It was equipped on all patricians with the 9 main. My post about the manifold was because it has several sharp turns and probably doesn't flow that well robbing the engine of power and economy.
And alsancle i would love to do a Paxton. that would be so much simpler than turbos. I just cant for the life of me fine a complete unit for a reasonable price. But i do have a few ready to go small turbos waiting around!
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I should clarify. It is my fault for not being clearer.
I have posted here because i am looking at NOT engine swapping my car. While i do have the opportunity to do so, i would like to see what could be done to MODERNIZE the ORIGINAL engine and drive train overall.
Packard did very well when engineering their automobiles. BUT, unfortunately time and progress march on.
I think modernizing the original drive train and NOT engine swapping would be a spectacular route. My main goal is to be able to daily drive my car across country like it wasn't a day old. And i will do what i must to reach this goal.
BUT, i will not be doing anything to damage the car itself. I understand how rare Packards are, especially just how few of my specific model and year were built and remain. Whatever i end up doing i will do in a way that it can be undone and restored to Original Factory specifications. I will not cut and hack away, i will be meticulous and precise.
Personally i want to keep the original drive train. But with any car of its age to keep up on the modern road it needs some modernization. I feel Original factory spec restorations are great and all, but you probably cant take a car like that down route 66 both ways and then a week later go from North eastern Arkansas to Maine and then from Maine to Pensacola and then back home to Arkansas without significant issue. Times change, this car has only 72k original miles, but times change and i plan on driving more than 72k miles cross country. Instead of driving only 25k miles every 7 to 10 years we do 100k miles in under 3; A factory Packard probably couldn't keep up, no matter how much anyone wants to say otherwise. When is the last time one had 100k miles? Whens the last time one wasn't 50k miles in and needing a full rebuild? Mine was probably smoking at 65k miles, there is a spot on the rear where smoke stained it over years of running.
I want to do better than factory. Imagine what Packard would've done with modern EFI and timing control on one of these engines?
Also, Padgett, that is my thoughts exactly. If i were to swap in the 3.7 i was going to build a mounting system that would bolt in and not do a single bit of welding. I actually already have some designs that utilize the original engine mounting points for the whole system! If i do the engine swap i will ultimately restore the original engine and trans and put them aside if I or someone else were to want to restore the car to factory condition.
My apologies if i come off as rude in my post. I do not mean to do so. I simply believe that i need to clarify my intentions. I did not do so satisfactorily in my original post so this was simply my correction of my mistakes.
I do understand now that i may have posted in the wrong forums but the AACA seemed like a good starting point.
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Yes my apologies. I do not take offense Matt, in fact i appreciate it! I do admit that thought came across my mind before posting, but in the long run i figured input from the OE community would give me better insight. I might end up doing a complete factory restoration too. I think my only real issue is the transmission and read end.
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I am the owner of a 1953 Packard Patrician. This post will be mostly for those fellow Packard owners.
From the factory my '53 came out with the rare 327 nine main Flathead straight eight (for non Packard guys it SERIOUSLY has NINE main bearings). It has the Ultramatic 2-speed transmission, and what i believe to be a 4.55 geared rear end. The engine needs significant machining work due to the head being left off for years, and missing all of the valve train but it is very savable, just very expensive......
What i would like to do will be one of two things:
Either swap in place of the old engine a 3.7 liter v6 engine and 6 speed auto out of a 2011 mustang I have for parts for another car.
Or Rebuild the original engine and trans and probably spend thousands.
Now, I understand many will hearken me to swap engines but hear me out. As rare and unique as Packards are, as well as the high quality of craftsmanship put into them, especially a Flathead straight 8 with 9 main bearings, it almost seems wrong to swap the engine out. Plus there is the added headache of doing the engine swap due to mounting the engine in the engine bay(Packard mounted the 327 at the very front and the engine is 4 feet long), and the wiring mess the car may become especially since very few people do 3.7 swaps as of yet.
And before someone says it. YES, i could do an LS swap, but... I got the 3.7 for free, I bought the car it is in for 900 dollars and got 1500 dollars in parts from it to fix my 2010 mustang so the motor is basically free and has 90k miles or less. Plus there has been an LS swap done already on a 53 clipper sedan. It looked great, but I'm in the mood to do something different.
Plus most LS motors factory make 270hp and 320lbs vs the 3.7 v6 which makes 315hp, and 300lbs of torque, and weighs 200 pounds less and has a 6-speed vs the majority of LS engine with a 4l60 4 speed. It weighes less, is smaller and makes the same-ish power.
(Keep in mind the factory engine and trans weigh 1100 pounds on their own so swapping would make the car weigh around 3500lbs vs 4200lbs and really scoot down the road.)
Alright enough with the preliminaries, lets get onto the point of my post here.
If I do decide to keep the ORIGINAL ENGINE and rebuild it there are various things I would like to do to modernize it and I am open to suggestions or any useful information about these engines. Especially anything from the old guys who use to races these engines back in the day. What were the tricks?
Firstly I would like to put a modern transmission up against the engine. Maybe a th400 with a gear vendors overdrive to make it a 6 speed? Or maybe the 700R4 or a Ford AOD. I would rebuild the 2 speed but its incredibly expensive, meticulous, and I want more than the factory estimated 15 mpg highway. I plan to drive my car everywhere and take it over 100k miles at least.
Second, I figure part of the issue with the car only getting 15 mpg factory is the 4.55 rear end. They did this because of the 2 speed trans iI assume. The motor factory makes 180 hp, 300 lbs of torque and the car only weighs 4200 lbs, it doesn't struggle to move like other cars of its time.
I have a ford 9-inch laying around but if anyone knows anything about these old Packard rear ends and where I might come across a lower gears set for one such as a 3.73 i would really appreciate it. If not i appreciate any recommendations on what to do with the 9-inch instead.
I really only want to hit the 25 mpg mark. But if it gets better then HECK YEA!
Third and MOST IMPORTANT. If i am not able to change the above two that will be fine in the end, but i would like to change this one.
I would like to do multiple things to the engine itself. I would like to hire a shop to polish and potentially port the engine to really free up some mileage and power, and I would like to commission a custom intake and exhaust manifold for it as well. Does anyone have any suggestions on who to call? I do not care for price, I don't have much money but I will save and spend it if I choose this route. Money is no object, only a means to an end.
On the topic of the intake and exhaust, I would like to either do a dual 2 barrel or another single 4 barrel setup like factory. But I will be using an EFI system like Sniper from Holley or Fast.
I want to use EFI because I would like to turbo charge the engine. Nothing major, i just want to hit either the 300 hp. mark or make 400 lbs of torque. The engine has a light compression ratio of 8.7:1 and I feel like even the factory rods and pistons should be able to handle 5-8 lbs of boost. I'll probably only try to run about 6 at most. I've seen many supercharged but I'm just a bit different in my methods.
But on that subject, does anyone have any recommendations? How to go about it? Any good fabricators who like the challenge of an older engine with modern parts?
If possible i would also want to do a cam upgrade but no one is going to machine me an almost 4ft long camshaft. Besides, I don't believe these engines had very large cam profile. Correct me if I am wrong here.
I still want this engine to run whisper quite as it did factory, but with more whoosh and to give it a competitive edge on today's roads. I feel like it would be a marvel and a really fun challenge as well as quite the spectacle.
Yes I understand a flat head is not the most efficient engine, but I want to see what it has left in it, give it a bit of a modern edge and see how it performs with a few modern twists.
On a side note, I do remember that at one time someone had converted a 5-main variation of this engine to OHV by machining two 4.7 dodge heads together. Does anyone know who they are? It was on an old forum and I could not get any replies, but in their defense the forum was significantly antiquated. If anyone could contact them I would like to ask a lot of questions, who knows maybe I'll do it too?
Also i do know that the next year with the 359 engines they offered an aluminum head. They were prone to cracking and are rare but they do fit, and I wouldn't mind finding one.
All comments are welcome, but please be respectful of others and if correcting someone please do not be rude.
This post assumes entirely that i keep the original engine in place but modernize it!
Attached is a photo of my car taken with a Black & White DSLR.
I will be going with the patina look and just clear coat the original paint for those who may be wondering!
1953 Packard Patrician 327 9 main flathead upgrades or engine swap?
in General Discussion
Posted
I did forget to mention, although some may advise me otherwise, but i have found that a throttle body EFI system like that of Holley Sniper will work with little adaptation on the manifold. Some may ask why i would rather use the EFI system vs the very reliable carburetor and that is because i will be driving across country from the lows in Florida to the mountain highs in Colorado, and i can just see a new EFI system keeping up with altitude changes and help with keeping better fuel mileage over time as well.