Tim Crowder

I remind them of that whenever I go by the museum. I think it’s easier for them to move it into another room with the top down.

In rebuilding the body of the 1918 Kline Kar at the Virginia Museum of History and Culture, I noticed how much wood was used in the sub assembly, from the doors to the main body. Any vehicle that wasn’t garage or barn kept over the years would soon begin to deteriorate. While body shops could repair the sheet metal at the time, wood repair was another story. I based the original estimate of approximately 2500 cars produced on factory records, serial number lists, and known buyers of the Kline. I have a list of 256 buyers of Kline Kars from between 1909 and 1919. This list includes buyers from coast to coast and overseas shipments as well.

I remember it being yellow in the photos. That explains why the owner that sent me the photos never responded back when I gave him the bad news.

I reviewed a group of photos several years ago from someone that had purchased what they were told was a 1910 Kline, however based on my factory records, factory photos, etc., I couldn’t verify it as being an original Kline. It could have been assembled from replacement parts over it’s life. I believe it left the northeast and ended up in Spain. The collector that you mention wrote a great book about the history of Pennsylvania built automobiles.

You should be very proud of your work. The top and paint really make the car look amazing.

This is what I started with in 1985. some of my reconstruction. When I completed my work and the car went on to its next phase of completion. I have a photo album of images from the beginning to the end of my work. Again, the staff at White Post did an excellent job finishing this project. We all share in the credit for the Kline Kar now on display in the Virginia Museum of History and Culture.

Thank you for posting the link.

Sadly, I seem to have been blocked this evening on Facebook by White Post. While I’m flattered by the personal attention, I guess my telling the whole story of my years of work on the Kline Kar prior to its completion was too much. Their team did a great job to complete the project, however many years of labor and expense by me are well documented.

I’d be happy to. I keep thinking that A.D. Price, the original owner of the Kline would be thrilled.

Its amazing to see that the 1918 Kline Kar that I rebuilt over a ten year period with the restoration process being completed by the amazing staff at White Post Restoration has now been recreated as a 2022 Christmas ornament, available from the Virginia Museum of History and Culture in Richmond Virginia. This can be ordered from their Website, with proceeds going to support a great museum and collection.

The Kline Kar company never installed a top with a side window like the one in the photo. Also, they never used cowl lights. The vertical hood louvre for Kline would be available on cars after 1920. I would go with it being a Chandler.

For anyone interested in the real history of the Kline Motor Car Company and the saga of this particular car, I would recommend the Dec.1992-Jan. 1993 issue of Richmond Surroundings magazine. There is a great article by Harry Kollatz, Jr. that offers a history lesson of Kline with a lot of photos and information that I collaborated with him to draft. The Kline is beautiful and it is where I always intended for it to be. Like myself, the Museum is not interested in car show judging standards but instead is presenting a piece of Virginia history to Virginians. Happily, the car is not part of a private collection where it would only come out for trophies but is available for anyone that is interested. The craftsmen at White Post have done a terrific job finishing the car. While my ten year effort might not have reached show standards because the Museum purchased the car when I was mid way in my work, that was never my focus. I think everyone involved with this project should share in its success. From Dave Garriques, who first bought the car in the 1970’s and stored it until my ten year effort to rebuild all of the wood and rebuild the body and all of the mechanical components began, to the completion by White Post. This is not a “restored by” project but instead was a team effort beginning in 1987. The Kline Kar looks amazing and everyone should be proud.

The 1918 Kline Kar project that began for me in 1987 has been completed by White Post Restoration and it is back in the Virginia Museum of History and Culture in Richmond. Beautiful job by the staff at White Post. What began as a project for me in 1987.and when I had taken the work as far as I could.The car looks great and I’m sure we’ll be hearing about it for some time. Pictures of the finished car can be seen on the White Post Restoration webpage.

I received a set of photos about twenty years ago from someone that had bought what he was told was a 1913 Kline Kar roadster. The car came from a museum in New York. Based on all of the information that I have, I couldn’t verify that any parts of the car were Kline. However, it could have been assembled from parts. The other Kline vehicle is a race car that was originally built at Kline’s York factory in 1912 with standard parts. The Duesenberg engine was installed in 1917. This car and the other Kline racer had a long track history. The only surviving Kline racer with the Duesenberg engine is in the collection of Sam Mann.

Thank you Wayne. As I’ve mentioned before, my goal was always to have the Kline available for public, museum display. With all of the local attention it has caused, I often wished I had locked it away as the owner before me had done. I’ll ultimately be glad when it’s back in the Museum’s hands and the quality of my work will not be judged. The car’s history will be the most important aspect.

The original fenders with patches were supplied with the car as patterns only. There was never any intention that they were to be used. The ignition system is Connecticut and a new distributor and coil we’re not available so a replacement was installed with a new drive gear to match the original. Again, I said that knowledge of the Kline Kar is limited at best and not that the shop had no general restoration knowledge. I’m sure that many expensive show cars have passed through the facility over the years, however each car has to be considered as unique. What typically works on a car from the period, may not be correct for every car. I look forward to seeing the results.

All of the original mechanical components, engine, transmission, rear, brakes, etc. were rebuilt prior to the new “restoration “ process. As the previous owner of the Kline, I’ve tried to provide as much information to the Museum as possible to aid in this work. I have catalogs, factory photos, etc. however I think the “shop” considered that as interfering. I appreciate the individual craftsmen that are working on this effort. I think they are doing a great job. It’s a shame that the shop wasn’t given a blank check and unlimited time. I’m flattered by earlier comments from those who no nothing about the Kline Kar that said the Kline was “a mess” when they received it in the shop. Having worked on it for over ten years, I preserved it and it will still retain its history when it returns to the Museum in May. Some day when bill rates, trophies, awards, and “restored by” recognition is not important, the Kline will run again as it did when owned it.

Terry, You have stated my position perfectly and thank you. With the Kline Kar project, I tried to keep as much of the original fabric of the vehicle as possible. Too often when the experts perform their “inspection “ of a vehicle, they focus on replace and not repair. If the vehicle is one of a thousand and replacement parts are readily available, I would say upgrade the parts. However, for a one of a kind vehicle, the same rules shouldn’t apply. Some would recommend welding up all of the bullet holes on the Bonnie and Clyde car or replacing the interior. I understand that this is about business. I think it’s sad though when those with little historical knowledge of a Kline Kar other than Internet searches and conversations with car club members deem our 1918 Kline to have been a “mess” when they received it.

I’m flattered by the thought that I would be seeking “revenge “ by not donating my collection. Never entered my thoughts. When the car is displayed later this year anyone that has sanded the car, done research on it, or has any knowledge of it will be there to provide their expertise. My collection will always be available to anyone interested in the history of this car and the Company.

To clarify my earlier post, I have no resentment about a restoration effort. My concern is one that I’ve seen time and time again with car restorations. In some instances, what is left in the end is simply a recreation where rather than repair pitted metal for example, new panels are made. As I’ve mentioned before, I’m interested in preservation and not recreation. The car being received at the restoration shop being “inspected “ and considered to be a “mess” is what keeps these shops in business. When I begin work on my next Kline Kar, it will be preserved and not recreated. My collection will stay with it. As with the 1918 Kline, my goal will not be shows, trophies, or “restored by” recognition but the simple preservation of history.

For an update on the Kline Kar “restoration “ process, there are two articles that came out in the last week in local publications; a Northern Neck ( Virginia) publication and another in the Augusta Free press. These can be found in a Google searches for Kline kar. Both provide very good historical information about the original owner of the car, A. D. Price in Richmond. In one, I was actually given honorable mention for my partial donation to the VMHC. Both articles ignore my ten years of restoration efforts and instead, focus on the 1000 billable hours spent so far by the restoration facility. The implication is that the Kline that was on display at the museum never existed. After a careful inspection by the shop, I’m sure that the decision was made to redo a ground up “restoration “. Example; I remade the original wood wheels and painted them. Since then, they have been sanded and repainted (restored). And so it goes. Had I known that this car would end up being a magnet for anyone claiming knowledge and credit for rebuilding it, I would have parted it out and never invested so much time and energy. My goal was to donate my collection of Kline Kar company records, photos, catalogs, etc. to the museum, however they will probably go elsewhere or be sold to a collector.

The Kline Motor Car Company produced a form of assembled car for all of the years that they were in business in both Pennsylvania and Virginia. Typically, they purchased all of the mechanical components for their cars from standard parts suppliers. The bodies however, were always constructed from scratch in their factory. The fenders were standard, purchased items as were the wheels. Early on, they bought the Kirkham motor plant and used their manufactured engines. Later, they bought and used Red Seal 7W Continental engines, Grant/Lees transmissions, and Hess differentials. The frames were also purchased assemblies.

I’ll have to admit that I only go to car shows now for the flea markets and parts. When I was younger, we went and enjoyed looking at the older restorations or original cars. Since then, I’ve lost interest in seeing over restored vehicles. It seems that some cars are “restored” to showcase the owner’s ability to spend thousands of dollars on the project and less on keeping them as close to original specifications as possible. I would rather see a Model T that was restored by its owner several years ago than a Mustang where a shop gave it a $30k coat of paint (granted, this is often done at the owners request). Its sad that as with most other hobbies, more and more money has crept in, often making the shows more about the car owners or the restorers and less about the vehicles themselves.

For me, over half of my interest in a particular car is it’s history and past owners. The history of the make and model are important but also just as important is who owned it, family or business photos of the car when they owned it, and the stories or memories from previous owners. I have no interest in creating my interpretation or a shop’s interpretation of how the car should look when it was new. If a car that I preserved or “restored” receives recognition in some form, that’s great however I don’t work on them for investment potential, awards or trophies. I’m more interested in sharing what information and history I have on a particular car in a museum setting. I’m not interested in showing a car where it would be judged against restoration standards that might not apply universally to all cars in the same class. The history should be just as important as whether it now has the correct new tires mounted.

For me, the issue is the preservation of a rare, original car versus the over restoration of a car that ultimately becomes a recreation instead of a restoration. When I was rebuilding my Kline Kar, I never had any interest in shows or trophies. My focus was on preserving history. My concern is that so much money has entered into what for most of us is an enjoyable labor of love that cars are being restored by shops where original parts not meeting their standards are being discarded. With restored race cars particularly, if the original drivers were still alive they would walk past their old vehicles and never recognize them. I agree with those that keep the hobby alive by doing their own research and work where possible. It basically comes down to whether we want to preserve a vehicle for its historical significance or contract a shop to give us their interpretation with a goal of awards and recognition. I create the same detailed photo albums and records of my work as do the professionals. My work may not be up to their standards, however when I’m finished, the car is as close to original as I can make it with repairs and paint done where necessary. The original owner could walk up to it and recognize it as their car and have memories of how a dent or scrape occurred.