timecapsule
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Posts posted by timecapsule
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I'd like some advise on setting up my pinion on my 1930 Hudson please. Back in sept of '22 I asked a similar questions when I first approached the differential issues on this car.
But this time, I'm trying to reset my pinion setting. The last time, after I had the pinion rebuilt on the differential, that was on the car when I bought it, I discovered that the right side of the differential housing was cracked in 4 places right at the attaching bolts to the left side. So I fortunately came across a couple complete differentials. The first one I pulled apart, was missing a couple key parts. But the second one was in good shape, so with fingers crossed, I just bolted it in and it has been good for a year and a half.
However I recently posted a thread on here, where I was hearing a "clunk" noise. I've gone over the car stem to stern and I've had a couple mechanics stand beside the car as I take off and they agree that it seems like the noise is coming from my differential.
I removed the differential housing/pinion housing assembly and mounted it on an engine stand. I reduced the backlash to within specs but as I grab the splined end that bolts to the driveshaft and give it a quick twist I can still head a clunking noise. So I've come to the decision that I need to bring the pinion gear closer to the ring gear. According to the manual, it seems to be that to do that I need to remove one of the large diameter, brass shims between the differential housing and the pinion housing. ( see picture) I have 4 in there. 3 are 13.5 th. and one is .010 th. So I removed the .010th shim. The manual says "Adjust pinion, so that backface of pinion teeth is flush with outside face of drive gear"
But I'm thinking that they mean the inside face of the ring gear and the end of the pinion shaft gear. Because you can't even really see the other end (outside face). Plus that end of the pinion gear has the teeth cut on an angle at the end, so it would be hit and miss to get an accurate reading, even if you could see it. Where as the end of the pinion gear is a right angle cut on the end that you can see. ( see picture) But as I held the pinion gear sort of in place by hand without the pinion housing so I could see both ends. It looks like it is flush on both ends to the ring gear. So I think that part is good to go.
So now we're getting to my real question. The smaller bearing has a couple pitted rollers, so I'm replacing it with a new one. When I bolt the pinion assembly together and set my preload on that bearing, do I leave the bearing dry or do I rub a bit of the rear end oil (600W) all through the bearing?
I've read that you have to put a monstrous preload on a new bearing in this case. Something like 200 ft. lbs. My next question is how do I accomplish that? On the end of the pinion there are a pair of flat surfaces that a 11/16" wrench will sort of fit on it. (see picture) Would I put that end in a vise so I can torque down the 1 1/4" but on the other end to set the preload?
My next question is do I use the same bearing shims that were in place on the pinion shaft for the old bearing? Or would I add one or subtract one? At the moment there are 5-.015 th. shims and 1-.010th shim totally .080th I have a bunch more .015 shims. Now I know that the splines on the end piece need to extend past the splines on the pinion gear, so that once the preload is applied, it doesn't bottom out before the required torque is applied. So I'm thinking it might be obvious when you don't have enough shims in place, but how do you know if you have too many shims? The manual says there should be a bit of resistance when turning the pinion nut after the correct torque and shims are set. Kind of a vague statement, to say the least.
On these old cars, as most of you may know, if you don't get both or either shim selection right, you have to disassemble the whole assembly and try again. It's a real pain, especially since it takes a lot of persuasion, tapping on the side of the pinion assembly to remove it each time. Like about 50 soft blows with a rubber dead blow hammer as you try and pull out on the assembly with your other hand. Slowly after about 5 minutes it will come off. The entire process is very time consuming.
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On 12/3/2023 at 6:33 AM, 61polara said:
I wonder how Pertronix works with the required grounding of the ignition system for the simi-automatic transmission to downshift when the accelerator is floored. I think I would try to find out why your condensers are burning out.
I was pondering the same question in my head as I read the OP. In all the years I've had my '48 Windsor, I've never had any issue with the condenser.
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1 hour ago, mikewest said:
It will never fail if you dont drive it. New wheels are so cheap!
My car is a daily driver. Almost 365 days a year. With the exception of when they salt the roads in the winter. Rather than going for "cheap" wheels, I decided to go with a vastly improved, much stronger, and much safer wheel.
If we're talking "cheap", I would think that I probably have maybe $10 material investment, if I was to go and buy the steel that I used. But I happened to have everything I needed. So maybe I used a couple bucks of hydro to fire up the mig welder.
No disrespect to the wooden wheel replacement companies out there, but you are at the mercy of their choice of the hickory that they use for your particular wheel. You have to trust them that the hickory is at it's moisture content of equilibrium. If it's not dry enough, it's a recipe for disaster. Even if the wood's moisture content is bang on, I'll guaranty that a rebuilt wheel sent to Florida, California, and the north west corner of Canada, will all end up with a different diameter of the tenon after 12 months or so.
I was a wood turner for several decades and I would dry fresh cut hardwood, using various methods, too involved to talk about here, but most hardwoods take at least a year to reach their moisture equilibrium, Holly for example takes at least 3 years. What I'm considering as a custom, is that there is the possibility of oversight or cutting corners on the part of the wheel maker in order to produce prompt service.
I've always been of the mind, if you want something done right, do it yourself.
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13 minutes ago, Larry Schramm said:
IMO, Fix it right and have new spokes made. Safety should not be short cutted.
I agree, Safety is priority. Which is why I did it my way. Making the wheel probably 100% stronger that a brand new wheel back in 1930.
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In the end, I actually did repair the wheel. But I re-invented the construction of this wheel so now it is much much much stronger than the original method and has zero chance of changing.
It took a bit of planning and thinking and extreme caution going slow and checking and rechecking often.
What I did was reverse the fastening of the spoke to the rim by using a custom made steel peg going down into the spoke. For the peg portion I used 1/4" bolt that was about 3 inches long and utilized the long unthreaded portion of the bolt and discarded the head and threaded portions. I had some sleeve type spacers that had an ID that was 1/4". The OD was slightly larger than the inside diameter of the rim portion that the tenon fits in. I then cut the spacers to match the depth of the steel portion of the rim that the tenon was in, which was about 5/16" in depth. Then I welded the unthreaded 1/4" section inside the spacer. Each peg portion was cut to about one inch long and the end of it was ground on an angle that matched the angle of a 15/64"" drill bit that I would use to drill into the spoke. I then used my grinder to get the OD of the large portion of the peg to match the ID opening in the rim where the wood tenon used to be. Unfortunately I don't have a lathe or this process would have gone much faster.
I fortunately had a spare rear end for the car, so I set it up at waist height and put the wheel on and tightened the nut. Then I set up a dial indicator so it would give me a reading as to how true the wheel was when spun, and that was checked multiple times throughout the process. Then with a dremel tool I cut out the wood tenon on the first spoke. With that tenon cut out, that end of the spoke was free from the rim.
I found a brass plumbing fitting with internal threads and a nipple to match so I screwed them together and pressed them into the opening where I had drilled out the tenon. Using straightedges I tapped that fitting with a small hammer until I had the custom made drill bit guide perpendicular to the spoke both ways. This brass fitting was used as a guide for the 15/64" drill bit to slide in and out. I got lucky because the ID of that nipple matched the dia. of the 15/64" drill bit. This guide made sure that I didn't wonder off even slightly with the hand held drill. Insuring that the hole was being drilled perfectly down through the centre of the spoke. Before drilling the hole I checked, and double checked and triple checked that the spoke was centred to the rim. This part was critical or the wheel would have a wobble. Then I measured the drill bit to match the length of the 1/4" portion of the peg and rapped masking tape around it to use as a depth gauge. After drilling the hole, I drove in the peg with a hammer until it was flush with the protruding portion of the rim Then I spun the rim 180 degrees and did the same to that opposite spoke. Insuring that the dial indicator was reading exactly the same once the spoke was free form the rim before drilling the hole.
I followed this procedure for all 10 spokes and after spinning the wheel the dial indicator barely moved .001th. Then I mig welded the end of the peg to the rim in 4 places. Letting it cool between each weld.
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Hey Edinmass : I'm curious how that Chassis Ear works. Do you get under the car and strap the receivers in various places, and then go for a drive, and then they record sounds, that you would play back later? Or maybe you watch the receiver for a flashing light associated with a particular transmitter?
After further reading it looks like the Steelman 60635-00 is only a replacement transmitter part for the 60635 . It looks like Amazon Canada is offering a 61082 that sells for $478 CA.
Is the tool you have a Steelman or something else? Those kind of numbers seem like the Stillman brand is the expensive one to me.
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2 hours ago, Highlander160 said:
Something is cooling since you state that it's a 1 time noise. Cpl hrs ok, all day not so much. Any noise in the drive system will "end" at the final point, the axle. I'll bet you feel it in the shifter and gas pedal too, yes? Having done such a thorough exam of usual suspects to find nothing, what else could shock the driveline with a clunk? Can you access the slide for the throwout brg easy enuff? If it were to stick a little the force could possibly send a shockwave down the line. You said all the mounts were good, so if the motor/trans can't move what can? Lots of force on the avg pressure plate. If the parts warm up a little then some clearance is gained. You can baby it to make it not happen as well. Raw thoughts...
I've given thought to your theory previously. Like lets say for instance I was using really light oil in my differential. 10W as an example, and lets say it was even low on oil. Lets also say my pinion backlash was way way too much. The symptoms might make sense then, The pinion and ring gear would be dry once the car sat for a period of time, and that excessive backlash could make a klunking noise, until the gears got covered in oil. However none of that is true in my case, plus you would hear a deafening humming noise from the rear end if that was the case. But something like that would explain the time frame, playing a major part in the equation.
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3 hours ago, Zimm63 said:
Dangling a kid through a hole in the floor could very well pinpoint the problem, as well as create a lifetime memory.
I agree. Any volunteers out there?
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15 hours ago, edinmass said:
With everything else checked and no apparent reason, I would bet a month’s wages it a brake hanging up and then releasing. Carefully disconnect the rear brake cables or rods, keeping only front brakes……..and road test the car for the noise. Lots of things like cross shafts, cables, adjusters, equalizers, there is a bunch of stuff that will cause a klunk when releasing. Also, do not set the emergency brake when you stop. Try this test first……leave the emergency brake off for a few drive cycles……….I have a tool called a chassis ear…………they make cheap ones and expensive ones…….but they work great for finding noises. Look it up. Good luck, Ed.
That chassis ear sounds like a good idea. Any particular make and model that you recommend? Looks like Steelman is the front runner. Actually it's the only one I could find without going down the internet rabbit hole. But the 60605 is $399 US. so that's around a million CA. Even at that, Amazon says it's not available here in Canada. But Amazon has the 60635-00 and it's $160 CA. So what's that, about 5 bucks US. lol! Anyways that's a huge difference in price between models. I would think since it's made in China that the 60635-00 is a cheap toy compared to the 60605. But then again maybe the 60605 is overkill for what I need. But it sounds like a better idea than dangling a kid through a hole in the floor.
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One of the things Edinmass suggested, I actually suspected might be the problem today. There is a round bar running from side to side in about the middle of the car that goes through holes in the frame. It's purpose is to connect the centre point of the mechanical brake rods and make everything move at once by rotating slightly when you apply the brakes. Hudson's method of providing that rotation to that bar, was to surround that rod with 3 round washer like pieces about 1/4" thick. 2 of them are bolted in a fixed place to the frame, but able to rotate. The third washer is mounted using a cam shaped bolt. This allows for adjustment. While wiggling the brake arms today for the umpteenth time, I noticed that bar had significant side motion. I convinced myself that the noise when I moved that round bar was similar to the noise I hear. After taking the cam action washer like roller out and cleaning it, I could see how it works. The end of the threaded bolt coming through has a portion without threads and two flats on it for a 1/4" wrench to fit on. ( see arrow in one of the pictures). By loosening the nut and rotating the bolt with a wrench, I took up the slack and I was hopeful that that was the culprit. Which of course still wouldn't explain why this noise only happens on start up. So I wasn't really surprised to still hear the noise on my test drive.
However I did learn something about the car, and I made an appropriate adjustment that needed to be done, and I checked off one of the things from my "rattle" list, that happen as I go over ruts in the road.
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13 minutes ago, timecapsule said:
I've inspected those areas very closely. Tapped everywhere with a hammer to see if there was any movement or even a difference in sound. But it's like I mentioned at the beginning. The feeling is exactly what you'd expect from a shifting differential. But even at that, why wouldn't it do it every time I take off from a stop sign. Even putting the pedal to the medal to try and make it happen has no effect once I'm driving for a few hundred feet or more. Quiet as a mouse until the car sits for some time.
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1 hour ago, paulrhd29nz said:
I’ve been reading over this for a while now. Everyone has given great ideas to help out Timecapsule. It has me stumped for sure. Timecapsule has explained himself very very well and clear.
my suggestion is a hidden under dash stereo with a big volume knob.I'm thinking you have the best suggestion so far Paul
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I disconnected the rear shock absorbers yesterday. Still have the "klunk"
Next I'm going to try disconnecting the rear brake linkage.
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1 hour ago, Laughing Coyote said:
Just my thought, but could any of these rivets be worn or broken and causing the center section of the differential to move?
I've inspected those areas very closely. Tapped everywhere with a hammer to see if there was any movement or even a difference in sound.
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I problem with the cheap generic tubes are the stems. I can't speak for wire wheels but for the wooden wheels the straight stem has to be quite long. Mine are close to 3 inches long and they are brass. I preferred the brass stem over the rubber because in the past I have had issues with the stem rubbing on the steel opening in the rim causing a leak right at the stem and of course a patch won't work there.
The brass stem diameter is significantly smaller than the hole in the rim. I didn't like the idea of rain water entering in there, so I got a piece of rubber hose about an inch long with matching diameter sizes of the stem and the rim opening to fill that void. Then I use that stem nut that comes with the tube to hold the rubber hose from coming out.
I recommend using tire flaps, particularly the 7" ones as opposed to the 5" ones. The tire flaps that Coker offer are surprisingly very substantial. The rubber overlaps to make the circle by about 8-10". They are actually so heavy duty I thought it might cause an issue with balance. But I didn't have that problem. But where the rubber overlaps and is volcanized together the thickness is almost an inch thick.
When installing the flaps and tubes in the tire and mounting the split rim, I suggest buying a 2 lb bag of flour and dumping it into a large sturdy garbage bag, and shaking each tube and flap in the bag individually so they are coated really well with flour. Also coat the inside of the tire with flour. That will make everything go much easier.
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6 minutes ago, mikewest said:
It was a very good performer. I drove it to Cambridge Ontario Canada from home(Rochester NY) following my friend in a 1933 Auburn 8 and had no problems running 55-60 mph on the highways. I had gone through the motor , had the rods fitted up close and a new water jacket on the side of the motor. It always ran cool when other cars were boiling or vapor locking. The vacuum tank never failed or acted up.
Great stuff! My Mother lived in Cambridge.
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2 minutes ago, mikewest said:
Another though, Look over the springs good for a broken center bolt allowing a spring to move.
Yep I thought about that too. I've looked them over as close as possible. I've also looked for any fresh steel wear markings on or around the leaf springs. I've inspected every inch under the car for any signs of anything that looks odd. All rivets on the frame are super tight.
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2 minutes ago, mikewest said:
This was my 31-8 It is a scarce car having the Murray body. It was called the Club sedan. all round lines, forward opening doors. I sold it when my girls were in school and I needed the $.
Very cool car!!
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4 minutes ago, mikewest said:
If my dear dad was alive , he would of had me remove the rear seat and stuck my head down in the hole while he drove to find the clunk. I remember him telling me a few times of him laying on the fender of a 30s car making adjustments while one of his boys at the garage drove. I had a 31 Hudson 8 but never had any problems with the Ujoints. Are they Spicer?/ I had a 31 Auburn 8 that had the old Chrysler type joints with the cross pin, two balls and a spring that werent the best setup. Take the seat out and get someone to drive you around. You most likely cant find it on the lift, because the weight and flex of the springs is most likely causing whatever is bad to make it knock. My 2 cents.
That's what kids are for,,,, to do the dirty work. hahaha!!
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On 11/9/2023 at 10:58 AM, mikewest said:
It might be a missing shock bushing . Sounds like something that has lots of slack.. Maybe a screwed up shackle .....
If you mean the rubber bushings on the arm that attaches the shock arm to the differential, yes I replaced all those rubber bushings when I got the car, as you can see in the picture. There really aren't any bushings inside the shock.
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On 11/4/2023 at 1:10 PM, auburnseeker said:
So I just got my tubes in. Super fast shipping, but that's where the good ends.
I broke the tire down, pulled out the old (new ) tube with offset stem. Opened the box and took a look, Another offset super long stem tube. They have the right item number applied most likely by someone at Coker on the box, but the label underneath clearly states offset. ARRGGHH! I just messaged them. Hopefully they atleast have the right tubes. So over $50 a tube with shipping and they didn't even send the right one! I can't fault whoever pulled and packed them as they did their job correctly. It's whoever tagged them that needs a good scolding or worse.
I had exactly the same problem with Coker. My copy of the purchase order clearly stated that I wanted the straight stem. With the correct part number on the purchase order. "They said no problem return them and we'll sent the correct ones free shipping" I'm on the far west coast of Canada and shipping is 10 working days, assuming they go through customs without a hitch or getting lost at customs. I told them that I had the car up in the air and all four wheels off the car and tires removed so waiting 10 plus days was a real inconvenience, and tied up shop space, and no fault of mine. I wanted them shipped overnight air. They wouldn't pick up the tab for that expense so I had to foot the shipping bill to get them the next day.
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This is a fascinating post. Please keep us updated. Especially with detailed pictures as you go along to show how you over came the problem.
What condition are the spoke tenons in, as they come through the inner rim? If they are worn, I have come up with a fool proof method of repair, assuming the rest of the spokes are in good shape and not decayed internally.
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8 minutes ago, lump said:
Dad's Model A truck also had a castle nut, cotter pin, and tapered axle ends, as I recall. Just offering thoughts on my one-time experience from over 50 years ago.
Good luck. Hope you find the solution.
I honestly don't mean to criticize, so I apologize if my thoughts come off that way, but I find it difficult to imagine how one could not tighten on the wheel appropriately with this set up. Tighten the nut as tight as possible, then if the cotter pin won't line up, tighten more until it slides through. That nut has to move a fair bit from one opening to the next. If it's too loose it's detectible right away.
But for discussion sake, lets say the castle nut wasn't tight enough. There would be a few detectible and obvious signs, I would think. Even with the car on the ground, you would be able to move the top of the wheel in and out. The other sign would be a badly damaged key and key way. The other sign would be quite a shimmy as you drove the car.
I designed and made a special wheel puller for getting the wheel off. I never found any pictures or illustrations as to what they used originally. I have read and heard that if you didn't have the appropriate tool you would remove the cotter pin, loosen the castle nut maybe half a turn, and drive the car slowly for a short distance while cranking the steering wheel, until the wheel worked it's way loose. That method seems a bit strange, because then you'd have to drive the car, into the shop or garage where you wanted to work on it, like that. I would think over time that would put significant wear marks on the tapered pieces (axle & hub).
Anyway, my point being that I have to use the wheel puller that I made to get the wheel off each time with significant effort, before the wheel breaks free from the axle. I routinely pull all my wheels off to check on brake lining wear and just as a routine check on all the brake components.
But I do appreciate your thoughts and experience.
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6 minutes ago, alsfarms said:
Good work. How about motor mounts and transmission mounts?
Al
The noise if from the back and as I mentioned it only happens once, when I first take off after the car has been sitting for at least 4 hours or so.
1930 Hudson pinion gear assembly setting round 2
in Technical
Posted · Edited by timecapsule (see edit history)
Thanks for that. Thanks for clearing up my terminology. on that 200 lbs. But can I do that to the pinion when it is not in the assembly? By putting it in a vise. I don't want to wait until I put it back in the car with the axles to do that. If I don't get the shim selection correct d have to pull it all out again.
I haven't disassembled the differential assembly so I can just barely make out the spider gears and axle gears while the two halfs are still together, but as for the surfaces of each gear as I turned them and inspecting each one with a strong light, I didn't see anything that looked suspicious.