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Locomobile

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  1. That's good that you're receptive to a different understanding of the subject. Typically this discussion ends with me getting beat over the head with someone's book. Why I bowed out immediately when you mentioned it. There is a book called ''American steam car pioneers' by John Bacon. In it, there are three? chapters, one is devoted to Whitney. In that chapter there is a long handwritten letter from Whitney to the author for his book. Most people that read it probably don't take the time to decipher Whitney's handwriting. In it is a mostly detailed account of the events that transpired. It is most likely the most accurate accounting. He even compliments the new Stanley B car regarding moving the engine to the rear axle, and goes on to write that someone else designed that for them to get around the Whitney patent. I can't make out the name, it looks like Riker, but I doubt that's who it is as he was working for Locomobile at that time, as I understand it. You mention these other carriage builders, there were about 70 different steam carriage makers at that time. To my knowledge Lombard never built steam carriages. they built the Lombard log hauler and also industrial appliances like Mason regulator. Locomobile after successfully suing the Stanley's went after any others building in interference of the Whitney patent, Milwaukee, Mobile etc. And why I think so many steam carriage makers folded up around 1902. There was only a few Whitney motorettes built here, after selling the rights to Walker and Barber, he couldn't build them, he did however license a company named "Browns" in England to build them. The Stanleys were not the only ones trying to cash in on Whitneys ideas, there was another man and an actually comical story, "Charles DP Gibson". While Whitney was building his first motorette, Gibson showed up one day at Whitney's Cruikshank machine shop with all sorts of crazy ideas about building his own steam car but needed a place to build it. Whitney accomodated him and he let him use a corner of his shop. Gibson curtained off the corner and didn't want anyone in there "stealing his ideas". After a month er so he came out from behind the curtain and said I don't think my car is going to run, and wanted to buy the Whitney Motorette. Whitney shot him a price of 25,000 and to his shock, Gibson bought it. Whitney helped him get the car home which was pretty far away. As soon as he got it there Gibson immediately disassembled it and started making drawings and applying for a patent. That wound up in a lawsuit that Whitney won as well. That very car was in the Melton collection and is now in England for sale for $350,000. Seeing as that car was the prototype for America's first true production vehicle the Locomobile of which they built 5000 beginning in 1899. I think it has very high importance in American Automobile history. Whitney worked for Amzio Barber for many years afterwards designing asphalt paving equipment.
  2. Wow, you guys are really adamant about continuing this. I'm not. I have information "citations" collected to share but I'm not spending all day posting screeenshots and typing it all out, only to debate every nuance. It's a waste of time, you won't be convinced of anything that challenges your understanding, and I don't want to cast aspersions on anyone's literary work or family name, for no other reason than to prove I'm right. Who cares? The information is available on the web if you wish to seek it out. Why I wrote ''I surrender'' it isn't worth arguing about, suffice to write, the Stanley's weren't as important to the early development of the steam car as the modern day hoopla and books would suggest. History is written by the victors. Have a nice day..
  3. It matters which book is read and which period newspaper articles, obituaries, motor review articles etc are used for study. I put stock in what was written in that period. I've learned one thing for sure in the many hours of research, there are many discrepancies in contemporary works on the subject of early steam cars, based on available period information. I'm not going to debate the subject again, I surrender, have a nice evening. It's a Brooks (maybe)😀 Ron
  4. Louis C Ross, yep. It is my understanding that the Stanleys called their car the wogglebug, not that it matters. Hate to tarnish any images, but the Stanley's were rather unscrupulous as the several copyright lawsuits would indicate. They had no trouble usurping another rivals thunder and borrowing other peoples ideas without permission. They had owned Eastman Kodak and were very familiar with taking pictures when no one was looking. Just for reference, you can find that same picture around labelled ''fred marriot'' Ron
  5. The Stanley's with Fred Marriot driving set a land speed record of 127 mph in 1906 in the ''wogglebug'' with tiller steering!
  6. It's difficult to make absolute statements about these later model steam touring cars. Regarding the Doble, Abner was continually changing aspects of the few builds, I think it was 47 in total? Of which about 15 survive? Henry Ford museum still has theirs, which I'm shocked, considering the way they've been parting that place out for more ''educational'' exhibit$. Fun factoid, Abner's rarely mentioned brother, Warren Doble who worked with Abner extensively invented and patented the rubber water pump impeller like outboard motors use. The real steam genius of that era was Bill Besler. Ron
  7. the English steam lorries fired from the top, like foden, etc. The passenger was the fireman 😀 Yeah, that seems odd that they'd use band brakes on the rear, and that's what makes me think it's earlier than and not heavy vehicle related. The big Dobles weighed about 6000 pounds.
  8. All of the Dobles I've seen have two compounds in pairs on the rear axle, essentially two high pressure cylinders and two low pressure cylinders. So essentially 8 torque pulses per rotation equal to a V16 ICE. Ron
  9. The guy that would know, Jim Crank is no longer with us sadly. I'd guess, if it's Doble it's a a very early one. Most of his surviving cars have White style flash boilers. The transaxle looks Doble-ish. However he was really into compound engines (like White) and that looks like a double simple like the Stanley's used. There were several onesy twosey companies that tried to build full size steam touring cars, so who knows? This looks more like a Brooks maybe. Another guy that is familiar with them is Ken H. Go to the SACA forum and make contact, he helped write the newly released Doble books by Jim Crank. Ron
  10. If it were explained what it is exactly, it would probably prompt more helpful response. Ron I found a picture of one, looks like any driveshaft shop should be able to do that.
  11. Be careful mixing bleach and cleaners together, some can result in very harmful fumes and reactions. I knew a guy that had a pressure washer cleaning business that was mixing all sort of stuff together to make is stronger and messed himself up pretty bad. Insomnia, chronic headaches etc. He was sorta messed up to begin with and that really did him in. Ron For instance: Mixing bleach and ammonia can be deadly. When combined, these two common household cleaners release toxic chloramine gas.
  12. Guys that run demo derby have brought me there fans and I shortened the spacer/hub in the lathe. It gives them a little more room. Would be cheaper than a new core. Ron
  13. Try the University of Michigan, they have a very extensive automotive archive (or did). Also the Detroit public Library. We Americans are real bad about preserving historical documents. UK has all of James Watt, Isambard Brunel and others' notes and drawings preserved. Ron Also, try the Detroit Historical Society. Best to call these places. There was another body builder called Briggs too if I'm not mistaken.
  14. Someone sold a kit to convert model T's to a farm tractor. My Dad said they were pretty common at one point like during the depression. Ron
  15. Yeah, I thought it was "Westley's'' too, but anymore I have a real bad case of CRS, so I wasn't about to contest it. Been using it for years, but be warned, refrain from using it on old convertible tops and upholstery. It will dissolve old stitching. Cotton? It's a very harsh cleaner. Way to test a detergent for strength, put some in your palm, squeeze it, if it gets warm, be careful with it. It has petroleum distillates. Learned that from a chemical salesman. Ron
  16. In the winter of 2013-14 the great lakes froze over completely, very rare occurrence. I believe I read there was no history of that ever happening. We had 84 inches of season total snow accumulation around Detroit. Yeah my parents lived in the south and they mentioned that winter of 36 many times too. That had to be really tough on people right during the depression. Ron
  17. Not sure what was difficult in understanding what i wrote. The point I was making is that we had colder winters in the south a hundred years ago. Responsible "Science" is not what these climatologists are practicing, this is knee jerk decision making on very small bits of data. We only have comprehensive weather data back a few hundred years, which is a very minuscule sampling of data in relation to the age of the planet. That's not responsible science. One of the great delusions of the self absorbed is that everything begins and ends in their lifetime. Sorry, this planet based on historical data will be here, doing just fine long after we're all gone. The fact is Google hides any information contrary to the knee jerk theories which prevents anyone from actually doing any real study of the "Climate change crisis", and proves we are being lied to, or at the very least is a disingenuous presentation of available information. It's there, it just takes some digging. Ron
  18. In 1936 It got so cold in the south that trees froze and split. It is the coldest winter in recorded history. Was that caused by Arctic warming too? I'm an inveterate researcher and part time know it all. One thing I've learned is Google is hardcore shadowbanning/ burying anything that contradicts the globalist narrative. Just yesterday, Facebook banned all Australian journalists and any postings of Australian news articles. Ron
  19. I've worked in garages and machine shops my whole life, never recall anyone throwing wrenches, if they had they would have been fired, it's highly unprofessional and dangerous, they could injure someone or damage property. No one wants to work with a loose cannon, and too, it's real easy to get a derogatory nickname, so people tend to behave themselves. If a man were that distraught he would most likely not be at work. It would make more sense if the guy owned the shop and he was ticked at an employee. I've seen that freakout a few times. (observer only) Ron After writing the above I was remembering some of the funny nicknames: This one guy named Clyde used to come in late all the time - High tide Clyde Another guy was lazy, they called him "Bunny". In the south there is a bread company called bunny bread, their motto is "the eight hour loaf" meaning oven to store i guess? "Bunny" stuck for him. Another guy they called "Windy", you can use your imagination on that one.
  20. Virtually all of family are/were mechanics all the way back to the model T (T-model). My Grandfather and his two brothers worked in a Garage, and they had a 15 year old kid that worked there too - my Dad. One of my Great Uncles - Grandfathers' brothers was completely blind. They worked on so many Model T's (T-models) and Model A's that the blind brother could work on them and do virtually anything with them. Not many mechanics would throw a temper tantrum as they usually enjoyed their work and tend to be a bit more professional despite all the tattered clothing and grease up to the elbows - and dirty jokes. If one did, he's probably not a very good mechanic. i.e. would likely be selling shoes etc. Ron
  21. He also did a commercial for Clark gasoline and at the end he says ''Ok, I'll try a gallon'' 😁 Ron
  22. Did anyone ever come up with a one way clutch to prevent kickback, like a ratchet device? I read somewhere that the Stutz Bearcat was really dangerous to handcrank. Ron
  23. The steamers would leave the pilot light going and a horse blanket draped over - how many of them burned. I read somewhere that insurance companies would not cover a garage that housed a steamer running on gasoline, kerosene only. Ron
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