[What is it? teens or 20's BIG CAR radiator]

Hard to tell without looking at in in person but it seems like German silver from the picture.  Take a look at this one from a 1913 Cole.  Mayo made these for Cole, Pierce Arrow, and a few other big higher end cars.  Measurements would also be useful.  

[I Thought Young Guys Don't Buy Prewar Cars.....]

9 hours ago, CarNucopia said:

I’ve got to disagree with you on this. I’ve been a Miata owner for 30+ years and have a few JDM cars. As such, I spend a lot of time talking to enthusiasts under age 30. Honestly, I'm astounded at the level of complexity in their projects. That age group loves to modify their cars and do things like engine swaps. The other thing that boggles my mind is the amount of money they spend on their builds. What keeps them out of "old" cars is a lack of interest.

 

I think there is a more important takeaway from this video. There is most certainly a small group of younger people who like prewar cars. If the AACA wants to engage them, they need to communicate through the platforms these folks frequent. The guy in the video has over 2M followers and over 200,000 people have watched this video. If the AACA has a YouTube channel, I can't find it.

 

 

This is spot on!!  I met a younger YouTuber(in his twenties) at the Old Car Festival last October.  Last year he got into prewar and learning about them and was just fascinated and his channel now has 40,000 subscribers and his videos get lots of views.   He heard about the Old Car Festival from someone that he was doing a car video on and on a whim he decided to attend.  He said his mind was blown!   I had the 1917 Cole Toursedan Convertible body by Springfield there and he asked if he could film it and do a video on it.  He did his own research (got a few facts wrong in the video) to narate and produce the video and gets lots of views and engagement.  He is not involved in any old car clubs, never been to Hershey, and probably doesnt even know what the AACA is.  Here it is the video that he did on the Cole and I was very impressed!!!  His YouTube channel probably raises more awareness about orphan and old cars to the younger generation than most of the traditional clubs do.  The clubs need to adapt and do it quickly, including maybe teaming up with some of these YouTube personalities.  

 

[Model A Ford prices]

I sold my 1931 Ford Model A Roadster back in July as I just didnt use it any longer.  It was time to let someone else enjoy it.  I purchased it back in 2017 and essentially sold it for about the same price as I bought it for back then.  As was mentioned, that is actually a loss due to inflation, however I did a lot of touring and such with it early on so got a lot of good value out of it.  

 

I did keep my Model T Speedster though as it is a fun car to hop in and drive around.

 

[1916 Cole V8 Touring model 860 in 25,000 Canadian $$ NOW SOLD]

I have talked to the family that owned this several times since their father passed away two years ago.  They posted a Facebook ad earlier this week and the 1916 Cole sold in less than thirty minutes with multiple interested parties.  Also in the Facebook ad the price was $25,000 USD and was posted almost a week ago.  I actually think this classified ad was a copied scam ad from the Facebook post and hence why it only had a couple of pictures and the person in the ad was not the family member.  The Facebook ad had many more pictures, eetc.  The car will be coming from Canada to Michigan but the buyer was not me.  I have six Cole’s so didn’t need for another one at this time.   Cole’s don’t come up for public sale and often and when they do they go quickly.   

[Why did they make convertible sedans?]

Here is the start of the convertible sedan.  Springfield body owned the patent on 'convertible sedan' in 1916/17, however they went bankrupt in 1917 and never delivered the bodies promised to automakers.  The convertible patent was sold off a few years later in bankruptcy court to the company that altered it and rebranded it to the California top and then it went from there.  Cole motor car company partnered with Springfield on their Toursedan and had big plans with lots of orders.  Due to the bankruptcy of Springfield body, it is speculated (all Cole records were lost in a flood during the 1960's) that Springfield only delivered 10 of these bodies to Cole and some to a few other auto manufacturers of the day.  They also made a Cole 2 door convertible coupe and there is one of those that Bill Harrah owned and it is still on display at the National Museum in Reno.  

 

This is the only surviving 4 door convertible sedan where all of windows slide into the body and the window frames and pillars fold down with a very finished look.   In this picture, one side is wide open.  It could go from a closed car to an open car in less than 5 minutes.   I have posted some of the ads here as well so you can see how they were marketing it which aligns to some of the earlier responses around luxury and high style.  

[The collector car world is in the midst of a generational transition]

15 hours ago, 1912Staver said:

I certainly did not say they are horrible. They have a good deal of simple charm.

But using one in anything but quite low volume, low speed traffic will probably not be a pleasurable experence.  I personally have no idea of why a young person would buy one. Except perhaps a older friend or familly member has exposed the younger person to the world of Model T's.

 I have a 23 year old son myself. A Model T is about the last car either he or any of his friends want.  I have a basket case 1914 T speedster that has at times been mocked up into something that looks like a more or less complete car. My son and his friends totally ignore it.

 A Skyline on the other hand would be a car any of them would latch on to except they are so blasted expensive. { most of them around here are the later 1980's - early 1990's versions }  Also the  right hand drive configuration of JDM cars is a pain in the butt that even a young person can recognise despite the towering reputation of Skylines in youth culture.

We can agree to disagree about the driving experience and what we are observing in the world around us.  My 22 year old son would drive this daily around town while in Michigan.  No issues ever and he loved every minute of it, and his friends loved it too.  Again, the stats from the Hagerty article shows growing interest and insurance policies for Model T's by young people, so we can either believe in what we 'feel' or we can go with the data.  

[The collector car world is in the midst of a generational transition]

16 hours ago, TTR said:

Inexpensive & simple start for a hot rod perhaps ?

The hagerty article is insurance quotes/policies for original model T's not turning them into Hot Rods.  

[The collector car world is in the midst of a generational transition]

3 minutes ago, 1912Staver said:

Number one problem with model T ownership; regardless of the age of the owner , is the very limited speed, very poor braking ability. Compared to modern , normal road traffic. Unless you live in a very quiet area , or are prepared to trailer the car to a quiet area, they are a not very enjoyable driving experence.

 Ideal for someone living in a rural small town or farming area. But if you are a city or even many suburbs then it may at times feel like every other driver on the road is trying to cut your life short. 

 Even in the semi rural area where I live { mix of hobby farms, working farms and some subdivisions traffic is usually very fast paced. { a fair clip over the speed limit is standard , and every day at least one or two pass me going way, way over the limit. } At least the tractors and farm wagons are quite large. No one in a pick up truck is going to try to muscle over on a 8 ton + tractor, but a little car like a T is a whole different matter. If you live well out in the country then why not. But for many of us a T just won't get used much, even if one is sitting in the garage.

That is not the point of my post or even the article.  The point is that there are a heck of a lot of younger people buying them up, it is irrelevant if they are good for usage today, because as you can see from Hagerty's data, there is growth in model T ownership all the way down to generation Z which is early 20's.  If a Model T is horrible for today's world then why are younger people buying them and getting insurance?????

[The collector car world is in the midst of a generational transition]

On 5/11/2023 at 7:05 PM, Crusty Trucker said:

Please at least read this article before commenting or criticizing either the content or it's author. My opinion is that the information presented here is factual and based on current knowledge and research. Sure, this just one metric, but it's a good indication of what's to come.  It’s a rare moment that speaks to the ongoing evolution of the market’s demographics, and it punctuates Gen X’s growing influence as a trend-maker.

 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/enthusiasts/the-collector-car-world-is-in-the-midst-of-a-generational-transition/ar-AA1b3XUD?ocid=mailsignout&li=BBnb7Kz

Too high level in the trends to drive a sensational title.  Read this article from the Hagerty magazine last month on the Model T.  Lots of interesting data in here as well as the growing amount of interest from Gen X and millennials which is contrary to perception.  Ever popular, the Model T keeps chugging along - Hagerty Media -  there is a shift but cars like the Model T are not just disappearing as the younger generation is starting to pick them up.  So if you take this data then 42% of Model T owners that are insured with Hagerty ate Gen X, Millennial, and Gen Z. Does that percentage match up to your car club membership?  The younger generations dont participate in the typical club models of today and the clubs have become a bit of an echo chamber of doom and gloom.  This year at the Greenfield Village Old Car festival it was the most younger people participating that I have ever seen there.  A long way to go, but times are a changing, but that doesnt mean that younger people are not getting into early cars, it just means that there is a shift on how people get their car support and what everyone is exposed to. 

 

 

[Old Car Festival at Greenfield Village in Dearborn today & tomorrow (covers up through 1932)]

It was a wonderful weekend. My friend and I brought two 1917 high powered  limo type cars to the event.  One a 1917 Packard Twin six Imperial Limo and the other, a V8 powered 1917 Cole Toursedan with a convertible body by Springfield.   
 

it was such a great time talking to people and driving the cars around the village.  

[Period images to relieve some of the stress]

22 minutes ago, coachJC said:

Here is a photo that may interest a person on this forum @kfle. This picture is of cars being aloud again to cross the border in Niagara Falls around 1916?.

Nice and thanks for sharing!  That is a 1915 Cole in either or a 4 or 6 cylinder.  If it was the 1915 V8 version it would have just an 8 on the radiator.

 

Kevin

[The market in pre-war cars]

8 hours ago, ericmac said:

Kevin, if you are willing to share, can you educate those of us who advertise exclusively in the traditional venues,  what do you see as the non-traditional ways of selling or acquiring a car?

I have seen that it really depends on the car that you are selling and what the audience might be.  I have already mentioned BAT, but you need to take 100+ pictures and provide a lot of info so if you are going to sell something there then you need something that is going to at least present well and you need to be willing to take risk as they don't like sellers to put a reserve on a car.  If you do put a reserve and it doesn't sell you cannot try to sell the car again on there.  There are also other car sale sites or even instagram and other socials that are not market places where you can drum up interest.  

 

For my Model A, I never listed it on any site as if you do you will be in a list of many model A's for people to choose from and it only reaches the same people.  I started taking my Model A to cars and coffee's and local Car shows that were not focused on any pre war.  Of course I was the only early car there and lots of people came to check the car out.  I didnt even have a for sale sign on it.  One couple said 'wow some day I would really like to have a car like this as it looks like a lot of fun'.  Of course I answered, well maybe we can work something out as I dont use the car much anymore, etc.  I also sent them a owning your first Model A type of book as well so they were not completely lost.  

 

Anyways, I don't sell a lot but those are some things that I have observed.  I used to be into Porche's and new American muscle but 8 years ago my wife and I saw our first prewar car somewhere and made an impulse buy.  I would have never known to look at the AACA, HCCA, Hemmings, etc. or even searched for an old pre war car.  When we list our cars in those places we are advertising to a diminished audience and hence downward pressure on prices.  Like I said it depends on the car, it's appeal, etc., but if you get it out to a new crowd of people then there is a chance that it makes an emotional connection.  

 

Take for example this past weekend at the Woodward Dream Cruise.  I am in Florida now and did not attend but in just about every picture summary from the cruise I saw Rusty Berg and his early REO.  Why? Because he was one of the few with an early car at the dream cruise and he was driving it around having fun.  I bet much of the people lining the streets have never seen that car or a car like it in action.  I also bet if Rusty wanted to he could have had many offers that day for the car because there were some people there who were thinking that it was amazing and sure looked like a lot of fun.  

[The market in pre-war cars]

11 hours ago, cxgvd said:

Mid sized Brass era cars are inexpensive relatively.

 

I looked up the auction that Kyle pointed out and it is similar to my Buick and the sale price was the same as my price.  Could have phoned me.  Just a few years back a dealer from Ohio sold a 1913 Buick mid size for $55K, now 40K.

 

The only reason I would like to sell my car is the buy a Curved Dash Olds, driver quality 25 years ago was 20 to 25K, today many available for 40K.  I think they are reasonable.  I have a one cylinder Cadillac and sure, it doesn't go to cruise night or the beach but there must be a dozen events like the New London, Lansing to Dearborn Run, Old Car Festival. Cape May, etc.

 

I believe in serendipity. Someday somewhere and someone will work it out

 

Regards, Gary

 

 

I see that one month ago a curved dash Olds sold for $56,000 + 5% buyers premium.  1904 Oldsmobile Model 6C Curved Dash for sale on BaT Auctions - sold for $56,000 on July 21, 2023 (Lot #114,100) | Bring a Trailer

 

I wish you well in acquiring and I myself would like to get an early one or two cylinder car.  

[The market in pre-war cars]

10 hours ago, Dr B said:

I want to reiterate what @Kfle said.  I don't know how many of you follow BAT (I look at it occasionally). There are hundreds of ongoing auctions daily. Yes, many are modern cars especially Porsches, but there are also many driver and better quality collector cars.  This is a HUGH market and gets a lot of eyeballs. I have bid on a few cars.

 

 I believe @Kfle is absolutely correct, we are in a (great) echo chamber and not necessarily the best target audience to sell collector cars to younger or new collectors.

 

Robert

Here is another one that ends in 18 hours and it will be interesting to see what it goes for.  1910 Buick that was restored in 1974, doesnt run, and the auction listing said that it will need a "mechanical refurbishment".  Currently at $11k and most of the action on BAT happens in the last hour.  1910 Buick Model 10 Touring for sale on BaT Auctions - ending August 24 (Lot #118,002) | Bring a Trailer.  

 

As Ed pointed out, overall Brass did quite well in the Pebble auctions and seems to surprisingly do well on BAT and other non typical venues where exposure is greater.   

[The market in pre-war cars]

7 hours ago, cxgvd said:

Personally, I recently put my 1913 mid sized Buick for sale on these pages for what I considered was a quick sale price.  Zero response.  I've owned it 25 years, well sorted dependable driver and nothing.  I deleted the ad and am keeping the driver quality Buick.

 

A friend with many vehicles thinks the market is weak for brass era cars, and is going to CCCA types.

 

Also a local restoration shop collected $200K to restore a pre war car and the owner passed away.  The shop is helping? the estate and have offered the car around locally for $50.  I think they should give to RM/Sotheby's to sell.

 

Good news is, fill your boots with driver quality and have fun.

 

Regards, Gary

Whats a quick sale price considered to be on a 1913 Buick?  a 1912 driver quality just sold on Bring a Trailer a few weeks ago for $35,500 + add the 5% buyers premium.  One thing we all need to remember is that younger people dont buy things through the traditional forums (I.e. AACA forum classified, HCCA classifieds, facebook, etc.).  Bring a Trailer had a 1912 Oakland that was mostly all original but in fairly rough shape with duct tape on the seats, water leaking heavily from the radiator, etc. for about $20k.  I sold my 1931 driver quality Model A Deluxe Roadster, restored in the 1990's for $27k about 6 weeks ago.  I didnt use the traditional places where you would typically sell a Model A and I found a couple that fell in love with it and it was their first pre war car.  All it takes for driver quality cars is for someone to fall in love with it and have an emotional connection to it.  In order to do that you have to get it seen outside of the traditional selling avenues where the only people that will see it are the people that are downsizing their own collections and have been through their own horror story restorations.  

 

Times are changing and yes, prices will come down and level out but I have not really seen as big as a drop in the pre 1916 cars as I have the late 20's and 30's cars.  

[Aftermarket overdrive transmission for pre-war GM cars?]

Mitchell does make an overdrive for non Ford Model A's.  It is the Mitchell 1000 and I used to have one in my 1922 Maxwell.  Ed brings up a lot of good points and things to consider.  In my Maxwell, I maybe got a top end of 5 mph more, but the true benefit was having a cruising speed that had lower strain on the engine and it made for a more comfortable experience while touring.  I wouldnt expect highway cruising for any old car as not only do you have the higher speeds, but typically you have people weaving in and out of traffic and old cars dont work well with that kind of driving.

 

Here is the Mitchell overdrive.  Mitchell Model 1000 | Mitchell Overdrive Manufacturing (mitchelloverdrives.com)

 

 

[Period images to relieve some of the stress]

Camouflage painted Cole race car in 1918.   

[Collector-car market continues fall from 2021 heights (Don't kill the messenger if you disagree)]

3 hours ago, 1912Staver said:

just what does one do with a 1918 or so Buick , Cole, Cadillac or anything else in the pre 1925 catagory ?

You just get in the car and go for a drive!  No club or formal tour needed, just take the day and drive.  If I cant fix it on the side of the road then that is what Hagerty road side assistance is for.  I am not saying there is not a place for clubs, but I still reiterate my point that you cant correlate club membership to interest in pre war cars or even value.  I still work, cant make time for club meetings and weekday morning coffees, and dont have time for a 3 day tour during the weekdays, yet I still have lots of connections and can find what I need when necessary.  There are lots of social media places that can be utilized for pre war car support.  

 

[Collector-car market continues fall from 2021 heights (Don't kill the messenger if you disagree)]

22 hours ago, 1912Staver said:

I think pre war cars in general may be entering a death spiral. Not the better Brass cars, or the better  true Classics { if you are over 15 years old and you have have to ask , you will probably never know }. But the vast majority of bread and butter , pre war cars. I am only going by the membership in my local early car Vintage Car Club chapter, but it's looking very  " gray " , and the membership seems to dwindle with each passing year. A few under 40 but very few. And no where enough new people of any age to grow the membership. Almost all those earlier cars are going to need new owners / caretakers over the next 20 years or so. I just don't see nearly enough people born in the 1970's or later getting interested enough to take over ownership of the existing stock of pre war cars.

Declining club memberships have been discussed in other threads, but I truly believe that there is no correlation between club membership numbers and prewar car ownership.  Younger generations do not like the car clubs as it is a different way of thinking.  Car clubs are very outdated in how they work and the bureaucracy.  I own 10 prewar cars including a few full classics and cars that would qualify for several different clubs.  I am only a member of the HCCA because I do enjoy some of the brass tours with a couple of my cars, but I find very little value and time in the other clubs and do not belong to any 'local' clubs.  I also know several other younger newer owners of prewar cars that are not interesting in joining clubs.   I get together with a group of early car owners for a 1/2 day tour once a month, no formal planning, no membership fees, no newsletters, no hassle.  Just meet up at a starting point, pick where we are going, and drive!  We text with each other and help each other out in between.  I know quite a few people wanting early cars who are under 30 but you will not run across them in traditional 'old car' clubs, websites, etc.  

[Florida Car Museum Evicted by State College With Only Few Weeks’ Notice]

11 minutes ago, Steve_Mack_CT said:

Anyone following this thread is getting an education on some business models in our hobby.  

Interesting what collective knowledge can bring to light.  One can draw their own conclusions about Godbey and New College, but sometimes the story needs to evolve to see it all.  I suspect this is a fairly well followed thread and maybe beneficial to some.

Updated information from the local Sarasota market news.  It was a month to month lease and had nothing to do with politics at all like the big national media implied.  They are going to utilize the space for college offices from other buildings being torn down and retrofitted due a record size enrollment.  Eventually will be torn down and turned into an athletic gym.  

[Florida Car Museum Evicted by State College With Only Few Weeks’ Notice]

5 hours ago, John Bloom said:

If they were there before the college, are a responsible tenant, have a history of paying the rent on time and aren't a pain in the ass to the neighbors and the college and ownership... and were told with no warning "get out in two weeks"... that is shameful.

 

However, even though the article doesn't give any insight about the specifics, something tells me it isn't as tidy as my scenario above.  There is likely another side to this story.  We just don't have that piece of the puzzle.  I hate to see a museum of classic cars treated shabbily, but I'll withhold judgement a bit here.  My gut tells me that there are some facts missing from the equation.  

 

OK, editing here.  I only read the first article, the second one gave a couple more facts.  So initially they were told in May about leaving.  That tells me a couple things......They don't have a lease?  They are at the end of their lease?  They are "month to month".  All of that information is important.  I'm on the museum's side here, but the museum leadership needs to know what their security in their space is and have plans if they choose to leave or the lease isn't renewed.  

 

It would be interesting to get the other side of the story.  perhaps it would show important details that give a clearer picture. Or not...

 

I live in the area and the media is trying to make this out as having political undertones.  I to am guessing that this was a very favorable month to month lease at low cost.  The property is extremely prime sitting right off of the main road going in and out of downtown Sarasota.  The building itself in my opinion is becoming dilapidated and really doesnt look like some of the pictures that are in the press.  I was there three months ago for a car show and the front columns were rotted and a real lack of maintenance.  Looked to me like they were putting fresh paint over issues to try and keep it presentable.  These are all indications that the rent that was being paid was not enough to sustain that building, so I bet the college saw that prime piece of land and thought a huge opportunity to tear down the building and build their athletic facility in a prime location.  All colleges are looking for ways to drive revenue so they are either reusing all of this land that has been donated to them over time for something that drives revenue or selling it off.  The museum is just a causality and it is super important to have a succession plan in place for when something can happen such as this.  

 

Here are some more recent pictures.  (Vintage motors is where they sell old cars, so it is not just a pure museum any longer as they opened a sales show room several years ago)

 

 

Here is a picture from a news media article which is an extremely old picture and it doesnt look like this any longer.  

 

 

Here is a picture inside the museum where you can see the ceiling tiles with water damage.

 

 

You can see the rot in the porch roof in this picture and I doubt they would hold cars on top like in the old days. 

 

 

Overall, something needed to be done with the museum and I really hope they find a new home.  I just got an alert from a car show group in the area and the car show will continue there this Saturday.  Business as usual.

 

 

[A sight that you will rarely see - I moved my Cole cars to a new place]

10 hours ago, Dandy Dave said:

I get out to Michigan from time to time. I may just take you up on that offer. 🙂

Just let me know when, happy to share the Coles!

[A sight that you will rarely see - I moved my Cole cars to a new place]

1 hour ago, 58L-Y8 said:

Great cars need great conservators, kfle you are doing the Cole marque proud!   Here's a better look at that mid-1940's Indianapolis outing. 

That cleaned up nicely and thanks for doing that!  Also, here is the 1919 Cole Roadster that is chopped off at the front of the picture.  I wish I owned it!  In the Roadster are Joe Cole and Helen Cole which are the grand kids of JJ Cole.  

 

 

[A sight that you will rarely see - I moved my Cole cars to a new place]

4 minutes ago, Lee H said:

Kfle, may I ask you a question? In the early 1970s, my father was a block mason in Indianapolis, and I was a little kid carrying hod for him. Anyway, he had a job downtown (which I believe was at the Cole factory, but I can’t be sure…I remember the adjacent interstate was under construction), and he took me to one of the floors where there were several antique cars, and I can still remember the big “COLE” on at least one of the radiators.

 

Sadly, my dad is no longer here to ask, but do you know any stories that might confirm my memory of Cole cars that were still inside the factory at such a late date? Thanks in advance…I’ve always wondered.

 

Lee 

Yes, that is a true story.  The surviving Cole family member over the years retained ownership of the Cole Factory building in Indianapolis until about 1990 or so when it went to Marion County and became the Jail annex.  The Cole family cars plus a few others were stored in the basement of the factory building and maintained and cared for by the family members and is why they were preserved so well.  Here are a few pictures and news articles from the years about the Cole cars in the factory building basement.  

 

 

 

[A sight that you will rarely see - I moved my Cole cars to a new place]

9 hours ago, DFeeney said:

Be proud of your collection,  Future generations will enjoy them as much as you do now.

Agreed.  I am very proud of the collection and get the Coles out to share with others when I can.  I view myself as a caretaker of them to continue to preserve the history for the future.