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Posts posted by kfle

  1. 13 hours ago, John_S_in_Penna said:

    Thank you for sharing this interesting look into history.


    I see from the letters that they were addressed

    to Mr. Cole at Cole Incorporated.  That tells us

    that the company, or a similar one, still existed in 1941,

    long after Cole stopped making cars.  


    What was the company doing in 1941?

    How long did it last?  Was it eventually subsumed

    into another company?

    There is a lot of history here that is not really out there in the public domain.  JJ Cole died in 1925 of heart disease shortly after he liquidated the company.  The Cole Motor Car company was still profitable when it was liquidated in late 1924.  JJ Cole Jr. started a new Cole incorporated and sold parts and service until about 1932.  He retained ownership of the Cole factory building and real estate.  They almost revived the Cole Motor Car company in the 1930's but decided against it for various reasons.  JJ Cole Jr. passed away in the early 1950's from heart disease as well and Joe Cole took over the real estate, collection, etc.   The Cole family rented out the factory building and their real estate to other companies until about 1990 when it was sold off to the county in Indiana and became the county jail annex.  So essentially, the Cole incorporated was a company that was primarily real estate.  They still did have quite a bit of left over Cole parts and archives as well, however in the early 1970's there was a big flood of the river by the factory and the basement was flooded ruining all of the parts and documents so they were destroyed.  The Cole family had six Cole Motor Cars in the basement of the factory that they maintained and kept in good condition.  They started selling them off in the late 1980's when they left the factory building.  

    1960IndyStar Article.jpg

    Helen Maintaining cars.JPG

    Our Cole Cars in Factory Basement.JPG


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  2. 1 hour ago, Graham Man said:

    1913-14 Cole?  Hope it was saved


    1913-1914 Cole 4-Door Touring Car 1 | Photographed at the US… | Flickr


    A guy by me had a steam engine collection they wanted them for the "war scrap drive" he took out a loan on the engines.  When the scrap guys showed up he told them they could have them, if they paid off the loan, needless to say they left without the steam engines.  This was the auction about 15 years ago.


    Pictures of some REAL Case Iron - Yesterday's Tractors

    That is a 1913 Series 9 Cole and it is still around, though buried deep in a large collection so not seen in years by the public.

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  3. 4 hours ago, edinmass said:

    The question is......is the car in your roster? Or was it shot out of a cannon during WWII? 



    My father would buy Ford T's in the mid 30's for 2 dollars if they ran and had good tires........otherwise only a dollar if they ran and had flat tires. That is what things were worth when no one was working. 

    There are only two Cole Series 10's that are known to survive today and they are both in the state of Washington.  They cannot be traced to this car based on what is known by the current owners but who knows.  

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  4. 8 minutes ago, edinmass said:

    $125.00 was a HUGE number for that car in 1941. We had family members buying running Stanley's for 15 bucks, and a fantastic 1913 Cadillac for 25 dollars. Whoever paid the 125?...........please tell them I will give them ten times their investment today........in cash!


    That was a huge price for sure and probably why it wasnt purchased.  There is no record of the Cole family buying this car at the time.  I imagine they guy who found it was playing up the price based on trying to sell it to the Cole family thinking they would pay more with an auto with from their namesake.  

  5. I was looking through my Cole history materials and I ran across this 'Barn Find' in 1941.  JJ Cole Jr., son of the founder of the Cole Motor Car Company, was trying to find Cole Motor Cars that were surviving in the early 1940's.  Here is a letter from someone who was searching for these cars on behalf of JJ Cole Jr. showing a find of a 1914 Cole Series 10.  Included is also a picture of the Cole in the barn as well as the owner of the Cole.  The third document is a follow up letter to JJ Cole Jr. with more information and a blow up of the small picture.  


    It is really interesting history about searching for old cars back then, especially during WW II.  A.H. Deeken seemed like an early Wayne Carini!




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  6. 1 minute ago, John_S_in_Penna said:

    Our economy is fine for graduates with needed

    degrees.  My cousin just graduated and got a job

    with a $68,000 starting salary.  His girlfriend has a

    similar starting salary.   I hope he'll be thrifty so he'll

    have resources years down the road.


    But the survey says that 22% of "Generation Z" people

    already own a classic car.  That's absurd!  Even here

    in antique-car territory, that number is not reached.

    Either the surveyor, or the respondents, didn't know

    what a classic car was.  Figure that the press doesn't

    know much about our hobby!

    It says 90s and early 2000s. So it pushes beyond the definition of the aaca guidelines but to younger people that is a ‘classic’ to them.   A 2003 small Japanese drift car is an enthusiast car and the interest in the car hobby has to start somewhere. its the car culture that needs to start when your younger and typically its the taste and types of cars that change over the years.  

    I know a 17 year old that bought an 92 Jeep and brings it to the local weekly car cruise.  He has a lot of pride in that car.  

  7. I thought the Millennials and Gen Z don't care about driving and the car hobby was going away?  :)  Actual data.  




    Attitudes toward driving by generation (from Hagerty 2020 Why Driving Matters survey)


    "It's a common assumption that Millennials and members of Generation Z are less interested in cars than previous generations. But according to Hagerty survey results released last week, these younger drivers are more likely—not less—to want to own a classic car than their parents or grandparents.

    Of the 10,000 United States drivers surveyed, Gen Z and Millennials were most likely to report currently owning a collectible or classic car. One quarter of Millennials surveyed said they owned a classic car, as did 22% of Gen Zers surveyed. They were followed by Gen X (19%), Baby Boomers (13%), and the so-called Silent Generation (11%).


    In addition, members of the Gen Z and Millennial generations who don't already own a classic car expressed more interest in owning one than older generations. Of the Millennials surveyed, 57% expressed interest in owning a classic car, and so did 53% of the Gen Zers surveyed. About half of Gen Xers (49%) also showed interest in classic cars, while numbers for Boomers (33%) and the Silent Generation (19%) were much lower.


    "Much of the 'death of driving' handwringing by the media in the wake of the Great Recession was based on data showing younger generations were getting their licenses later, buying their first vehicles later, and buying fewer vehicles compared to previous generations at the same age. That conflated buying power with demand," Ryan Tandler, the survey lead, said in a statement. "The recession hit younger generations harder and delayed a host of major purchases and life milestones."

    Millennials are now catching up and, as the nation's largest generation, they could become the collector-car hobby's biggest group in the near future, Hagerty predicts. That is, if the economic fallout from the global coronavirus pandemic doesn't put them right back where they were a decade ago."

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  8. Welcome and glad you found that wonderful Haynes and the forum.  I am in my 40's as well and I am into pre war cars as well.  I am still learning and not an expert by any means, but always happy to help out others.  I look forward to seeing your progress and meeting others.



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  9. On 9/16/2020 at 6:03 PM, edinmass said:

    Interesting car.......I would think it would hit 65-75 easy, though the estimate is much lower. Not often I predict the auction number is low............nice honest car.

    Well it sold for $43,000.  Just over the high end of the estimate.  



  10. 44 minutes ago, Peter Gariepy said:


    I started this threat to start the first step.


    I actually don't necessarily agree the doom and gloom of my own headline "The ultimate demise of the Antique Automobile" but I do believe that times are changing. We need to prepare for that change. 

    Fast forward twenty years.   Gas stations will be scarce. The vast majority of cars on the roads will be electric. Don't take my word for it, looks at the manufacturers own business plans and industry forecasts. The next generation or two of "car guys" (and gals) will be in a completely different landscape.  We can stick our heads in the sand and ignore it, or we as an organization and hobby can prepare.


    It's worth a conversation.


    “The first step in solving any problem is recognizing there is one.”

    Electric cars will become more prevalent and I am well aware of that as I work in the high tech industry.  Cars are one thing, but there are lots of other machines that work on gas such boats, lawn equipment, generators, etc.  In fact, I would be willing to bet that the number of the engines in the categories that I just mentioned outnumber the cars in the world.  Yes you can get electric lawn mowers, but what about a generator?  Also, with Boats, where is the groundswell of electric boats?  For example in West Michigan gas stations all over have Rec Fuel or 100% pure gas with no ethanol.  It is going to be a long time before there is no gas at all and we will see if that day truly comes.  It absolutely may become more expensive for gas as it could be a specialty item and we will have to adapt, but it is not the sky is falling scenario.

  11. 1 hour ago, Peter Gariepy said:



    1. Your comment doesn't scale. Just because a few small cars tours have young people attend doesn't mean it reflects the entire hobby.

    2. Car enthusiast first gravitate to the cars they own and can drive, some as daily drivers.  Then they venture out to other cars. (IMHO)

    3. The falling number of members in the HCCA (and other car clubs), and the lack of horseless carriages at the car shows I attend contradicts your statement.

    4. It's not an issue of "like". It's an issue of wanting to own, restore, maintain and drive. I'd speculate that you talk to any car guy under 50 and ask them if they want to own a T (or virtually any pre-war car) and the answer is no.  A perception of drivability, lack of parts, knowledge to maintain, access to knowledgeable mechanics, initial cost, etc. make it prohibitive as well.

    5. Agreed. Gasoline will be around. But demand will be low, and so will the corresponding supply.

    I wasn't going to get jump into this thread of the rehashed age old debate, but since you asked with your number 4 point I will give you an answer.


    I am in my 40's, hence under the age of 50 and I got rid of all of my newer cars to exclusively buy pre 1932 cars.  I didn't grow up in a car family, had no exposure to old cars, etc.  When I was about age 30 I got a Challenger SRT launch edition when it came out.  Loved the speed and doing things with it.  Then I moved on to a new Porsche, and then in 2016 I purchased a Maserati.  Had fun hanging out with others, the speed, etc. etc.  About 4 years ago, My daughter who was 19 at the time decided that she wanted a Volkswagen Camper bus.  We went to some places to look at some and she purchased a 1978 Volkswagen Westfalia and to this day it is her daily driver.  At the place where she purchased it, they had a wonderful 1931 Model A roadster which my wife and I fell in love with.  We purchased it the next day and I have been in love with old cars ever since.  I actually sold off my newer cars and now own several early cars.  Also, my 20 year old son only likes early cars and drives the Model A, Model T, and the Cole's all around and at least 4 times per week.  He is also now one of the driving instructors at the Gilmore Car Museum Model T driving school, which is always sold out and probably 50% of the participants are under the 40's age range.  


    Club membership is not an indicator of old car ownership.  For example, I belong to the Model A club (MARC) however I rarely go to a meeting or tour because I am very busy with my job.  Also, many of these clubs hold activities and lunches during the week which is great for the retired set though not for people under 50.  I know several other people in my area that own pre war cars and we just meet up somewhere or enjoy hanging out and driving them together. I most likely will not renew my MARC membership.  The only reason I have an AACA club membership is for the Hershey swap meet and I have never been to or participated in an AACA activity outside of Hershey.  


    Just this weekend I was texting with another 40 something old that owns a 1920's car sharing technical and how to information.  In the 'old days', getting technical help would have been to talk to the local car club expert and was a value of joining the club.  These days, there is so many more avenues to get help and the communication is real time.  


    As far as saying the old stuff is not at the local car shows anymore is also misleading.  It is a factor of time and prioritization.  Do I really want to bring my 1913 car to the local car show and sit in the sun for 4 hours while a bunch of people walk around and touch things?  Also with the cars and coffee car shows of today there are so many more cars available so how can you compare today to 30 years ago?  30 years ago, you essentially had pre war, 50s cars, and muscle cars so of course as a percentage of the car show crowd you were going to have more brass era.  Today you have all of those, plus the 70s' cars, 80's cars, and even the 90's.  Also you have the JDM's and Tuners.  There is so much more out there that people can collect.  


    Things are changing for sure and the biggest issue that I see is the disposable income that is available to the younger generation but I see a much greater interest from the younger people in the older cars than you may thing.  Here is a bonus picture of my 20 year old son cleaning the engine on the Model T in preparation for changing the head gasket.  




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  12. 1 hour ago, AHa said:

    You can buy authentic reproduction Hartfords from Packard Twin Six. They start at $250 ea. I believe. This is certainly a reasonable price, especially when you consider buying replacement parts. For a restored car, this is ideal. I'm looking for originals.


    It is interesting to note only about a third of early race cars used shocks, maybe less than that, in spite of the spring recoil.

    There are two originals  for sale on the HCCA classifieds.  https://hcca.org/classifieds.php?parts  You will have to scroll down to find them. They say original but I have no info on them, just saw them the other day.  

  13. 5 hours ago, PFindlay said:

    Thanks, that's a very modern looking car for 1910.   It's interesting to see that the front door and panel could easily be removed - just in case I guess.


    In Canada, CCM also had foredoor models in their Russell-Knight for 1910.  So I guess we'll have to share the "first in North America" bragging rights. 



    There were so many car manufacturers at the time and not the best record keeping with timing so there are typically several car companies that have a similar creation at the same time.  I think whole point about the door being able to be removed had to do with style.  There were many people at the time who probably didnt want to have a solid door on the front.  

  14. Here is the latest update on the 1920 Cole Aero 8 Tourster.  After the ethanol gas that was left in the tank and vacuum tank for over 7 years did a horrible number on the fuel system, I just completed the rebuild of the vacuum tank and getting everything cleaned out.  Today we reinstalled the vacuum tank, primed the engine, and then started the car.  The fuel system is now working again so it was time for a test drive on the property.  My son drove it around for a little bit and we noticed some new things that we need to work on:


    1. The carb needs some adjustment 

    2. The spark advance and timing need a bit of adjustment

    3. The amp meter is showing a discharge as the engine is running so we need to test the output of the generator to see if it is producing any or enough electricity to replenish the battery


    We are making progress and the goal is to make this Cole a great driver.  I have included a few videos of Ben driving around the Cole and then one of the engine running after the vacuum tank rebuild.  





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  15. 8 hours ago, PFindlay said:

    Was Cole the first American auto maker to have "foredoors" and was that in 1910?

    Yes according to the information I have seen as well as Cole was advertising it as such, including even an ad in 1923.  Here is the Cole and it actually came out in late 1909 though many considered it a '1910 model year' even though Cole didn't use model years.  Also the motor age add mentioning some of their firsts.   Cole was also the first auto company to use Firestone demountable rims.  JJ Cole and Harvey Firestone were friends and Cole used Firestone demountable rims on their first autos and in return Harvey purchased the first 25 Cole's to infuse some capital into Cole's auto manufacturing.  As there are so few surviving Coles, many of these accomplishments are unknown today.  





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  16. 7 hours ago, George Cole said:


    As do Cole cars.  But they're direct drive from the transmission, not a pto shaft drive.  Compared to everything else on Ed's 'new' White car, that pto shaft doesn't look over-engineered and sufficiently robust to drive a vintage tow truck mechanical gear drive or hydraulic pump.  But obviously looks can be deceiving as apparently it was.

    My 13 Cole has The tire pump in the engine compartment.  It was a Taylor Noil automatic tire pump.  You engage the big gear and it moves the flapper to create air.  It’s all the way to the right in the pictures.  



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  17. 1 hour ago, George Cole said:


    Same thing with the Cole open touring cars of that vintage.  Very heavy duty frame and suspension, coupled with a 346 cu in V8.  Once they became long in the tooth, people would cut the bodies off behind the front seat and mount a wrecker body.  That saved at least a few of them from the WWII scrap metal drives.  There's several that exist today which are missing their rear body sections, or had to have them recreated for restoration.

    Here you go George.  Distinctive front end of a Cole, though wrong headlights.  They were way overbuilt with the frame and components underneath.  Getting turned into trucks definitely impacted the survivor rates of Coles.  



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