Str8-8-Dave

I've used R&L with good luck...

So I have used both castor/alcohol (DOT 3,4) and Dot 5 silicone in cars, trailers and motorcycles. Dot 3 is fine for most applications short of competition where brakes get really hot, then Dot 4 is a better choice or if you are going GP racing silicone will definitely keep you off the boil as long as it is "fresh and clean". Yes- the castor/alcohol base does attract moisture over time and will rust your steel brake lines and cast iron cylinder components or corrode aluminum parts like pistons if not maintained. Boat trailers with surge hydraulic brakes are notorious for rust problems because brakes get dunked at the launch ramp. But in a different aspect castor/alcohol does better with moisture than silicone because the alcohol keeps the moisture suspended pretty evenly over the entire system, you don't wind up with condensed water droplets in low points in the system next to where all the heat comes into play, in the wheel cylinders or calipers where they are close to where kinetic energy is being converted to heat energy bringing your baby to a halt. "Fresh and clean" silicone based fluids WILL NOT absorb moisture but also WILL NOT prevent moisture from getting into the hydraulic system where instead of distributing the moisture evenly throughout the system it produces droplets of water that usually collect into slugs of water which wind up guess where- the hottest components in the system are, and will kill braking ability if it boils off as steam. Castor/alcohol based fluid AND silicone based fluid in pure liquid state are not theoretically compressible with or without condensed droplets of water as long as fluid temps stay below boiling temperature. Steam however, generated by slugs of water that finds it's way to a wheel cylinder, is a gas and it is VERY compressible rendering a hydraulic brake system useless when the going gets hot. So, bottom line, both have unique problems with H2O, castor/alcohol keeps the moisture suspended but the alcohol, which bonds well with both castor oil and water, by nature, attracts moisture but then keeps the moisture suspended in the mixture. It is a problem for rust and if it is really loaded with water degrades hydraulic performance. Silicone doesn't absorb moisture like alcohol does but silicone doesn't keep moisture out of the system either and as water accumulates the droplets find their way to the hottest part of the system and when the water boils you have no brakes. If you decide to change a system originally castor/alcohol fluid to Dot 5 silicone you also need to do a meticulous job of purging the castor/alcohol fluid because guess what else Dot 5 silicone fluid won't absorb or mix with- castor/alcohol solutions... Either type of fluid therefore requires routine replacement, preferably on a regular basis, like after every race for a GP car running silicone, like every 2 years for us mortals who chauffer kids to soccer or on weekends an old warrior to a car cruise. If you want to keep your expensive ABS system on your every day car working and prevent a warranty headache you should have the dealer change the brake fluid once every 2 years to prevent rust in the very expensive ABS pump and valve components which are particularly sensitive to rust and very likely run with castor/alcohol based fluids, not many OEM's recommend silicone, many will void any warranty on brake systems if they find it in your brake system. Approaches I have thought of for prevention of rust in a system is use of stainless steel brake lines and, where possible, brake cylinder components. That could be useful for alcohol/castor fluid if you are particularly opposed to just changing brake fluid every couple of years. I have spent my time devising easier ways to change fluid rather than figuring out how to incorporate stainless items, using good brake bleeding equipment makes changing fluid pretty quick and easy and is an effective way to prevent rust. PS: I don't worry too much about all this brake fluid stuff for the old car, my 1931 Buick 8-66S has all mechanical brakes!

So to tie a ribbon around this topic I did get information I was seeking from Dave Dunton who has been my pen-pal on the restoration of my 1931 8-66S for the past 3 years. Dave generously removed the seat back from his rumble lid, turned it over and patiently fielded numerous requests for pictures and measurements. Below is a sampling of what I got. In pictures that include the side rails you will note the side rails are curved to fit the rumble lid woodwork and dodge over hinges and hinge attachment hardware, namely a 3/8 stud with a square nut the side rail has to fit over. The side rails measure 4" wide. I'm sure they steam bent ash lumber to produce the side rails and they also finger joined the upper and lower sections of the side rails, something I could not reproduce. Instead I made a template of the edge profile of the side rail and will trace the outline onto 1" thick ash lumber then saw 4 pieces for each side rail and laminate the 1" thick pieces together to get a 4" wide side rail curved to fit the rumble lid like the originals did, just without the finger joint and steam bending. I did finally have to invest in a band saw for this project. The project will appear in detail on my "Me and MY Buick" thread in the future. I would have never been able to get this done with Dave Dunton's assistance, he has been a great resource and friend... Most of the construction of the seat back wood frame is pretty straightforward. The side rails seen in the top and bottom of the picture below are not so simple. The ash frames were steam bent in short sections and finger joined. The finger joint is clearly visible at the bottom of this picture. On the bottom right corner you can see where the lumber was machined out to get over the rumble lid hinge and the hole partially visible under the seat cover material fits over a 3/8" hinge stud and square nut. I can't steam bend or finger join the 4" wide side rail lumber like Buick did but using the template I made shown in the picture below I can trace the profile of the side rails onto 1" thick ash lumber, cut the pieces out on a band saw and laminate 4 pieces together to make a 4" wide piece. This also offers the opportunity to use the band saw to cut out the relief pocket for the rumble lid hinge and cut insets for the cross slats to nest in.

Sorry West- I thought what you sent was what you got from your contact. My bad- I jumped to a conclusion...

Hi West- My car is a Fisher Body build. The seat you show is the base seat area in the rumble compartment. That is all accounted for in my car. I need seat BACK details, the seat back attaches to the rumble lid per my previously posted pictures.... Thanks. Dave

A few of my thoughts: Would I convert an ICE collectible car to electric? NO. I enjoy working on my 31 Buick. I enjoy the smell of it. I enjoy the way it looks. I enjoy the research sleuthing to try to make it pretty much as it was. I enjoy the many skills I've learned, woodworking, wiring, trim work. If I were younger I and my money situation would allow I would have a 40x60 pole barn with a paint booth. Past that point now, have to pick my cars carefully to stay within my limitations. Would I consider buying a modern electric vehicle? Maybe, depends on how so called clean renewable energy evolves. I think that is a good word for what is happening today, renewable energy IS evolving. One of the most promising things I have read is the pursuit of a manufacturing practical solid state lithium battery. These have been made in the laboratory setting and their advantages over today's contemporary liquid lithium batteries is so dramatic virtually every OEM on the planet has an advanced engineering program in pursuit of solving the manufacturing problems. The solid state batteries require much less time to recharge and a fully charged battery has 50-60% better range than a comparable liquid lithium battery. I'm also waiting for infrastructure to start to evolve. Fossil fuel infrastructure has evolved since the oil boom in this country, it is much better quality and it's hard to find a place in the US where you have to drive more than a few miles to fill up. When gas stations start having a parking area with charging stations you will know infrastructure is beginning to support demand. Steve Moskowitz commented about how the AACA will vanish eventually when electric vehicles take over. I'm not so sure about that. There will be a long period of time where hobbyists will still be around that had experience with fossil fuel cars and will have interest in collecting, restoring and driving them. Before I got involved in the AACA I was a member of the Antique Classic Boat Society- ACBS. Traditionally ACBS members belonged to the wood boat ilk, the club was structured to support wood boaters and fiberglass boats were shunned, no stinkin fiberglass boats at an ACBS show... Then the demographics began to shift from folks who grew up with and collected and coveted wood boats to those who grew up around fiberglass boats. They were less interested in all that wood and varnish and soaking bottoms to get them to swell and stop leaking water into their bilges. As the paradigm shift progressed the membership started to drop off, many wood boaters got to an age where they quit the hobby or died off. Finally the highest levels of club officers figured out they better start welcoming fiberglass boaters. I like to think I played a small part in that, I owned and restored a 1965 Chris Craft fiberglass Sea Skiff, hull number 12 of only 80 built up to that time that were made of fiberglass out of about 13,700 Chris Craft Sea Skiffs, the rest were wood. The boat I restored was part of an experiment by Chris Craft to try their hand at manufacturing fiberglass boats. The boat works in Algonac, MI was dedicated to wood and Chris Craft saw sales falter. They bought the Thompson Boat factory in Cortland New York which was already making fiberglass boats. The experiment resulted in phasing out wood boats and launched the Chris Craft Commander series boats which were fiberglass. Today their boats are exclusively fiberglass and manufactured in Pompano Beach, Florida. I restored my boat to original layout and specifications relying on The Maritime Museum in Newport News VA which had acquired every hull card for every Chris Craft boat that Chris Craft had long with engineering drawings and advertising. I belonged to the Chris Craft Commanders website and documented the restoration of that boat there. When finished it was a good reliable and fairly seaworthy boat that was kept on Garden Bay, part of Big Bay DeNoc Lake Michigan where we enjoyed the boat for several years. When the time came to sell, which happened to be coincidental with ACBS's decision to start hosting collectors of fiberglass boats the boat wound up on Ebay where it languished until the Woody Boater magazine editor spotted the ad, approached me for permission to run a story and did. Enter Brian Gagnon who was then the commodore and president of ACBS and was looking for a fiberglass boat to add to his collection for the purpose of promoting fiberglass boat owner interest and ACBS membership. The rest, as they say, is history for ACBS. Brian Gagnon drove from NJ with a Toyota SUV, hooked up my boat and drove it back to NJ where he slapped a name on it's transom and took it to the 2014 ACBS fall boat show at Skaneateles Lake NY. I'm hoping the AACA will be as flexible when the day comes that ushers in a paradigm shift from what we old ICE guys know as the collector car hobby today to welcome a different generation that grows up around the electric vehicle. Where there's a gathering of car enthusiasts there will likely be a club... Click the link below and scroll down just a bit to read the Woody Boater article on the Chris Craft fiberglass Sea Skiff I restored and sold to Brian Gagnon... #12 Makes A Statement In Skaneateles NY | Classic Boats / Woody Boater

Excellent- Thank you so much West...

Hi West- Thanks for the response. I clearly identified to the library and in previous posts on this topic that my car is a 31 model 8-66S Special Coupe which is a rumble seated sports coupe. The rumble seat in the 80 0r 90 series car rumble seat might be pretty close to the same construction. It is the seat back that I need information for and the key item is a wood frame the back springs attaches to and then is upholstered over in black leatherette. The black leatherette stretches over the seatback springs and wood frame and is tacked to the bottom of the wood frame. That frame then has a couple of brackets that insert into some inset pockets on the upper rumble lid and the bottom has metal straps that are screwed to the seat back frame across the bottom and they are then screwed to the lower header of the rumble lid woodwork. If anyone has pictures of any series of the 31 rumble seat back without upholstery on it I'd sure like to see them. Dave Dunton down in Lawrenceville GA has the exact same model as my car that has never been apart. He has given me as many pictures of his rumble seat as he can without taking the seat back off the lid or disassembling it. He is also restoring a 30 Chevrolet rumble coupe that has a similar rumble seat but the construction is different. The Chevy rumble lid is all steel where the Buick is steel panel over wood. You can get an idea from the Chevrolet seat but the shape and construction of the wood frame of the seat is different. Dave This is a picture of Dave Dunton's rumble seat back. All around the perimeter of the seat back under the black leatherette is wood frame that the springs are attached to and the leatherette is tacked to. Here is a picture of my bare rumble lid. The arrows point to the inset pockets that some brackets on the seat back slide into to attach the upper back. Here is a picture of one of the lower strap brackets that are attached to the Buick seat back upholstery frame. It then screws to the woodwork on the rumble lid to hold the bottom of the seat back in place. These are some pictures Dave sent of his Chevrolet seat back. You can see the wood frame the seat back springs and leatherette upholstery attach to to make up the seat back assembly. Here is a picture of the Chevrolet's upper seat back attaching brackets which I believe are different than the Buick's. It looks like these insert into the sheet metal lid and let the seat back hang from the upper mounts. Here is a picture of the lower straps on the Chevy seat back that are attached to the seat back sub frame and are then screwed to the sheet metal lid.

Hi to all; I reached out to the AACA Library to see if they had Fisher Body drawings of the rumble seat back assembly consisting of a wood sub frame, upholstery and springs and had no luck. A volunteer archivist sent 3 illustrations from the 1931 Fisher Body Service Manual which are useless and I already have them. They consist of a coupe wood illustration, one of general coupe sheet metal parts and one of the gas tank cover and radiator gravel shield that happens to have a side view picture of a rumble seat in the open position. Again- I know this is a Buick pre-war topic but I'm trying to reach the widest audience to see if anyone knows where I can lay eyes on Fisher Body drawings of the seat back assembly or pictures of a 60 series rumble seat back in the process of being re-upholstered/restored, particularly of the wood frame the back springs attach to. I have some input on how the assembly attaches to the rumble lid but I got no springs and more importantly the wood frame the springs attach to and over the base of the wood frame the upholstery is tacked. I'm trying to keep this car restoration project as authentic as possible. I don't want to invent a design for the frame if I can avoid it. Any help deeply appreciated. Thanks. Dave

I have a little different problem although related. I reached out to SMS to inquire about Trimflex Antique Taupe in 3/8" dia windlace and 1/4" welt to support seat upholstery for my 31 Buick project. The pattern was supposedly discontinued and I happened to find 1/2" Trimflex 1/2" windlace at J&J and was about to order it and let my trim guy disect the 1/2" stuff and re-sew over 3/8" and 1/4" core, which would have been expensive. At the last second SMS answered they had my material and someone would be calling. I wound up ordering from SMS with the idea they would ship the correctly sized material in 3-7 days like their website stated. Next day after ordering I got a paid invoice showing material would go out USPS. After 7 days and no tracking I checked with the trim shop and they confirmed they did not have it. I reached out to SMS again and they informed me that they were at least 2wks out on shipping orders and I would get an email with tracking when they shipped. So alas- I wait. Oh- they did charge my credit card right on time...

It certainly could be an overheated coil. You could try getting the coil hot and confirming a no or weak spark condition then try cooling the coil with a gentle stream of cold water from a garden hose and see if it will start. Make sure the coil you use is designed for the electrics that support it, some systems have a resistor in the primary circuit to lower primary voltage when running and may have a bypass start circuit that bypasses the resistor when starting. A mis-match here could result in overvoltage at the coil primary which could cause the coil to overheat. If the coil you are running requires a resistor make sure to use one. These cars were pretty fussy about vapor lock as well so don't rule that out. Some of these cars had sheet metal heat shields between the carburetors and head to try to avoid this.

Bloo- That article is a hoot! According to that they were doing this procedure as early as 1926. Wonder how long that went on before it was abandoned as a fire hazard...

So I bought a reproduction 1932-33 Cadillac/LaSalle service manual and in the engine section it discussed methods of de-carbonizing combustion chambers which in today's world, with today's fuels and emissions equipment would not be a topic of consideration. On 8 cylinder flat head models the method is pretty straightforward, pull heads and scrape. On V-12 and 16 cylinder models the manual recognizes the added complexity and labor required to dis-assemble and scrape these engines due to the fact they are overhead valve. So Cadillac apparently came up with a clever work around called "carbon burning" which apparently is a procedure where all plugs are removed, asbestos pads are used to cover heat sensitive components and one cylinder at a time in firing order starting with the left bank is rotated into TDC firing position to assure both valves are closed to prevent high heat damage, and some kind of torch/burner arrangement is used to supply some kind of fuelgas and oxygen mixture to each combustion chamber to burn the carbon out of the cylinder without taking the head off. So here are my questions: Has anyone ever done this or seen it done? What kind of burning tool and fuelgas was used? Since the valves are all closed and the piston is at TDC how is the hot gas and carbon exhausted from the burner rig? What is the range of model years this procedure was used on? When I was a kid working in the gas station a Cadillac shop mechanic used one of our service bays to bring an early 60's Cadillac that had been stored away for years back to life. After repairing numerous mechanical accessories he started the car, let it warm for a few minutes, then lay over the top for the radiator with the air cleaner removed, revved the engine up to about 3000 rpm or so and slowly poured about a quart of water into the carburetor to decarbonize the engine with steam. It made a racket and produced clouds of gray exhaust smoke but the engine survived and ran well afterwards. I thought that was pretty wild, the carbon burning procedure seems like it is even more extreme. Edinmass- others- what does anyone know about the carbon burning procedure? Dave

I assume you can actually buy one of these cars via factory order with the associated wait of over 1 year for something close to advertised pricing, otherwise there might be a little trouble with the FTC. What you CANNOT do is walk into your local Chevy dealer and say- "Oh- I like that one, I'll take it!" for anything even remotely like the advertised SRP. That said- I share your taste and appreciation for the C8 Vette, it's a game changer. As Road and Track said about some of the earlier versions, "Ferrari performance at a Chevrolet price!".

Jim- Thanks for identifying this treasure trove of information on 1929 Buick cars, I never knew it existed. There were indeed pictures of a restored rumble lid and pictures of rumble compartment upholstery but the wood frame approach to support the springs was quite different for 29. There is a partial frame on the 29 that is attached to the lid woodwork before the upholstery is added. For 31 there is a wood seat spring frame that surrounds the springs on all 4 sides. This is likely so they could separate the upholstery process into a more workable arrangement, I.E. the 1931 upholstered back can be completed on the bench, then the upholstered springs and frame can be simply attached as an assembly by sliding the top hooks on the seat spring frame into recesses on the lid woodwork and driving 2 screws thru metal brackets attached to the bottom of the seat spring frame assembly. That's a different concept compared to having to tack the upholstery right to the lid with a partial frame to tack the upholstery skirt to. Thanks. Dave The arrows point to pockets on the rumble lid woodwork that upper seat spring frame brackets slide into to secure the top of the seat back/frame assembly.

Hello to all; This is a desperation posting at this point, I posted this in the Buick Pre-War forum and so far haven't gotten anything useful. I finally took the interior front seat of my 31 Buick 8-66S to an upholsterer so that is under way. I'm still trying to figure out details of what the rumble compartment seat back assembly, that attaches to the rumble lid, consists of and how it mounts to the woodwork on the lid. Today I was able to verify with Dave Dunton that the seat springs mount to a wood frame that then mounts to the woodwork on the lid. His seat back is mounted on the lid and I don't want to ask him to take his seat back off to show the frame. I'm looking for anyone who has or knows where I can get Fisher Body drawings to work from OR has pictures of a 60 series 1931 Buick special coupe rumble seat off the lid. Even better pictures would be of seat back frame and springs without the upholstery on it. Second choice of subject cars would be any series 31 Buick special coupe, I.E 8-56S, 8-86s, 8-96S. Any pictures of the wood seat spring frame also would be very helpful. If I can get this figured out and fabricate the wood frame I can give the rumble seat cushions to the trim shop as well and then finally have a complete drivable car. Thanks in advance Dave Dave Dunton is restoring a 1930 Chevrolet rumble seat coupe and this is the seat back springs/frame/upholstery removed from the rumble lid of the Chevy which is same concept but different design.

Hi Tom- My car has artillery wood wheels and single rear mounted spare. Thanks for your offer and reply. Dave

The old Buick service literature recommended graphite as a high temp capable lubricant for damper valve and heat riser valve. I discovered Lock Ease which is a graphite laden penetrating oil in a small aerosol can works well. The other tip is if your linkage is all there and the butterflies all operate do not leave the car parked in the full heat position, the valves will stick and you can destroy a working linkage setup if you force it open from the dash control.

Hello to all; I finally took the interior front seat of my 31 Buick 8-66S to an upholsterer so that is under way. I'm still trying to figure out details of what the rumble compartment seat back assembly, that attaches to the rumble lid, consists of and how it mounts to the woodwork on the lid. Today I was able to verify with Dave Dunton that the seat springs mount to a wood frame that then mounts to the woodwork on the lid. I'm looking for anyone who has pictures of a 60 series 1931 Buick special coupe rumble seat off the lid. Even better would be pictures of a seat back without the upholstery on it. Second choice of subject cars would be any series 31 Buick special coupe, I.E 8-56S, 8-86s, 8-96S. Any pictures of the wood seat spring frame also would be very helpful. If I can get this figured out and fabricate the wood frame I can give the rumble seat cushions to the trim shop as well and then finally have a complete drivable car. Thanks in advance Dave

They make a load rated steady jack assembly that bolts or welds to the trailer frame. I had a couple of 2500 lb rated ones on a 6 x 12 custom built BNM trailer. They have a pull pin on the side to lock them up out of the way when trailering. To deploy you pull the spring loaded pin, rotate the jacks into position and operate the screw handle at the top of the jack tube. These had anti-skid flat feet. When the jacks are deployed and the trailer is not coupled I used the dolly wheel tongue jack in tandem with the 2 steady jacks and drove 3000 lb tractors up the ramp tailgate onto the trailer which had a 5000 lb axle without any tipping or creeping. The link gives an idea of what these are. Reese, Curt and others make these. Curt 28304 Bracket Mount Swivel Jack - Farm Parts Store Wish the 24ft enclosed car hauler I rented to tow my 31 Buick to Michigan from Illinois had these, might have avoided launching the tongue of the trailer thru the tailgate of my then brand new F350 Super Duty...

So my car is a 31 8-66S and I had the same concern as to whether or not my car had the engine it was born with. Answer? Not 100% sure, Buick did not keep records of which engine went into what chassis and there was no effort to have the engine serial number match the chassis number. I confirmed this with Dave Dunton whose 31 8-66S has never been apart and has a lower chassis number than engine number. My chassis number starts with 246, my engine number starts with 257. This is a comparison of the chassis number on a plate riveted to the right side of the frame some distance behind the front axle to the number stamped on a machined pad on the engine behind the oil filler and above the rear tappet cover.

The idea was to allow clutch-less shifts once the car was rolling. Once the car was rolling in low gear you could step on the red pedal and then make shifts up and down until you stopped at which point you had to use the clutch to get the car rolling again. It was very troublesome and as others have indicated, commonly removed.

So there are a couple of things that hold back airflow in these old heaters. Fan design, I.E. airplane propeller is very inefficient compared to a squirrel cage blower wheel installed in a blower scroll with a properly designed cutoff, inlet ring and upstream inlet duct, fan location downstream of the restriction of the heater core's airside passages (blowers do much better with downstream restrictions to airflow than upstream restrictions to airflow), 6 volt low current wound field motor VS 12 volt high current (up to 30 amp) permanent magnet motor. A lot of the old tech design is driven by lack of package space in the heater box and the cars electrical system's limitation on available power. I spent many days in the Ford HVAC lab working to develop A/C airhandling systems that would produce 250 SCFM airflow in Max A/C recirc mode at less than 30 amp current draw. By the time you arranged ductwork to properly distribute airflow equally to panel registers with some floor bleed a system that put out 225 SCFM in Max A/C recirc was considered exceptional.

As Doc Holiday used to say- "I'm your huckleberry".

I did get a phone call from Keith Payne today and we arrived at a plan to get my moldings done so all set on this one. Thanks...