devildog93
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Posts posted by devildog93
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The blaster i was thinking of using was the eastwood speed blaster. I don't need a big time blaster, just something for patches here and there. It seems easy enough to work with and has numerous attachments to play with. I think you can even rig up the vacuum head with it as well, or at least someone sells a kit for that. I saw a video of a guy using it and though "damn, that is just what i need for the spot i'm in" . Hopefully it works out all right. http://www.eastwood.com/speed-blast-gravity-feed-blaster.html . I saw a video of a guy using it, but can't find it at the moment.
- Jeff
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I'm working on the trunk and on the back edge where it had rust that i cannot get to with anything else, so i am going to have to attack it with a speed blaster ...i just don't see an alternative other than half-assing it and encapsulating it. It's going to be a driver but i figure i should get it right when and where i can. I'm not blasting the whole car, just a few 1' x 1' areas in the truck, some seams, that kind of thing. Everything on the outside will be done with traditional tools such as da and air sanders. None of that is going to help in the areas where i have cracks and crevices i can't get to though.
If i had the whole body taken off and dipped i would have ended up with 80% of the metal i thought i started with. I don't think i would try to restore anything worse than what this car started if i had it to do over again, but it is a great car to learn fab, metalwork, and now maybe sandblasting.
-Jeff
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Anyone have any experience using a spot blaster? I'm hoping someone can tell me a bit more about it or the small sandblasters like it. I have a few areas i'm attacking rust in that i can't get to with a grinder, roloc disc, or anything else short of chemical removal. I'm trying to avoid the chemical rust removal as much as possible. I've tried it in spots off and on, but was looking at using a spot blaster in those hard to get to spots. Also, if anyone wants to chime in on media of choice to use with the small blasting projects for rust removal i am all ears.
thanks,
-Jeff
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Improper break in is a big cause of failure for sure, but i think we are seeing more failures than a few people with improper break-in procedures. Bottom line - if you don't have a cataytic converter you sure as hell don't need an oil that makes trade-offs in zinc and phosphorous to extend cat life. The new stuff was not made with our motors in mind and that is fine. As long as people are making products that will keep them going i don't suppose it matters.
Sorry if this came off as a big pissing match, but i'm a former Marine and enjoy a good exchange of views now and then. That's the way we learn right? At least that is the way it works for me. One other thing - the cam companies are recommending break in oil and their own specific brand of break in lubes for new builds. Some are even recommending continued running of additives for the life of the car just to cover their butts as well, but i think just getting an oil from Lucas, Brad Penn, or something along those lines will cover it after the 3000 mile break-in period.
I look forward to hearing what you think about the Brad Penn and if you think it helps Marty. Until someone takes pics of a fresh build at 3k, 10k, etc. and can show cam and lifter wear i don't think we will hear the end of the debate. The problem with that is who is going to do the bad side of things and rebuild an older flat tappet with nothing but new oil? i sure don't want to throw cash into something knowing the outcome could possibly be the death of a nailhead and another rebuild. I guess we will have to call it good enough if we get 100 people running old oil formulations that have 100k on their motors and whatnot.
-Jeff
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Obviously this is just theorycraft on my part and a bit of speculation, but with the amount of cam and lifter failures the industry is seeing and the way the majority drive these cars i really doubt it is due to red-lining them. I would think an educated guess would lean towards start-up and the seconds prior to getting everything oiled well that cause the most damage.
As for adding zddp to current oil, that has been shown to be a problem as well. Maybe you have found the magic mixture, but without a chemistry degree and experience in the field i would not feel confident mixing zddp with a current oil and hoping for the best. Today's oil has detergents and other compounds that may actually counteract zinc. Does it make sense to add zddp to an oil that has detergents put in it to specifically counteract metal deposits? Probably not i think. The K.I.S.S. policy would seem to appropriate here. No need to make it complex, just use an oil with an older formulation made for when we had zinc in the oil.
I personally don't want to be buying lifters and cams for the nailheads any more than necessary. They aren't like replacing a set for a small block chevy back in the day and even if they were i have other things i could be spending my time on. When i fix something i want it to stay fixed for a while, but that is just me i guess. Proper oil seems like a small investment to help ensure bigger money doesn't come out of my pockets for larger repairs.
You were wrong on so many fronts yet you seemed to skip right past addressing them. Brad Penn grade 1 oil can be had for $70 or thereabouts for a case of 12. I don't know where you learned math, but in my neck of the woods that comes out to around $5.50 a quart. I don't know where you got 24 bucks a piece, but you might re-check that.
Some guy mixing oil in a bathtub and adding unknown chemicals does not inspire confidence, or somehow create motor longevity. - I was answering that specifically and thought you were calling Bad Penn, Lucas oil, etc. bathtub mixers. If you were not then you need to clarify because i don't see how that could be taken any other way. If you were talking about me adding chemicals then i suppose you would be right, except i don't and would not delve into a chemistry experiment such as you do by adding zddp to a current oil. Hopefully it works well for you, i just would not feel comfortable doing that myself.
Oh, one more thing in closing - when you find that police, taxi, or other commercial fleet running 50s and 60s motors let me know, otherwise you are comparing apples to oranges. Chances are that they are not running flat tappet motors like we are talking about. I know there are thousands of threads on the subject at hamb and a host of others, so the info. is out there if people want to find it. I'm not going to be that front man for older oil formulations, everyone can make their own decisions. I just hope they are informed decisions where people look at all the information, digest it, then decide for themselves.
In the end i'll gladly pay 40 bucks an oil change if it even drops my chance of cam/lifter failure by a couple percentage points. I personally think it is a cheap form of insurance and that the amount of protection it affords is far greater than a couple of percentage points, but that could only be tested on a mule motor with several thousands miles put on it. Maybe someday someone will do it, but i doubt you will see it coming from the oil companies or new car manufacturers. It will likely come from a cam/lifter source or a racer if i had to bet on it. Racers love to play mad scientist and maybe someone has already done it and i just haven't been looking in the right place. If so, i will report back, otherwise i will just leave it as that and quit harping about it.
-Jeff
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I don't really think it's a conspiracy that they are lowering levels of zinc every couple of years. It is out in the open for all to see. The problem is the collector cars are a niche that they don't care to maintain. This isn't really a surprise. It is also a fact that the new windows software won't work very well in my old atari tape drive computer. Never did i endorse a specific brand of oil. It is more about what the oil has in it.
Our engines have far more force generated where the lifter and camshaft meet. This is pretty much an antiquated technology that isn't supported by today's conventional motor oil made for overhead cams and roller motors. If you don't want to believe it despite all the literature from reputable sources out there that is your choice, but sticking your head in the sand does not mean a problem doesn't exist. Some of us drive these cars instead of treating them as trailer queens, putting far more than 1000 miles on them a year, so to us the difference may mean much more.
Now about the small metal parts manufacturers not knowing more about metallurgy. I don't know that anyone said they did. No one said the big companies didn't know. I said they didn't give a crap, and i stand by that. They support new cars for the most part and that is where they butter their bread. Are you young or would this be the first time a large corporation has lied to you? As i sourced earlier, even GM has admitted they see a problem pattern forming. That is about the best you are going to get as far as big corporations accepting blame. as far as knowing about metallurgy, i bet Harvey Crane and people like him in the industry know as much about metallurgy as anyone alive when it comes to car parts and how they interact. All of these guys have spent more time shaping, polishing and watching real world examples of the interactions of car parts than any 10 mobil engineers i would be willing to bet.
Lastly, to call the smaller companies bathtub mixers is a bit of a ignorant statement. A lot of our advancement in the automotive field came from small operations or even just one guy. Read up on how Brodix started. The guy worked at a family owned foundry and designed and cast his own heads for his hobby, then started selling to local racers. Lucas Oil and Brad Penn are bathtub mixers, that is pretty funny crap..but ignorant.
-Jeff
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Well, being in oil country and having lived here most of my life this is something i know a little about as far as the refineries go. In Oklahoma we have 5, from Conoco which produces 200,000 barrels a day to Wynnewood refining which produces 70,000 barrels a day. Texas has 24 that go from 200k a day to almost 600k barrels a day. So, to answer your question....no, i don't think the big corporations own them all and we are getting oil from middlemen. I know that Brad Penn has their own refinery and produces their own product.
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I work with a couple of guys who drive old cars every day back and forth to work. One swears by Brad Penn, the other is a cheapster and uses the same rotella blend he runs in the wrecker. The problem with the latter is that they can change the rotella makeup on a whim, and the formulation is already on the list to be changed again. Neither has had any problems yet, but i lean towards the Brad Penn or something along those lines that is close to the same make-up the cars had when they were in their prime of life originally. A lot of smaller companies make a classic car oil and i know a lot of people that have their favorites such as Lucas, Elf, Brad Penn, Joe Gibbs racing, etc. I would pick one you feel comfortable and go with that. Myself, i am just staying away from the big dogs such as Mobil, Castrol, and their like. They have moved on and we are a blip on the radar. They don't cater to us like Brad Penn and the smaller companies do. We are the target market for the latter of the two groups.
I'm not assigning blame, time marches on after all. The epa and the major manufacturers are moving on and we just don't factor in when they make decisions. The best way i can voice my displeasure is by not supporting them with my dollar, or at least that is my line of thought.
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It's an argument that has been going on for the last few years and reminds me of the climate change topic. What it comes down to is this - We have oil producers on one side saying the oil is good to go and we have cam producers and engine builders on the other side saying they are seeing damage from the new oils. The cam producers and builders have more than anecdotal evidence to back their claims including pictures of cams run on the newer oils after a break-in period.
Zinc and phosphorous cause damage to catalytic converters, so it doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure that the epa would not be a fan of the older oil formulations. It isn't just our industry either, it cross over into aviation as well. http://generalaviationnews.com/2013/08/28/what-you-dont-know-about-zinc-can-hurt-you/ ; I found this particularly informative: http://www.ttalk.info/Zddp.htm ; http://www.motor.com/article.asp?article_ID=1604
So we can believe the epa and oil manufacturers, or we can believe the engine rebuilders association, cam manufacturers like crane/competition cams/isky/etc., racers, or even General Motors who has known about the issue for quite a while. Hell,even the oil companies have admitted to "starting to see a pattern forming" . Now i'm not trying to be the boy who cried wolf. It just seems plain as day and i don't want to be the poor sap left without a chair when the music stops. There is a problem and it isn't heresay. There is hard data including pictures and scientific tests if you care enough to find them. You have the word of major manufacturers of auto parts and engine builders. Run what you want to run, but at least be informed and understand how the game is running and where we fit in.
-Jeff
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Yes, we might hear too much, but balance that against the major oil companies telling us what they think we need and the "studies" they put out. The auto industry has been hand in hand with the oil industry for quite some time. They don't want you to drive a 50 year old car. There isn't enough profit in it for them. They would like for you to buy a brand new car every 5 years and not have to support 50 years of auto technology. Cash for clunkers fit in perfect with that theme. So now we have a lot of newer vehicles with roller rockers and new oil formulations specifically designed around that. So you mean to tell me the oil i put in my new(er) F150 has the same requirements as my 64 buick. Guess what, not really. The motors are night and day different. They both are internal combustion engines and that is about where it stops. You can look at the major oil group studies and see what they say. I can save you some time if you would like. The new oil is fine and dandy and there shouldn't be a problem. Now i can point you to a few tech bulletins put out by camshaft companies who were having to warranty way to many cams of late : http://wasaac.org/techdocs/compcams.pdf ; http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/flat-tappet-cam-tech/ ; http://www.aera.org/engine-professional/flat-tappet-camshafts/
I'm sure you can find more if you need to but it comes down to this - The epa has decided it doesn't want to see our old cars driving around and has reduced zinc and phosphorous amounts to catastrophic levels for most classic cars. You can say the amount of classic car failures is insignificant i suppose and hope you are never one of those guys who has a cam go flat or you can decide that forewarned is forearmed and go from there. I believe the problem is legitimate and more than just a couple of guys. The cam companies are screaming about it as they lose warranty money day after day. That is about all i need to hear. The trick of being able to use rotella t is pretty much gone. It is now being reduced every couple of years until it sits where they want it to. What the epa is doing is akin to not outlawing guns, but instead making it illegal to purchase or use lead ammunition.
Well people will believe what they want to believe. Even if the truth is somewhere in the middle i will lean towards caution and maybe not look at the oil companies recommendations and instead look to the guys running their cars far harder than i will be, like track racers. Those guys run their cars hard and determine in the real world what works and what does not. It isn't a theory, it isn't a paper, it is reality. When they notice things breaking with one oil and not so much with another word gets around. The Brad Penn oil seems to have a good name in those circles. I'm sure a few other companies are making good stuff as well, but i think every year the list gets shorter.
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That's fine and dandy Ed, but i imagine the new porches don't need as much zinc as a 64 Buick. They, like just about anything else nowadays have much tighter tolerances, better machining practices, and roller rockers, so they have no need for the extra zinc. Comparing the needs of one against the other is like apples and oranges. There has been a lot of talk about this and the need for zinc in older motors and horror stories about shelled cams and the like in older cars. I just want to make sure i'm not the guy who finds out the hard way.
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I'm not going to argue cost Ed. to each his own. i am personally willing to spend a little more to ensure i am running what it needs. It's like insurance to me. I'll skimp other places before i skimp on oil or filters. I totally understand why someone would pay a liittle less for mobil 1 synthetic, but saving 10 bucks for an oil change isn't worth it to me.
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Brad Penn grade 1 high performance oil has 1400 ppm zinc and 1300-1400 ppm phosphate. It also is carried by amazon, my wife's favorite place to visit online.
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Ok, i'm going to have to have to chime in just so the other side gets a voice in this. The numbers matching crowd seems to have plenty of say, but i think you guys are off base a bit. I think anyone who has even done a frame on restoration knows how much time it would take to get these cars whipped into shape. It is pretty obvious some time has been spent on both of them. The matching numbers crowd is the reason we don't see more of them around and perhaps a contributing factor as to why the value is depressed.
I could see beating the car down over shoddy body work, sub-par interior, or something nutty like having small-block ford powering it, but that isn't the case. You guys are picking at them because the door panels don't match the original scheme and other minor cosmetic choices they made? Seems petty to me. Sure, if my object was to win a car show where bean counters were telling me how nice it was i guess you guys would win, but i think you are missing the true point. The car was brought back to like new condition and can be driven. Someone should be driving it and enjoying it and it isn't being scrapped. In a world where we don't have many of these left i applaud the fact they are being taken on as projects by anyone, factory correct or modified. I actually also see the value in having people who treat them like museum pieces to keep history intact, but to me seeing them driving around on the street is what is exciting. Just because a shop throws their theme at something and changes a few things around doesn't automatically lower the value to me, and obviously some others.
We seem to be the worst about picking on things due to originality. You don't see that as much in other hobbies. Take guns for instance. You wouldn't see a colt 1911 A1 with aftermarket grips, sights, and some modifications on the slide/trigger and automatically decide it is worth half of what a stock military issue .45 was worth. Sometimes it is an improvement. I totally expect these cars to come back a little with resto-modders. I think it is a perfect platform. The car itself is beautiful with the lines and look it has. It has room for all kinds of aftermarket upgrades on the engine, transmission, exhaust, brakes, and interior. They can be bought fairly cheap with restoration in mind and yet there are not 1000s of them running around like '69 camaros.
Sorry guys, these cars might not win a bca show, but i would love to see them at rod and custom show. Again, i realize resto-mod is only one segment of the hobby population, but give the guys some credit for having a couple of Rivieras in good running shape if they are that and maybe realize the museum crowd is also just a part of the car scene. Hell, maybe if they come up in value we will start getting more parts made for these things. That would be a winner for everyone in my opinion.
-Jeff
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Sure there are bad shops, but there are even worse customers who can't comprehend english or it just doesn't register with them. I see guys come through every other day with cars that have 100k on them that have never had an oil change and they wonder why the lifters are noisy. I work in oilfield country, so it is fairly normal to see a guy with a $60,000 truck ruining it by towing a trailer loaded down with 100,000 pounds and bitching that the truck has no power under load. I guess i am just saying the retardation goes both ways.
A couple of questions about your vatting. I assume they were just paid to dip it and call it good. At that point i would have driven it back to the shop, blown it out and installed new freeze plugs. Did you pay them to do that as well and they didn't? Maybe there was a breakdown in communication as to what stage you were wanting and what you got. I don't know anything about that shop, but i know a lot of problems arise from lack of or improper communication between parties.
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Exhaust won't be an issue. I will be remaking the exhaust from the manifolds back and will likely be dumping them just in front of the wheels. The exhaust was rusted out from the rear wheels back, so i cut it and dumped them in front of the rear wheels to experiment and see what it sounded like. With no muffler and straight pipes it still isn't real obnoxious. i will likely be experimenting with a glass pack or something then some turn-downs to send it away from the car and towards the ground and see what it sounds like there. After i try a couple of things i will get set on one thing or another and get to mocking it up. I will likely be another month in body work before i even get to that though.
I don't suppose the fronts have to be 245, it was just a leaning. 225 will be just fine. The rears are the important part for traction if i get it to the power level i am expecting but i still want it to keep a similar stance to yours. Just a quick, fun drive back and forth to work car that can cruise comfortably on the highway or hang out with the hot rod crew around town and not be the fat kid so to speak. A little sleeper action would be nice.
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Great news and congrats. So would ordering the wheels with a different backspacing been the way to get ahead of the problem you think?
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I love the look of that. Very sharp looking without being crazy over the top i think. That is a lot of red for sure. Did you have any work done to the heads when you had it apart?
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I have learned the hard way about rust. Take what you see and multiply it by at least 3. If you aren't familiar with the car and don't know the common rust spots it might even be higher. I know if i used the x3 rule when i picked this car up it would have fallen far short. I have also found that just because it doesn't have surface pitting doesn't mean anything. Usually a good inch or two past what is known rust is also bad. The mig welder has taught me that. The metal i thought was "good" was actually swiss cheese with rust pits throughout that i just could not see. Once i started welding it was running away from the arc faster than i could lay down a bead. This also taught me that if i have a question as to the integrity of an area i can lay a bead on it. If it sticks it is likely good metal.
Ah well, i am learning as i go and trying to add bodywork to some degree to my mechanical/electrical/electronics background. I figure if Chip Foose and a host of others can do it all i can at least give it a try. At this point all i would have to do for a frame-off is pull the frame, and if i had the room i would after seeing some of the guys working their frames here and the impressive work they have pulled off. It is just one big experiment and everything can be done again at some point if i need to. At least now i know what will likely be the last places it rusts again down the road.
I have a question for you Ed. How sad was it chopping up a parts car Riviera? I know it was dead and picked apart, but it would still bug the crap out of me. Then again, by the time i am done my car will have sheet metal and associated parts from about 5 different gm models. So far i have 78 and 73 camaro metal, a corvette ribbed air cleaner from around 70 and a couple of other things laying around from camaros, firebirds, and cadillacs. Hell, if i go through with your idea i can add Ford Explorer to that for the rear end. Maybe i'll call it the frankenstein-mobile. I suppose that would be better than what my shop-mate called it when i got it. He named it the Fred flintstone-mobile due to the front floorpans being half gone and the ability to push it around the shop by sticking your boots to the floor without having to exit the car.
-Jeff
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No i did not keep track of my hours and that was on purpose. #1 - I did not want our paint and body guy to laugh at me about it and #2 i really didn't want to put a number to how slow i am with it. i enjoyed the last part a lot and i am getting a little faster. If i was doing it to flip it i would have stopped after i got it running and stopping properly. I am now past the point of no return and i will likely never give it up.
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It has been a while since i updated, but i have been at it a bit. Here are a few photos of what i was working on.
Those were a couple of trunk patches i welded in. I missed a picture of the right repair of the cup underneath the trunk, but it wasn't a big deal, maybe 3 inches by 1.5 inches wide.I then shifted to the outside and the dreaded project of former a quarter repair panel from scratch. I did have the passenger side to mirror it off of. Lots of measuring, re-grinding, cutting and re-cutting pieces,etc. I used a mig welder and a 73 camaro hood for patch panels.
So i am pretty much done with the major work on that side. I have some work to do on the underside, but that was the most of it. Just finish grinding, a bit of hammering to get the lines as close to perfect as i can, rust inhibitor and a little bondo and i think it will look like new, at least in that spot.
-Jeff
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Combining hp/torque and good looks. I count myself extremely lucky to stumble upon the 1st gen Riviera last year. Prior to that i had no clue about them and even thinking back i have seen maybe 3 in my lifetime in person(i'm 44). I was a trans-am/firebird/anything hot rod fan prior to finding out about them and i am now converted. Very cool car with power and some comfort. Can't beat that. Add to it the fact that most people don't even know what it is and that just makes it better.
-Jeff
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Ed, i'm not quite ready to pull the trigger on roller rockers just yet. I am shooting for December for my mechanical shakedown and would like to pull and rebuild the transmission in that month. At the same time i figure it would be a good idea to go ahead and do any engine work at that time. The mechanic in me wants to blow it apart and at least give it an overhaul, but i have a couple things slowing my roll on it. #1, it runs pretty damn good as is. #2, if i blow it up the chances of my ocd kicking in and taking it to a full rebuild would be pretty high. It does not smoke or knock and has good power as it stands, although it leaks and drips transmission fluid.
Again, not trying to hijack the thread, i will update mine with a few of the things i have done in the last couple of weeks with pics later today. I love that guys post their build threads, i just wish i had the commitment to blow it all the way up like you guys have done going frame-off. Unfortunately, we have a ford falcon and a mustang we are playing with that are already taking up half the shop with engine/trans swaps, so doing a 100% tear-down was not in the cards for mine at this time. I will pull it off and eventually remove every bit of rust that has infected the car at some point because it has gotten personal, just not this year.
Tom's rockers definitely seem like the way to go without changing the engine bay fit or the mechanical operation, i just wonder about availability and how long a wait i will have upon ordering them. It seems to be like ordering specialty barrels for firearms. You get on the list and maybe you get them 8 months down the road...or at least that is how i am reading the ongoing thread at the buick v8 forums.
On a sidenote, i am really starting to get converted off of our original power plants. I love the idea of the nailhead, but it just seems like they got cut short and they went another direction with the 430/455 line. Every so often we turn up a good deal on a buick 455 or perhaps something newer. With all the custom parts required for the nailhead engines, from pistons to rockers, i am really starting to get annoyed. I love the look of the car and i love the powerplant currently, but i may build something else for a little drivetrain insurance later on down the road that i can actually get parts for without having to be part of a custom run.
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I like the painted fins look a lot. Always good to bang ideas around and see what other guys are doing before i get to it. I'm not sure even what valve covers i'm going to end up with yet, but i have a while before i get back to the engine compartment. I am leaning towards the t/a roller rockers that require the taller valve covers at the moment, but that is just one idea out of 5 i have bouncing around before i get there.
spot blaster experience?
in Buick Riviera
Posted
I will take a picture of the areas i am dealing with tomorrow and maybe a couple of you guys can chime in with a better solution, but i think the speed blaster is the best option i have come up with so far. It iwll definitely reach the areas i am having issues with, but whether it will be enough i have yet to find out. As for my air at the shop, we have 2, 5 hp compressors plumbed together. It comfortably runs a da sander while another guy is using air tools on a car on one of the lifts. I am pretty sure the setup will run just fine with me running alone in the morning hours. I'm by myself from 6 am to noon, so this shouldn't be an issue at all. http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200318461_200318461 That is a picture of one of our tanks. Of course ours are 8 years old instead of new, but i am not in the shop to take pictures, so that was the best i could do from here.
Again, i will follow up tomorrow with pictures of the trunk area and what i am trying to do so you guys have a better idea. I am learning as i go on bodywork, so please take it easy. Any tips or instruction would be great. The other 2 guys at my shop are great mechanics with 20+ years experience a piece, but are somewhat limited in body experience. I think after i did all the sheet metal replacement i had surpassed all of their body experience with just that. I am prepping the trunk area for me to lay down por 15 silver, epoxy a few holes, sand, prime/filler, then splatter paint over that. I have cut sheet metal out to patch 2 areas and i'm now at the stage where i am trying to get all the rust and pitting taken care of before i can degrease/prep the area for por 15. Getting all the seam sealer out and the rust in hard to get areas is where i am currently stuck.
- Jeff