wayne sheldon

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Everything posted by wayne sheldon

  1. Whatever it really is? It has potential to show people what some early automobile efforts were like. And that is something that is not shown often enough. It sounds like you are on a good path, good luck! Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
  2. You won't like me. And I (or anyone) would need to see either much better pictures or look at it in person to be certain of anything. However, from what I can see in these photos. It likely was just a horse-drawn carriage that someone tried to make an antique "Horseless Carriage" out of at some point. The Horseless Carriage Club of America, Antique Automobile Club of America, and the Veteran Motor Car Club of America were all founded in the mid to late 1930s. Interest grew slowly at first, both because real antiques (?) were still not very old, and there was the depression, followed by World War II. In the late '40s and through the '50s, interest in early automobiles grew. Cars were driven in local parades, and major club outings often made the local newspapers. A lot of people decided that they wanted to "join the fun!" Not fully understanding what the goal was, they got an old horse-drawn carriage, added a motor, and tried to make it driveable (steering and maybe brakes). That is what I think this car is. There are several reasons for why I think this. 1: The motor and clutch look very much like some that were commonly used during the 1930s to run things like washing machines. I could be wrong here. Companies like Waltham/Orient and De Dion Bouton made and sold engines for automobile use around 1900 that are not much different. They have aluminum crank cases and fins around the cylinder and so forth. But they are a bit different in how they appear to be made. Again, it should be looked at closely by someone that really knows what they are looking at. If you can find a nearby stationary engine club? They may be able to help you. 2: The steering. It was found very early in automotive development that a "center-swing" type front axle and steering simply did not work. Yes, it was done, and tried. If I recall correctly, even the Duryea brothers' first attempt may have tried it. How your car's steering is modified and braced from what appears to be a horse-drawn axle simply would not work. Any sort of roughness on a dirt road would throw you into a lurch at even 2 mph. Do not take what I have said as the final word! Who am I? Nobody, really. Just a long-time hobbyist (about 50 years) that has wanted the earliest and crudest horseless carriage I could get. And I think I got one. On the way to getting what I have, I looked at probably a couple dozen of those "modified during the '30s to '50s horseless carriages". A lot of them were built. What you are beginning to work on should be looked at very closely, by someone that knows a lot about really early cars and motors. It would be wonderful to find more early unknowns and bring them into the light. Even if they are unreliable and difficult to drive? They should be preserved and seen. Something I found doing my research. More than four hundred individuals and small companies built from one to maybe four automobiles before the year 1900. None of these people became commercial producers. Those more than four hundred people do not include Henry Ford, Alexander Winton, Apperson, Haynes, the Stanley twins or anyone else that even two percent of us could name. Those more than four hundred people and small companies were experimenters, blacksmiths, businessmen, and just plain folks that figured the automobile was the wave of the future. And they wanted to try their hand at it. Most of them are listed in the Kimes and Clark 'Standard Catalog of American Cars, 1805-1942'. Some on my list are not in that book, the result of many hours researching other sources as well. Other than some local "Historical Society", most of those over four hundred people are not well known outside the Kimes and Clark book. That is a lot of "unknown" horseless carriages that could be lurking around somewhere. Maybe what you are working on is one of them. However, the odds are against it. Good luck! W2
  3. Yes Dave, my tongue is still sore from that! The only thing automotive that I like better than a nice Nickel Age car? Is a wonderful Horseless Carriage! (I love your '15 Buick by the way) And that is what I was told a long time ago. drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
  4. Those following this thread here may want to look in on the Model T Ford Club of America's forum site to see what is being said about your situation. Comments, both good and bad are there. Warning, I did use the "H" word in my post. Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2014: Something to ponder happening at the Vintage Chevy club This below should hopefully be the link straight to the thread.; http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/411944/484313.html?1412647008 Or you may need to do a copy and paste to your browser. Good luck guys! Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
  5. I don't know if I should say this or not. Especially since it is my second favorite era of automobiles (following horseless carriages), and most of the automobiles I have ever owned were of this era. Having neither the open craftsmanship and decoration of horseless carriages, nor the artistic streamlining of the mid '30s to late'40s, when I got into this hobby over 40 years ago, I was told that was the "ugly era". Sadly, I have never heard a better description for it other than the "nickel age" (or "nickel era"). The cars of that era were becoming well evolved, they were practical and affordable, relatively fast and reliable. Personally, I like the look of them. And I love driving them. Although it doesn't really describe the body style trend, I would go with Nickel Era. Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
  6. It always saddens me to hear of such losses. Thank you for informing those of us who otherwise may not have heard about it. Tires? I don't know. I have had a lot less trouble with thirty-to-forty-year-old tires than I have with newer tires. One of the most important questions, is whether the casing is cotton cord or not? Even a minute amount of rubber checking will allow moisture inside, and the cotton fibers rot (becoming very unsafe, very fast). Nylon and other synthetic fiber casings do not rot and can usually be rather badly checked, yet still be safe (provided the tire was properly manufactured in the first place). My condolences on the loss of your friend. Wayne Sheldon
  7. So much gray area, to begin with. Personally, I don't like the idea of being a "purist", because it is unrealistic. I do want my cars to be as close to "era correct" as is reasonable. And that includes my model T boat-tail roadster. Although it does have a few accessories that weren't on the market until about 1924. Speedsters are a particularly difficult debate. And vintage modifications can be just as difficult. That issue aside, really early automobiles really need a club that caters to their specific needs, research, comradery, touring requirements. The HCCA is that club. They also have weathered a similar assault for many years. With them, it is not a modified acceptance, but allowing newer cars as active members. I have always argued against such a change. I also belong to a Nickel Age Touring Club (not affiliated with the HCCA). I want a nickel age club? I join a nickel age club. I want a horseless carriage club? I join a horseless carriage club. The HCCA should not expand into the '20s and certainly not later cars. The efforts to preserve AND TOUR earlier cars could be too easily lost if that happened. It is interesting to note, that they already do not tour the pre-1908 cars very much. In England and Australia, the really early cars are toured much more than they are here. I read a lot of the tour reports. There should be a club for cars nearly how Chevrolet built them. And that club should be the VCCA. I think the biggest problem, is the loss of understanding that there IS a difference. Too many people today do not understand that a hotrod and an authentically restored car are not the same thing. That goes hand-in-hand with not learning or appreciating history in general. That is part of catering to the "lowest common denominator" and teaching people that no matter what they do, it is a good thing and they should not ever be expected to learn anything different. The lessons of history are being lost, and that is leading us down a path that will likely end this once great nation. Then where will our cars be? Freedom is another important issue. I applaud people building hotrods (as long as they do so because that is what they want, and hopefully have enough appreciation to not destroy something historically significant). It does not mean that clubs should not be specifically for "era correct" cars. I have ranted enough for this time. Drive carefully, and enjoy, while you can. W2
  8. Turn ignition off. Rotate crank until points are well closed. Turn on engine switch (do not leave it on long with points closed as that will eventually ruin the points). Use a screwdriver to snap the points open. Be prepared to holler "OWWW! All kidding aside. Do NOT use a volt meter to measure the high voltage side of any coil unless you have the PROPER meter and KNOW how to use it. Even many meters with high numbers available on their scale sometimes can be blown up like a firecracker unless you have the proper probe (and again KNOW how to use it). Run a spark plug type wire from the large "high voltage" connection on the coil to near a grounding point (engine head or bolt is usually good). Brace it or clamp it gently (vice grips can work well here, clamped onto good insulation only) holding the wire end less than a quarter inch (1/8 inch is better) from that bolt head or other grounding point. Now, being careful to not short or ground the points directly (screwdriver end wrapped in electrical tape can help, or use a Popsicle stick), with the ignition on, pry open the points. You should be able to jump a pretty good BLUE spark from the end of the wire across the open to ground. This all takes place before the distributor which is likely in the same housing device as the points, however points action and high voltage distribution are two separate functions. The next step would be to make sure that spark can find its way through the distributor to the each individual plugs. At this point, you need to brace or clamp each of every spark plug wire to a similar visible ground (or wires connected to the plugs, with plugs out of the cylinders and chassis base of the plug well grounded. Now a healthy starter might be nice, however, many antiques can be hand cranked. With switch on, rotate the crank about thirty rpm. Watch each and every wire or plug fire a nice blue to blue-white spark. If the spark is orange, the coil and/or the condenser is weak. This was how we did it in the old days and on deserted roadsides to determine that the ignition is working properly. It is also a good idea to do some of these checks in a dark garage (use a small flashlight to find things and set up, then lights out, and look for sparks jumping where they should not be. And though it all, do be prepared to to holler "OWWWW!" High voltage can find its way around and bite you when you do not expect it. A word of caution. SOME people with heart or other serious health issues could be harmed (or even killed) by an ignition shock. Engine ignition is very high voltage, but extremely low current. MOST, MOST, MOST people will not be harmed by an accidental shock from automotive ignition. It may hurt like the Dickens for a couple seconds. You may get a bruise or cut on your arm from pulling it away too fast and hitting the radiator brace rod. Generally speaking, voltage does not kill you. Current (amps) kills you. Under the wrong circumstances, a 90 amp six volt car battery can kill a healthy man. I have been shocked dozens of time and for many reasons and circumstances. I have even grabbed spark plug wires on a running engine just to prove the point. Several times. Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
  9. mtfca.com also recently vastly improved their classified section. Now. It may seem a bit archaic by web standards today. However, that is how most of us crazy model T people like it. Check in with us. Read. Enjoy! You may be able to get some good suggestions for salvaging badly rusted sheet metal. It really depends upon just how bad is it? And what do you expect from it? One of our regulars salvaged a really rough original body because it had been in his family since before WWII. It will never be a show car, but he is enjoying the car and rightfully proud of it! I have used phosphoric acid to clean and alter rust before using oil based paints (disappearing due to the EPA). It used to work better than it seems to in more recent years. Other people swear by POR. I have never used their products, but have to admit that they may be the way to go. This could also be a good discussion on AACA's general discussion section. Rust hits all marques and vintages. It has been discussed at great length on mtfca.com and they could be searched for quite a lot of good suggestions. Or it could again be a fresh discussion (although you may get a few people telling you to try searching old threads also). I don't want to steal away AACA's people too much. My apologies if I have offended anyone here. Both sites have their advantages, and best audience. Quite a few regulars there are on here a lot also. I wander around here occasionally. Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
  10. Important note; Before removing a model T starter to perform any sort of maintenance to it, REMOVE THE BENDIX ASSEMBLY from the back end of the starter. Failure to do so may result in serious damage to the magneto coil (if the T still has one). Repair or replacement of the magneto coil is a MUCH bigger job than removing a starter. So you do not wish to damage it. Glad I looked in here and saw the recent addition. Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2 (A regular on the mtfca.com forum. Yes, it is a great place for model T people.
  11. There were probably literally hundreds of different accessories made to mount onto radiator caps along with the popular MotoMeter. Boyce made a lot of them. Most of them were made by other companies. There were probably a dozen different sets of wings to mount between the MotoMeter and the cap, similarly to yours. A couple styles have been reproduced off and on for a half century now, and more of them are repros by now than are era originals. The ones you have shown, I am not aware of having been reproduced (but they may have been, I certainly do not know everything). They are more rare, or unusual at least, than most. And I think that makes them more desirable. There has been a set like these on and off eBad for several months this past year. Could these be them? I have seen maybe a dozen like this at swap meets over the past 45 years. Most of them were broken. Yours look great! Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
  12. There is a lot of great history about Paige. Harry Jewett refused to race cars to promote the brands (other than a few endurance runs to promote the Jewett and simple speed runs for the 6-66 Paige in the '20s). However, others, including E L Cord of Auburn/Cord /Duesenberg fame, did race them quite successfully. From 1913 until 1927, they lost money in only one year. Very few automobile manufacturers can make a claim like that other than Ford and a few like Studebaker that had already been in successful business for decades before getting into automobiles (Dodge had made a fortune for ten years building chassis and parts for Ford before they built under their own name). For one year, shortly before selling out to the Graham Brothers, Paige/Jewett, against a hundred other companies, made the top ten Automobile manufacturers in the United States. Although referred to as an assembled car, they were well engineered, well built, most maajor parts unique to Paige/Jewett, and for the money, a good value. Actually, then and now. A fellow I know, toured with Pierce Arrows for several years. He bought a 1921 Paige (very similar to the one for sale), and found that he liked touring with the Paige even better. http://www.wcroberts.org/Paige_History.html for an independent website devoted to Paige. (I hope the posted link works, I am not that good with computers) There used to be a Jewett registry website, however it has died in the past year. I believe that I heard the fellow running it had died earlier. I guess the family gave up on it. The book 'The Graham Legacy: Graham-Paige to 1932' by Michael E Keller is the best single source that I know of for Paige and Jewett history. THIS IS MY OPINION AND MAY BE OFFENSIVE TO SOME: Unfortunately, I have found that the Graham Owners Club International has not been very accepting of Paige and Jewett automobile owners in the past. This, in spite of the fact that they state that Paige and Jewett owners are welcome. I have checked their forum only a few times in the past ten years because several Paige owners that attempted to participate were pretty much ignored. Coke bottle collectors were welcomed much better by many people because the Graham brothers invented the machine that made the famous Coke Cola bottle possible. That was where the Grahams made their first fortune leading them to work toward producing automobiles. Roto Tiller owners were welcomed with open arms because the Graham brothers were instrumental in developing and producing them after WWII. Paige and Jewett automobiles were produced by someone else, and often treated as unwanted distant cousins. Just me? I am not generally that thin-skinned. About a half dozen people with very nice Paige automobiles received NO responses to their postings with photos of their nice cars. Frankly, I wouldn't have cared that much for myself. My Paige is not nice enough and needs too much work for me to care that much for myself. If I live long enough (beginning to look doubtful), maybe I will get my Paige done. Anyway, my apologies if I offended any Graham owners (they are good automobiles and deserve recognition). I really would like to see a better resource for Paige and Jewett owners. Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
  13. I find that the "best match" and their suggestions are all completely useless. Their computers and their programmers know NOTHING about antique automobiles. Just be grateful that you are not searching for "Paige" memorabilia and/or literature. I have a 1927 Paige five passenger sedan. Try it sometime. Remember that I can't search too restrictedly, because I would not find most of what is there. But be aware that many of the listings they show you may contain rather objectionable photos. Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
  14. I agree with sambarn a bit about this thread wandering off a bit. The question was about such cars being common in the late '20s and early '30s. However, much of the discussion has been about the history leading up to the cars of '29/'30. I have heard these referred to by several names, including Victoria coupes, but usually as opera coupes. Buick probably built the most of these. I have personally known about a half dozen, and seen photos of probably thirty surviving examples built from 1924 through 1931. Most well known automobile manufacturers of the '20s offered this style for at least a couple years, mostly somewhere between 1923 and 1927, although the style went back to near the beginning of major automobile production. I have seen a couple 1912 Cadillacs, I think a 1914 White, and a few other brass era marques restored and on tour. A good friend of mine has a 1921 Marmon, another friend a 1920 (?) Pierce Arrow. I have ridden in these as well as a couple of the Buicks. Yet another friend has a 1925 Pierce Arrow series 80 opera coupe. They are beautiful cars, and not very common. However, not terribly rare as a whole either. Although the back seat is fairly small, people were smaller back then also. Most literature I have seen refers to these cars as four passenger. Remember, the average mid-size sedan of that era was considered to be a five passenger car. The 5-passenger sedan back seat is larger, but not that much. I personally find it interesting that this question surrounds Graham Paige, as I have a 1927 (pre Graham) Paige automobile. With some interest in Paige history, the only "Paige, Graham Built" car I ever saw up close was an opera coupe on the same chassis as my 6-45 Paige 5-passenger sedan. The "Paige Graham Built" was only produced for a short time in the latter half of 1927 and early 1928. Other than the name badges, the cars were almost identical to the 1927 Paige regardless of the model or body style. I have not seen that car for about 30 years, and do not know what became of it. It was being restored at that time. I had heard later that it was finished, toured, and shown, and that it looked good. But I never saw it done. Another little side note about the body style. A few after-market body suppliers actually offered such bodies for model T Fords. Several survive, I have seen two up close. These, again like the Buicks etc, are not full classics. As to the actual original question? Three of the Buicks I have known were 1930 or '31. I also saw a 1930 Cadillac opera coupe once. I believe a 1930ish Auburn and a Packard also. Pierces, Packards, and Auburns, were full classics. Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
  15. Where are these parts located? A few things I could surely use, but shipping costs can be a real killer! Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
  16. It appears to be about 1925 to 1929. Four-wheel mechanical brakes (I can't tell for certain)? Four lug clamps per wheel? What size are the wheels and tires? That could help a lot. So would the wheel base if you have an opportunity to measure it. If you can identify it, it could have some value to someone restoring a similar car. Probably not a lot of dollar value, but real value is not dollars. Good luck! Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
  17. 23hack, Sorry that I haven't responded. Basically, computers and I do not get along nearly as well as model Ts and I do. For the most part, I hate computer programmers. They grew up wasting their childhoods playing "Super Mario Brothers" and believe that everyone likes to play hide and seek with everything on the screen. Most people DO NOT want to play hide and seek with their computer programs. Most people want programs that do the job that they are supposed to do, and they want people that provide services to keep the promises they make. About the time I begin getting used to a system, someone changes everything and hides how I used to do things. I tried to respond via AACA PMs and wound up I don't know where with nothing to write a response on. Enough ranting out of me. Is your Paige a 6-72? 6-70? 4-door? 2-door? Is it running /driveable now? Do you recall what source the photos you saw were from? There is a fair amount of information out there, but most of it is not assembled very much and therefore difficult to find. About ten years ago, I tried to collect a bunch of literature that was showing up on eBad, but someone kept outbidding me. I did get several things pertaining to my 6-45 sedan because I got determined to bid high enough. Other things, whoever they were, they had a lot more money to play with than I did. I hope they have a wonderful collection and take good care of it. Paige is a greatly under-rated car that should have a bigger following in the hobby than it does. In an industry that was notorious for corporate bankruptcies, they made a profit in all but one year from 1913 until they sold out to the Grahams. Only a handful of automobile manufacturers did so well. Generally, they very well built, fast and reliable, and usually in the top ten percent of producers. It is interesting to me, that a fellow I know has had several Pierce Arrows for many years. He bought a 6-66 Paige touring car on a whim and decided he likes to drive it better than the Pierces. My car still needs a lot of work before it will be of any real value, but it was a solid rebuildable original needing a full restoration. It is about half done now, but hasn't had much work done for a couple decades. I have begun to work on it again, so who knows. Meanwhile, I guess I will have to drive my model Ts. And do keep in touch. Best to do so with direct email. Usually, I can figure out how to do that. Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
  18. One of my 'favorite" (I am sick of it) subjects. The reality is that most automotive terms developed over many years and have meant different things to different people at different times. Basically, in the earlier decades of automobiles, there was no such thing as a "touring sedan" or a "coupe roadster". These are some sort of run-on term applied by people that do not know what they are talking about and generally are too lazy to care enough to learn anything. Many people (40 to 60 years ago) wound up with cars, many of whom wanted to either sell it or brag about it. One seat (front only) was either a coupe or roadster, and if you couldn't understand the difference between a fixed solid roof, a fold-down open car, or convertible with windows, it became a "coupe roadster". Two seats (a front and a back) similarly became "touring sedan". I recall too many times about forty years ago phoning on advertised antique automobiles thinking I was inquiring about a touring only to find out it was a sedan. Then being told that I didn't know what I was talking about because it had a back seat so therefore it was a touring when in fact it had a solid roof and was what had been originally called a sedan. Confused yet? So am I. But I do not think that the best thing to do was run two terms together so that nobody learns what to call it. And, of course, ALL of the previous responders are also correct. Many cars were called "touring sedans" originally by their manufacturers. Generally speaking, it was sedans with a large trunk to carry luggage while on long trips, which is where one definition of the word touring came from. The Jaguar XJ6 I used to have was called a touring sedan (a fact which annoyed me because of the miss-use of the term with early automobiles, but it did have a huge trunk). Touring cars, as some of us (including me) think of them, were called that before the automobile was used on long trips very often, and therefore, called that for different reasons. By 1905, the name had stuck. Some people argue that the alternate term "phaeton" would be better. I might agree with them, but I tend to prefer to use the terms used originally by most manufacturers. It is a problem, with all the twists and turns through the decades. But language is supposed to mean something. If I read about a 1937 Packard touring sedan, I should be able to trust that it has a nice, large, trunk built into the body on the back. Earlier cars? A solid, fixed, roof or a fold-down soft top is not that difficult to figure out. Coupe-roadster? I have seen at least a hundred of them advertised. I have never seen anything to indicate that any such thing was ever built and sold back in the day. Bob Z, And you, my friend, are intelligent enough to ask. That makes you smarter than so many people. So please forgive my rant. Thank you. Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
  19. Only the two cylinder air-cooled Metz may (or may not) be the Plan Car. That is a four cylinder model 22. NOT a Plan Car.
  20. In 1914, Metz offered a "speedster" model (their name). It usually had wire wheels. Google "Metz crossing the Grand Canyon" and you should be able to see several original photos of one. In 1913, Metz offered what they called a "Special Roadster" if I recall correctly. It looked a lot like your car with wood wheels and was a dark red in color (again, if I recall correctly). (I don't have my Metz information handy) SOME resources indicate that Metz may have offered wire wheels as an option for several years of the four cylinder models, however, I do not know that for sure. Wire wheels were available for some years of the two cylinder "Plan" cars as well as the 1914 Speedster. The Metz would be a nice car to have. I wish I could be interested in it. Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
  21. Okay, I have to say this. Over many years in this hobby, I have seen way too many cars claimed as "the only one like it ever built" for way too many dumb reasons. About 40 years ago, I said it to someone for the first time. I have probably repeated it well over a hundred times. "There were more only one like it ever built cars made than there were model T Fords made between 1908 and 1927. Actually, given all the many minor changes, cross-over manufacturing times for those changes, custom bodied delivery trucks, some speedsters (I am not counting the ones cut down later, only new chassis with after-market or professional-built bodies), plus the after-market accessories sold on new cars by the Ford dealer, at least a million of those only one like it when new cars WERE model T Fords!" Now. I do not mean to insult anyone by all that. But frankly, nearly half the cars I have ever owned were probably the "only one like it ever built", or "the only one like it surviving" (although I am not about to bother trying to prove it). And none of them were anything really special. Not even the 1921 Sayers touring car (ever seen one?) or my one-off blacksmith-built ca 1900 gasoline carriage. The gasoline carriage is one about 400 "one-off" cars documented as built in a three year period, 1898 through1900. I have the list. A long-time good friend of mine had the only one surviving of two built 1927 Cadillac Fleetwood limousines. He sold it years ago to buy a 1926 Rolls Royce with a one-off custom body which he still has. Now. THAT is a car!!! Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
  22. Just a side-note. Earlier, I posted this as part of a response to a photo posted on another antique automobile website. I figured I should put this part of it here also. Just for whomever's interest. A side note about antique cars and seat covers. My 1927 Paige sedan (been in my family now for 47 years) has seat covers on both front and back bottom cushions. Years ago, I found an original 1928 issue dealer's parts book showing all the parts for my model Paige. The seat covers are listed in there as a factory option. Sadly, the original interior is in very poor condition, and must be replaced. But I always thought it was odd. Paige advertised as "The Most Beautiful Car in America", and did strive to live up to that slogan. The interior was originally beautiful, plush, mohair. The seat covers were ugly blue striped white heavy cloth like pillows and mattresses used to be covered in. It was kind of sad that those beautiful seats were covered up, from day one, and never enjoyed. I have begun working on the car a bit, and hope to get going on replacing the interior. I have toyed with the idea of replacing the seat covers even, if I get that far. But I probably won't. However, as long as I am around and have the car, the remains of the original covers will be kept to show what was there originally. I also wonder. Did many other (that early, much later was common) manufacturers sell cars new with seat covers? For what it is worth. Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
  23. Quick and dirty. The '19 to '23 coupes have suicide doors, hinged at the rear. They also have a rear trunk that attaches behind the "phone booth". The '24 and '25 coupes have doors hinged at the front, not suicide doors. The trunk is part of the passenger compartment of the body. Not an added on piece. In model Ts, the coupe had more changes (both major and minor) than I think any other body style all the way from 1915 clear to the end in 1927. My April 1924 coupe appears to be the third variation for coupes in 1924 model year alone. At least one more followed before the changes made for the '25 model. Seat risers, window riser mechanisms, and the required wood structure changes to accommodate the differing mechanisms. The windshield frame, the floorboard riser, all changed several times in two years time. A big one is that the '24 has heavy wood-framed doors. The '25 mostly used lighter all steel doors. The 1919 through most of 1923 Coupes are about as bad with frustrating changes to the body. But they are even nicer in the "cool car" department. I like the earlier ones better, but I like my '24 a lot! Coupes are well worth the issues of multiple changes. Some of them may be annoying while you try to figure it out, but then you discover that there really are several right answers. Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
  24. For what it is worth, about forty years ago, I had a similar REO Master Flying Cloud Semi-Sport Coupe. Mine was in considerably better condition than that. Drove and handled beautifully. It needed a fair amount of restoration (a lot less than this one) and I was deciding it was a bit too new for my tastes. I was getting some cars from earlier in the '20s and working my way toward horseless carriages. Still, I remember my REO fondly. I drove it to high school, and club tours for a few years. I could probably get talked into buying one like this if it were two thousand miles closer and about five thousand dollars cheaper (or a lot better condition). Really a good car. Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
  25. I must say, the response from whtbaron is one of the things I was looking for. I do want people that want to build these "in between" cars to have a place to feel at home. If that is to be a corner of the AACA, so be it. I don't know if whtbaron can answer for many of the regulars on the Speedster section or not. I do wonder if the many (any or most?) of those there would be offended by some comments I could be tempted to make? (It is nearly impossible to offend me). I really don't want to rain on anybodies parade there, but I do think people should understand the difference between historically restored or preserved cars and other things whether they are hotrods or what. Other responses/comments. In a sense, speedsters are definitely the forerunners of hotrods. However, there are a few key differences. The word "speedster" was one of the commonly used words for such cars way back in the day. They were also known as "bugs", "cut-downs", simply "race (or racing) cars" and at least a dozen less common names. The word "speedster" is the most commonly recognized and fitting term today. The term "hotrod" was coined (according to legend) about 1947 or '48. The big difference between them, however, is that with a speedster, you take a regular car. The first thing you do is throw away the body! You use the basic chassis with or without modifications to help performance. You buy or build a body that resembles a race car of some type. It is fast! It handles well! It (hopefully) looks good! With a hotrod, you take the same car, keep the body, throw away the chassis, and replace it with parts that are ten to fifty or more years newer. During the "speedster era", you could not replace anything with something much newer. Speedsters were usually built from cars only a few years old, although sometimes they could be about ten years old. Any more than that was rare. Many speedsters were even built upon new chassis. It is one of those things that has been discussed (argued) for a long time. Many people with a lot of interest in the history of speedsters believe that the speedster era ended either with the introduction of the new model A Ford for 1928 or the crash of '29. In truth, it has never ended, just dwindled down a lot. The first speedsters were built shortly after 1900, almost as soon as there were cars available complete enough to cut down. The first "model T" speedsters were built in 1908 by Ford's design and development departments to road test the experimental T chassis. In 1909, Ford built two special cars in the model T plant alongside the rest of the cars. These two cars were run in the race from New York to Seattle in 1909. In 1910, several dealers across the country built cars for local exhibitions. By 1911, everybody was getting into the act and model T speedsters have been built in every calender year since and probably on for many more years to come. Certainly, model T speedsters are one of the longest running automotive related hobbies. As to the H.A.M.B. I previously stated that many hotrodders do understand the difference between antiques and hotrods. There are several long-running threads on the H.A.M.B. that are all about racing cars of various types and the history surrounding them. I am quite impressed by their knowledge and passion for the subject of early racing. I have a couple of the threads bookmarked and look in on them occasionally. For me, I am an antique automobile guy and lean toward the horseless carriage era. I also like speedsters. But I like them to be as era correct as most antique automobiles that are still driven.