cpf240

Dibarlaw: Thank you for the pictures and descriptions. The car is presently in Arizona, near Bullhead. I live in the Far North of Idaho, and so only get to work on the car when we visit. My thought was to get the pump out, and take it home with me to work on. It sounds like these are more involved than just ordering all the parts one needs from the many suppliers out there for the T or A. I’m guessing there aren’t as many vendors for early Buick parts. I have a lot to learn!

Hello everyone, I had some time to poke at this again today, and came away with some observations and questions… After reconnecting the battery, I was able to observe the starter ‘motoring’. I wish I’d understood this better last year, as then the troubleshooting would have been much quicker. On the sg end of the pump shaft, I presume the cover on sg housing where the shaft enters will have to be slid along the pump shaft for the coupling to move forward once the taper pin is removed. Is that correct? What keeps the taper pin in place on the sg end of the shaft? My FIL had placed a hose clamp over it. Is it not held captive in the same way as the one on the timing gear end? It looks like it is a bit of a bear to read/see the timing marks through that inspection cover on the top bell housing. Any tips? Lastly, where is a good place to purchase the parts needed to rebuild the pump? Thank you!

Rod is correct, if I rotate the pump body, I can then turn the engine with the hand crank until the pump comes into contact with the block. Thank you very much for the detailed information! I’m going to look through my FIL’s spare parts, as there could be a spare pump out there. If not, rebuild parts might be. Two questions for you guys then: 1) How to keep the timing when doing the R&R? 2) Where to buy rebuild parts? Thanks!

Hubert: Thank you very much for your response! Does this picture help? I presume the rear taper pin in your photo is the protrusion on top of the piece the rear shaft sits in just in front of the distributor? For some reason, there is a hose clamp in that location on this car.

Hello all, I’ve finally had the chance to look into this problem once again. I pulled the top off the housing for the starter gear, and it was not stuck. Still cannot turn engine over with the hand crank, no movement at all. As suggested, we drained the coolant and loosened the two hoses at the water pump. I also removed the clamp holding the pump to the block, and backed off the packing nut on the back of the pump. After some effort, the pump housing can be rotated as far as the block allows it to move. Turning the hand crank is now possible until the pump housing reaches the limits of its freedom. I do believe the shaft from the pump to the distributor moves a bit as well. Now I’m trying to understand why the pump body can be moved, yet the crank only turns until the pump housing reaches the limits of it’s movement. If the impeller was frozen, I’d think the housing wouldn’t move at all. I’m happy to hear any and all thoughts and advice! Thank you!

I know we all like pictures, so here are a few of the 23-6-54...

Hubert: Yes, on the '27 I was referring to the lever under the choke knob. I was following a printed starting procedure my father-in-law left in the car. One of the things it said was to move that lever to 'hot' once it started. I *think* that lever uses a cable to change the position of whatever valve provides the heat. It is hard to move between the middle setting and all the way up to hot, and it won't move down from the middle setting. Sadly, I don't know where the printed starting instructions came from, it appears to be a page from a book. Back to the '23... I wish I had taken a picture of the linkage at the starter. I'm having a hard time reconciling my recollection of it with the pictures and video dibarlaw provided. As I recall, it appears to be one piece on the top of that gear set that also supports the linkage, which is why I was reluctant to get into it with the little time I had. Perhaps it would look different from inside the car. I didn't take the carpet out. I'll be looking into it again the next time I am there. Its making me crazy not being able to work on it. Thank you!

Brian: Thank you for the suggestions. I know that my father-in-law rebuilt this car from the ground up, and that would have included a full tear down of the starter. Rod & Hubert: This car was running prior to 2016, when he passed away. While it has always been stored in a garage, it hasn’t had much care in the last few years. Last thanksgiving I tried to start 3 of his cars. The T started easily. The ‘27 Buick run briefly, as I missed the fuel valve on the glass bowl. Couldn’t get it restarted after that. The ‘23 Buick turned over, but never fired. Last week the T was easy, the ‘27 started and ran perfectly, though I feel the carb heat cable is hanging up. I was surprised it would die if I tried to move it off Hot even after running for a while. On the ‘23, I don’t recall hearing the starter ‘motor’ when the ignition was on. When I pressed the starter pedal, the gears engaged, and there was a brief grunt from the starter. Realizing it was stuck, I scrambled to disconnect the battery. The ground strap was smoking, and the starter got warm/hot. Not being completely familiar with this starter system, I don’t know at this point if the starter brushes were stuck, or if it did switch back to the generator brush when I released the pedal. I can’t recall at what point I switched off the ignition. As the generator brush is somehow activated by the ignition switch, wouldn’t the smaller gauge wires have gotten hot and melted if the starter gear got stuck? I can say that I no longer get sparks if I try to reconnect the ground strap, though the ignition is off. Being cautious, I left it disconnected for now. Operating the pedal, I can see the bar move that switches the brushes. I did pull the plugs and try to hand crank it. No movement at all. As this was a brief trip to moms, I didn’t have time to pull the cover off as shown in the pictures posted here. I was also unsure how much of the linkage, etc that would have to be removed. Not to mention the carpet. We may be back there again next month, so I’d love to have a solid plan of action It was painful having to leave it in this condition. One side note, mom said she remembers having to rock the car to get the starter unstuck in the past. She also said this was a common problem with this system. I don’t know about that, I just want to get it corrected. These cars will be moving into my care, and it seems Buick info, parts, etc are harder to come by than for the T or my fathers A. Thank you all for your help!

Dibarlaw: Thank you for the motoring explanation. That makes sense, and I’ll have to see if it does that. Morgan: Thank you for that video! To get in to see those gears, are there other things that need to be removed? Other than carpet and floorboards of course. Is it common for the starter to stay engaged, electrically I mean, when this happens? It got pretty warm and the ground strap was smoking. Somehow the brushes moved after fiddling with it, but I didn’t see it happen. I’m thinking it needs some lubrication, but am not clear on what to put where. The cover on the rear of the starter is off. Thank you!

Jfranklin: I did not try the hand crank before trying the starter. The starter was turning it over last November, though I didn’t get it to start then. dibarlaw : Thanks for those pictures and explanation! When you talk about it motoring, how/when should it do that? I’m familiar with that term as it applies to a Model A generator, but didn’t know these will do that too.

Hello, I’m trying to start my father-in-law’s 1923 Buick, which I believe is a model 54 with a 6 cylinder engine. He had restored it several years ago, but it hasn’t been started in at least 2 years after his passing. When I pressed the starter pedal, there was a brief grunt from the starter and nothing else. The starter stuck engaged, and it was a scramble to get the smoking ground cable disconnected from the battery. I tried the hand crank, but it won’t budge. My thought is that whatever engages between the starter and flywheel is stuck. The starter pedal linkage seems to move freely, and now it appears that the rod that moves the brushes is out of the starter position. No sparks if I touch the ground strap to the battery. Any insight on how this system works, and how to resolve it? And yes, it is in neutral, and the clutch was depressed when attempting to operate the starter. Thank you!

John, Thank you for your response. Yes, it currently has the wooden spoke wheels, for which he had to make all the spokes. The wire wheels are from the Wire Wheel Corp. of America, Buffalo, NY, which I believe was the company that came after Houk. The image in the Buick parts book for the wire wheel hub looks like this one, but it is pretty hard to see any real detail in that book.

Hello all, Visited with my father-in-law this past weekend. He was able to make the sunshield adjustment bolts that I had asked about here before, so thank you for the help in that area. Now we have some new questions. He has a set of wire wheels that are supposed to be for this car, but no information on if they are in fact correct, and how they are supposed to mount. He had one of the hubs out for us to look at, the rest are in storage. This hub looks like the one in the Buick parts book which identifies this one as a front hub. We found this a bit confusing, as we had assumed it was for the rear, and the flange was for the brake drum. I think we figured out of the, for lack of a better description, locking hub works. He does not have the hub wrench for the wire wheel hub, but we did find some pictures online. Without instructions, I'm assuming that the wrench is placed on the hub, and then the lever in the middle of the span is somehow used to pull up on the pin that holds the locking hub together, thus freeing the hub to be removed, etc. I know this probably sounds confusing... We are looking for instructions, pictures, etc to verify he has the correct parts, and how to properly install them. Secondly, we are trying to determine if the clamp used to hold the convertible top in its stowed position is correct for the car, as well as how it is to be mounted and used. There is a post sticking out of the side of the body, behind the door, that we believe is where this clamp goes. Thank you very much for your time and assistance!

That is perfect! Thank you very much!

Thank you for your response. That is pretty much what I had assumed it would be. If you would post a picture of it, that would be greatly appreciated!